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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:15 am
Posts: 793
Location: Central Coast, N.S.W, Australia
See Chart

9 pucks = engagement @ 2700

6 pucks = engagement @ 3350

you sure it came with 9 puck


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comet94c_spring_chart_255.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
wyeeoddy wrote:
See Chart

9 pucks = engagement @ 2700

6 pucks = engagement @ 3350

you sure it came with 9 puck


No I am not sure but just wondered why it came with nine slots but only six pucks but now you have answered that question for me. It probably did only have six. THX for the info.


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
No real rocks?

Here..... allow me to be a wise ass.... rocks are those small little round things that are laying all over the road! LOL :-)

Those little critters will play havoc on a clutch. All it takes is one the size of a marble to do some damage.

Rand


These are what I call rocks and they are in the middle of the road so pay attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3760
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Have you checked to see IF your puck #'s are all the same?
IF one is out,then it will be outa balance and affect the puck throw/movement.
You NEED to get a digi scale to weigh your pucks,it's the ONLY way to verify their weights.EVEN if new.
A small amount in weight diff,will be expotential relative to clutch RPM's.
Especially as now you have damaged them.
I have a small digi sacle,weight all my flyweights in the sledPilots,I have seen diffs in them up to .5g.

Did you mark your holding bolt head to cover with sharpie,to show any bolt loosening?
After initial bolt torqueing,do you RETORQUE after a settling-in ride?


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
bugeye59 wrote:
Have you checked to see IF your puck #'s are all the same?
IF one is out,then it will be outa balance and affect the puck throw/movement.
You NEED to get a digi scale to weigh your pucks,it's the ONLY way to verify their weights.EVEN if new.
A small amount in weight diff,will be expotential relative to clutch RPM's.
Especially as now you have damaged them.
I have a small digi sacle,weight all my flyweights in the sledPilots,I have seen diffs in them up to .5g.

Did you mark your holding bolt head to cover with sharpie,to show any bolt loosening?
After initial bolt torqueing,do you RETORQUE after a settling-in ride?


I did see numbers on the pucks but didn't know what they mean. I think they were all the same. I don't have a digi scale but didn't know that even if new you need to check them. This is all good info and I am learning new poo every day about these machines thx. No I don't mark the bolts or retorque after a run. Let it blow up, I'll fix it. Good idea though because I do this at work.


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
My next question is:
How the hell does a clutch open up enough to let the pucks turn over ??
Wouldn't the engineers not allow that ?? WTF.
Off to work now to see what the engineers missed again.


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
wyeeoddy wrote:
See Chart

9 pucks = engagement @ 2700

6 pucks = engagement @ 3350

you sure it came with 9 puck



See this is where I might be inclined to experiment a little if it came with 9 pucks drill a 3/8 hole in the center of each one to reduce weight so it will raise the engagement yet offer more strength, yet at the same time offer more drag because of the friction the extra pucks create, if the engagement was still to low drill it to 1/2" ...

I don't recall 6 pucks ever being a problem with these clutches ???? They always seem reliable when lubricated with the Comet Clutch Lube occasionally I was going to try and find the correct offset and try one on my Pilot but never did about the time I needed another Power Bloc clutch that's when Ludedude did the group buy on the Power Bloc's and I bought two then later bought a 1/2 of one on the cheap because the box broke open in shipping and parts were missing. Soon as I use up the Power Bloc's I have will research a 94C for the Pilot.

:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
hoser wrote:
wyeeoddy wrote:
See Chart

9 pucks = engagement @ 2700

6 pucks = engagement @ 3350

you sure it came with 9 puck



See this is where I might be inclined to experiment a little if it came with 9 pucks drill a 3/8 hole in the center of each one to reduce weight so it will raise the engagement yet offer more strength, yet at the same time offer more drag because of the friction the extra pucks create, if the engagement was still to low drill it to 1/2" ...

I don't recall 6 pucks ever being a problem with these clutches ???? They always seem reliable when lubricated with the Comet Clutch Lube occasionally I was going to try and find the correct offset and try one on my Pilot but never did about the time I needed another Power Bloc clutch that's when Ludedude did the group buy on the Power Bloc's and I bought two then later bought a 1/2 of one on the cheap because the box broke open in shipping and parts were missing. Soon as I use up the Power Bloc's I have will research a 94C for the Pilot.

:-)


Where can you get spare pucks ??


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
canadian oddy wrote:
hoser wrote:
wyeeoddy wrote:
See Chart

9 pucks = engagement @ 2700

6 pucks = engagement @ 3350

you sure it came with 9 puck



See this is where I might be inclined to experiment a little if it came with 9 pucks drill a 3/8 hole in the center of each one to reduce weight so it will raise the engagement yet offer more strength, yet at the same time offer more drag because of the friction the extra pucks create, if the engagement was still to low drill it to 1/2" ...

I don't recall 6 pucks ever being a problem with these clutches ???? They always seem reliable when lubricated with the Comet Clutch Lube occasionally I was going to try and find the correct offset and try one on my Pilot but never did about the time I needed another Power Bloc clutch that's when Ludedude did the group buy on the Power Bloc's and I bought two then later bought a 1/2 of one on the cheap because the box broke open in shipping and parts were missing. Soon as I use up the Power Bloc's I have will research a 94C for the Pilot.

:-)


Where can you get spare pucks ??


I would assume anybody that sells Comet parts like the springs. http://www.pmspolaris.com/comet-industr ... d=10465981

http://www.ennspowersports.com/comet-in ... d=10370402

Put the Google to it :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch explosion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
canadian oddy wrote:
My next question is:
How the hell does a clutch open up enough to let the pucks turn over ??
Wouldn't the engineers not allow that ?? WTF.
Off to work now to see what the engineers missed again.


At the end of the day I think the issue was my poor maintenance. I never lubed it.
I still question "How the hell does a clutch open up enough to let the pucks turn over ??"


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3760
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Why in this picture are your pucks placed in differently?
RHS at 1 & 2 o'clock,they should have the drop down angle/tier toward the inner hub.
Are you SURE your pucks are checked for proper position/placement BEFORE assembly and install onto crank???
IF NOT,then this is why your pucking it up!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3760
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
What I find really helps in all this buggy work/maintenance,is to take lots of pics of your work while servicing.
Store them in your computer for later reference.
Often you question yourself after something goes wrong,carnage...and in your case,I'm sure hoser has some frquent flyer points for ya? :-)
You can check your pics to see what/how you did it without taking apart stuff again.
Did I put the spring in the right way,what colour did I use,all my pucks orientated the same,piston install piston back to front,tongue held on the LHSide or right? :-)
Not only good for yourself,but a visual for others to help you with on this forum and other service net Co's.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Well I didn't puck up when I put it together cause my pictures on my computer looks like your clutch. What I don't know is if the clutch was put together correctly by factory. I never took it apart prior to installation when new. I highly doubt that the factory boo boo when they sent it which still leaves the question how the f do the pucks turn over ?? Design problem ?? In my eyes I would not allow enough clearance between the outside cone and the pucks to allow this to happen. The more I think about this the more I think the design is not perfect. I am a gambling man, I play at the world series of poker in Las Vegas every year (except the last two) and I bet that a puck hung up at the top when my brother was running full speed and when he dumped the throttle to make the 90' turn it got caught on a rib and rolled. The clutch was jammed full open at the time. I think the pucks can get to the top of the guides and snag. Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
I know exactly ZERO about those clutches, but I am interested in the first pic you posted of the clutch. The one where the halves are wedged open much farther on one side than the other. What allows this to happen? Is the bolt flexing? Is there enough slop in the assembly(bushing/shaft fit) to let it happen?

I wonder if the outer half starts to oscillate after long ,high rpm runs, allowing the outer half to wobble, which lets a puck out, like you said.

Next time your brother is driving, point a gopro at that thing and tell him to try to break it. :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:53 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
bullnerd wrote:
I know exactly ZERO about those clutches, but I am interested in the first pic you posted of the clutch. The one where the halves are wedged open much farther on one side than the other. What allows this to happen? Is the bolt flexing? Is there enough slop in the assembly(bushing/shaft fit) to let it happen?

I wonder if the outer half starts to oscillate after long ,high rpm runs, allowing the outer half to wobble, which lets a puck out, like you said.

Next time your brother is driving, point a gopro at that thing and tell him to try to break it. :-)


I like this idea.
I don't own a gopro but may be I have a spare digital around that I can use and mount.
If I get some video that may be useful, you guys will have to help me out in posting it to you tube. Don't know how to do this. Will keep you all updated but it will be a while because I can't get any 16mm rod ends with a 1.5 pitch anymore. This means I will have to make up something to get the machine running again. Probably cut the link arm apart and install a sleeve. It looks like it is just plug welded anyways so that's an easy fix. To damn hot here (86' and 40% humid) to ride now anyways, the dust will be bad too.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:14 pm 
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Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Can you show me a pic of all the pucks stacked/lined up together?
Do it so that the puck to cover side edge is exposed on all of them.
Also a pic showing all the sheave puck slide tracks,take the pic from above the sheave.
My bet is still on the pucks were not ALL installed correctly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:45 pm
Posts: 149
Location: cleveland oh
canadian oddy wrote:
The clutch was jammed full open at the time. I think the pucks can get to the top of the guides and snag. Just my opinion.
This is absolutely possible. It's what happens on mine.

The puck actually over extends and slips off the ramp. It then gets lodged between the 2 halves and the other pucks inside can spin. This was my problem on Memorial Day week end.

I was asked if the clutch was lubed too. I replied it was new and they are supposed to be almost maintenance free. I was told even new clutches may need lubed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:48 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
xlint89 wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
The clutch was jammed full open at the time. I think the pucks can get to the top of the guides and snag. Just my opinion.
This is absolutely possible. It's what happens on mine.

The puck actually over extends and slips off the ramp. It then gets lodged between the 2 halves and the other pucks inside can spin. This was my problem on Memorial Day week end.

I was asked if the clutch was lubed too. I replied it was new and they are supposed to be almost maintenance free. I was told even new clutches may need lubed.


Yeah I am sure the lube thing was my issue as well but just can't prove it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:51 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
bugeye59 wrote:
Can you show me a pic of all the pucks stacked/lined up together?
Do it so that the puck to cover side edge is exposed on all of them.
Also a pic showing all the sheave puck slide tracks,take the pic from above the sheave.
My bet is still on the pucks were not ALL installed correctly.


Well it is all together now but with all this blah blah on clutches I think I will take it apart and take some photos. Give me a few days though because they are on the trailer in my shop and can't unload them because one has a busted suspension arm hiem joint (see carnage continues thread).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:41 am 
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Before you run that clutch I strongly sugest you do some more checks.

1-The cover was badly deformed to one side,did you check it for squareness?
Place the cover on a flat surface and check that the edges are all on the flat and still perf round,also check the smaller top section and the doubleD sections for damage.

2- WEIGH your pucks!!! If they are not all same weight,then they will push out at diff rates on the cover.
There's a sledthread somewhere that documents how much a small tiny amount of weight diff eg .5-1g? makes on side weight force for every 1,000rpm increase.
It's amazing the expediential force/1k rpm increase,something like 250lbs+ side force at 8,000rpms.

3-Mark your bolt to cover to warn if bolt loosens up.

4-RETORQUE your bolt after some Go to Whoa accel/stops.Then remark your bolt/cover with sharpie line.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:01 am 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
bugeye59 wrote:
Can you show me a pic of all the pucks stacked/lined up together?
Do it so that the puck to cover side edge is exposed on all of them.
Also a pic showing all the sheave puck slide tracks,take the pic from above the sheave.
My bet is still on the pucks were not ALL installed correctly.


Well I couldn't take it. I unloaded the machines and took the clutch off. Here are some pics.
It looks bad. Pucks have some "dings". I also did an experiment because of curiosity. I removed the spring and put the belt between the shivs to the black felt wear mark I made months ago on the shivs. This simulates full open. I then grabbed a puck with needle nose pliers and pulled it to the cover. It didn't come out but there was a surprise. When I did this the puck slipped from the pliers and immediately fell on it's nose. In other words it rolled over. Pictures below. That got me thinking. If you are at top speed (64.3mph) and then unload the throttle to make a turn the centrifugal forces on the pucks drop fast. If the shiv hangs up because of poor lube it don't close up right away and therefore lets the pucks free float. I might be blowing poo out of my yap but that's what I believe happened in our case. We never lubed our clutch since new because I was under the belief that the 94c don't need it ------ wrong. In my opinion the 94c should be taken apart once in a while and lubed up good. P.S I like this clutch because it is very simple --- beautiful design. Moron engineers did a good job in my opinion. With regards to weighing the pucks, I still don't have a scale. F it, let her blow up and I will fix it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:06 am 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
More pics


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:16 am 
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Location: Central Coast, N.S.W, Australia
Can Oddy

With out the the clutch cover fix properly there is 1/4" the cover will go down
but you need the spring in it so you can get it apart.

I would still like to know the Clutch part number you got

as it looks like it is set up for a bigger belt

yeoddy


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:16 am 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
A few more


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:18 am 
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Two of the pucks have different numbers as you can see but I don't know what that means.
I also layed the cover on the bench and put a flashlight behind it to check for warpage.
You be the judge. We are screwed. Gona just run it and see how long it lives. Will make some real interesting video if I ever get around to it. :-)


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