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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Hoser,

Short answer, Yes. The upper mounts were moved down and inward slightly. I was having a little challenge attaining the camber gain I wanted.

Since I haven't crossed the suspension build bridge with my Pilot yet, I'm unfamiliar with challenges inherent with Pilots. I made another jig that is separate from the one pictured, in order to orient the Pilot mounting points on the oddy. I used the jig when tacking the mounts on. Before welding anything complete, I articulated the suspension, the control arm arcs were not where they provided the best characteristics.

Rotating the upper mounts downward addressed the issue I was experiencing.

IMHO the variation on my build is to be expected as everything is hand made.

Can I ask, is there a common challenge with Pilots in regard to the front suspension?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Just looking at those pics makes me think that machine with the slightly wider front end is gona steer real good. I think that machine will take a set well.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
The front is actually 2" narrower then the rear. The width is an optical illusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Awesome job Meth, I didn't expect anything less.

To anyone looking at these pics that doesn't tig weld.....those welds are no JOKE! That is seriously hard to do!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
methodical wrote:
Hoser,

Short answer, Yes. The upper mounts were moved down and inward slightly. I was having a little challenge attaining the camber gain I wanted.

Since I haven't crossed the suspension build bridge with my Pilot yet, I'm unfamiliar with challenges inherent with Pilots. I made another jig that is separate from the one pictured, in order to orient the Pilot mounting points on the oddy. I used the jig when tacking the mounts on. Before welding anything complete, I articulated the suspension, the control arm arcs were not where they provided the best characteristics.

Rotating the upper mounts downward addressed the issue I was experiencing.

IMHO the variation on my build is to be expected as everything is hand made.

Can I ask, is there a common challenge with Pilots in regard to the front suspension?


I am no suspension expert, but going from stock shocks and arms to 2.5" longer arms and the air shocks made a 100% improvement to the front suspension, Honda could have made the foot tub 3" narrower (1.5" each side) and I doubt any owner would have missed the foot space this would allow you to move the mounts in another 1.5" now if you look at how Honda installed the mounts you could gain another 1" if they moved the mount points under the tube rather than outside the tube, Honda could have made the front arms 5" longer re-positioned the mounts gained 2-2.5" and the front width would have been 5" wider than stock and ended up with 11-12" travel from the factory.

I have a Pilot frame that has front end damage that could use your tweaking :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Hoser, I truly appreciate the compliment. PM sent :)

Your observations on the factory mounts are all but identical to the ones I made. Looking at the entire front assembly I tried to imagine what was being contemplated with each decision for mounting or triangulating etc. I guess I can only try to understand what is...and move forward with what will be.

Switching gears, here are a few pics of the control arms I'm fabbing up. The pics are starting to catch up with my progress....I better get building.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Man I need a new garage. nice stuff


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Thanks...I guess it's my "mancave" lol...

I'm hoping to make progress this weekend. The goal is to get the arms finished, shock mounts made and start brain storming on the steering set up.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
Im most interested in your steering as well. Any plans for power steering?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Fully,
The steering rack is the area I welcome all input on. I know it has been done with varrying success. I have located end mount heim ends that look identical to inner tie rod ends found on most modern automotive rack and pinions. Additionally I have sourced linear motion bearings. These are bearing assemblies designed to facilitate a rod to slide through it. Very cool finds, both items.

Next, I have several thoughts on the interface between the column and the "rack" part of the steering assembly. It seems that others that have built nice setups but when they accumulate dirt, the steering effort goes through the roof. My thought was to build an open rack and pinion and only seal the linear motion bearings. With no enclosure, there is a reduced space for dirt to gather...Thoughts??

Power steering. Well, this one is totally open. I have never riden a buggy that has it. Anyone have input on power steering. Mudbogger's pilot I'm working on has a set up, so I have a fundamental idea of what Im dealing with, but is it worth the money. It seems that if I nail the geometry of the front end, the buggy should all but steer itself. Those with a power set up...chime in here.. (please)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:33 pm
Posts: 945
Location: Rhode Island
I have seen a LT FL350 with the linear bearing setup and was thinking about it for my build also. I didn't ride the buggy but it did turn almost effortlessly on flat ground. My fear was the dirt with the linear bearing. The tie rod continuously passing through it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
i know there is some real haters of powers steering on here. but those that have it seem to love it.
i thought about a rack for mine when i did my conversion, but i was sure on how to go about it so i just went with the tie rod set up. seems to work fine, but i think i am going to redo the the steering flags, when i hit a pot hole or ruts in the sand it pulls hard that way, mostly due to the way my inner tie rods are mounted. outer tie rod has more leverage than the inner and turns the steering wheel in a heck of a hurry lol


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Fully,
Have you evaluated your scrub radius?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
No I haven't.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
I figured I'd throw some more pics up, show alittle progress. These are in no particular order. Some showing suspension travel, which will be fine tuned when I modify the spindles. I still need to mount the shocks, and I've been doing my normal..stare at it, till it comes to you thing, with the steering rack..
Suspension hanging free
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suspension up
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suspension hanging low measurement. Will go further each way up/down with work to spindle
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Junk foot tub I use for fit up
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
"stare at it, till it comes to you thing" LOL! I take forever doing this sometimes.

Have you seen the "rack" pictures that have been posted here in the past?

Are you using those front rims or are they just to set it on the ground?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
I've seen the rack pics that are on this site. Honestly that's what gave me the idea to move in that direction. At this point those are the rims I will be using. However, in one of the firsts posts in this build I mentioned I'd talk more about the scrub radius later. Well, I've been looking to see what rims are available that have more offset. I have a feeling the rims on there now are going to give me that wondering effect I dislike oh so much!. They are 7" wide with 3.5" offset. I'd like to see this in the 4 to 4.5" range. Need to do the geometry and see what offset gets me closest to an acceptable place.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Yeah, I read your linear bearing idea. Sounds good to me as long as they are real heavy duty. I have done a lot with Thompson linear bearings building scanning bridges in the past. Ive seen the bearings scatter from not much side load. I hope it works, sounds really cool.

I don't own a pilot or ody but have a lot of seat time in them. The larger offset is tough on your hands. Bumps will try to break your thumbs. You might be able to overcome this with the "rack", I don't know. Plus more offset equals longer arms!

I'll try to find a pic of my buggy just for reference.

Crappy pic, but you can see, everything is inside the rim.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Yes, now that's offset! I like it. I kept the arms on the longer side, anticipating atleast another inch of offset. I went with the 2006 trx spindles due to the ball joint orientations.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Bullnerd, sorry was in a meeting could only get a short reply off. So all of the items you bring up are great. They are the items members should be considering when undertaking a front suspension build. I do not have any experience with the linear bearings, however I have a design of my own I came up with if the ones I buy fail.. But I will learn something either way, right?

For this build I choose to use the 2006 TRX spindle instead of the 2004/05, due to several of it's measurements. The good thing for me is that I have the ability to fab a new arm or this or that should my original design fail. Calculating KPA, Hub height, KPH, etc, it seems to support that approximately another 1" offset on my wheels should be good.. With my overall system, I fret that your offset might be a little to much for my geometry, or it might not.. This will be a good test of the design process I used. I'll need to follow-up all said and done as to weather I made out good, or it called for a total re-fab..LOL

At this point I'm going over my shock mounts. The ideal location just seems out of place. I guess I'll see what I come up with. Stay tuned.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
I've been making slow but steady progress. The real issue is the totality of the items on my plate. Patience I guess... I have the a- arms all welded up and have started designing the shock mounts. I took a few pics of where they will approximately sit to give an idea of how they will look. I've also been working on the design of my steering set-up. Oh man the ideas I have.. hope one of them works.

A strange thought crossed my mind as I was staring at the buggy picturing items completed. I once read/heard that on the pilot due to the outward canted upper arm, cycling of the suspension would cause caster changes. As I envision the front suspension going from bump to full bump, I say, wait, the arms move in unison and relative to one another...hum. I broke out my digital angle finder and placed it on the spindle with the suspension fully extended, I then pushed the arms up as far as they would go. Wanna guess what I observed.. The caster stayed the same.. no declining caster with suspension cycling. I will be exploring this further. I think I'm going to put the stock arms on my pilot and try the same experiment, then put the long travel arms on my same pilot and try it again. There has got to be something to learn here.

Bullnerd, I have stared at the pic of your front spindle/wheel set up way to long.. There are a few observations I've made that seem rather important as we lead others thought the design process of front ends. As much as I agree with certain necessities and geometric imperatives when it comes to proper handling, all of the parts of a system are important to the whole. As I look at your spindle I see that the king pin is almost in plane with the lower control arm. The importance thus lies in where your upper control arm pivot mount is located and it's angular relation to king pin height and hub angle. If your set up did not have the major wheel offset it did, it would be a monster to drive. Envisioning a line passing from your upper pivot mount, through the lower pivot mount continuing to the intersection point with the ground, based on your tire diameter, less offset would be bad. Take a look at my set up and envision the same. As I contemplated already,I do not believe my set up would benefit from such radical offset. We will see though. I'll try a stock pilot rim on my set up and the aftermarket. If necessity calls for it, I will have a custom set of rims made.

If you can allocate the time. I truly think we will all benefit from having you take one of your front wheels off and offering us a better view of the spindle/hub set up and it's relationship to offset. I know I would find it to be a hoot.
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easier to see the front is narrower then rear
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:13 pm
Posts: 4
Looking good! My question is why cut up a oem bike? Why not just make a new frame all together cause it looks like you have the skill and tools to do it. Then just use the odyssey plastic?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Good Question. I see you recently joined the site, awesome...What I don't know is how long you've had your buggy. It's like a sickness,, And the sickness hits everyone differently. We are way past the cut up the OEM frame question, have you seen the rear build?

I've said this over and over again. I just like to build things :) I have built full frames, but when I bought my buggies, I just started changing things. I like to look at things and make it better, at least for me. Just remember, chocolate, strawberry and vanilla..

I'm delayed a little as I'm trying to finish up an under the hood redo for a customers 1966 Hemi Coronet. I've just laid the etching primmer, next, the high build then paint. Then, everything else.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 420
Location: Pennsylvania
Got more work done today. It is way to cold outside to do anything but work in the shop. Talk about crazy, it was like 65 degrees yesterday, today its 30 degrees. Anyway, I just about have the upper shock mount finished. I air'd the shocks and put the buggy on its wheels. I'm going to attempt to get more done this week, the holiday will probably impinge upon my plan a little.
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