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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
adnoh wrote:
Wow!
DGJ
CO, maybe post up needle chart.
This may have something to to with the poor transition.
Shop install on did it come with it.

Starting to make even more since.
For some reason I thought we covered the needle in past post. If not, our bad.sorry.

Every Engine different so that may be what it needs. I will look at my chart when get home. The DJ just don't seam right.
Interesting. Slow is a 55? I'll go back and read


We are not getting all the information here adnoh.
I did post up a chart at the very top of this page (link). http://www.keihin-na.com/aftermarket/pwk/
Apparently it is the same issue I had with the Mikuni flat slides that I have. There is more than one carb of the same size. You have to look at the suffix number at the end. It makes all the difference and he has not told us EXACTLY which carb he has.
I wana see a photo of the serial number stamp of that carb to be sure.


Attachment:
Carb installed.jpg
Carb installed.jpg [ 76.41 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]


I did post previously but it was a while back - the carb is a PWK 39mm (D shaped slide), 55 Pilot jet, 162 Main Jet and DGJ Needle. Chart says 60 Pilot, 160 Main and DGH needle but it is set up as purchased new by previous owner. C.A. is a 6.0 also. I did replace the 55 pilot with a new 55 when i had it rebuilt. I can check to see if there any identifying marks other than the PWK on the carb but since it will take some disassembly, will have to post later.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
The mikuni carbs are stamped on the body of carb which size they are. Not sure about the kehlin.
Your pilot jet is fine as far as I am concerned because your bottom end is strong, so leave it.
This all may be of no concern if it runs like a raped ape when you pull the air box lid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
The mikuni carbs are stamped on the body of carb which size they are. Not sure about the kehlin.
Your pilot jet is fine as far as I am concerned because your bottom end is strong, so leave it.
This all may be of no concern if it runs like a raped ape when you pull the air box lid.


I have looked the carb over pretty well and don't recall anything other than the PWK but for the sake of knowledge, will check.
One additional item to note - I had cleaned the air filters (two K&N's, one inside treated with oil and one outside w/o oil but have a precharger over it) just prior to the last piston explosion and really didn't feel like there was much opportunity to get that dirty. After I read post from you about removing the lid and Hoser about resetting the needle back to center first to see how it runs, i thought to take a closer look at the air filters and i could barely see through the outer filter!

To quote my man Fred Sanford: "Big Dummy!"

I am assuming this is what you were both going for by telling me to try w/o the lid. Anyway, both filters and precharger are super clean now and will be testing later today/tomorrow and if no improvement, will try w/o lid - will post update afterwards.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Try it without the pre-filters as well please.
Basically looking at running it with no lid and just a single filter.
This thing may be choking for air a full throttle or high load.
Once that is determined will decide what has to be done.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I Miss typed on my phone. The (J) seams odd (lean) to me. ( CO, The needle chart I was referring to is this one.)
Most pilots with the 39 mm carb uses a (G) or (H) for dia. Not saying yours does just an observation. Now for the dirty filter that is a jetting no no. You will chase your tale around and around or eat another piston when you do clean it.

This chart gives an idea of what needle does what in what range compared to what one might have or want to do in way of change for tune.

If you Engine hits hard now with that (J) wait until you put good air to it. Again not saying change it just keep it in mind. why you ask?? Well as most of us know and CO knows quite well is the Engine will have a tendency to detonate on throttle closure when running hot on hard pulls if your not fat enough on slow jet and needle dia of choice. Hench the question on slow jet. Week mixture strength at high rpm and heat load after TDC (Top Dead Center) it will or could knock. Think of it as a quick lean out and it makes since. This is another reason most of us run our petcock on reserve and pull out choke right after hard pull or sustained WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Cheap insurance since we are NOT EFI based.

I would go back and read what CO post a link to at Duncan and read some more of it my be applicable.
You intake velocity is a high velocity type set up.

For a comparison ONLY. The needle choice for a over bored stock pipe pilot is the standard EEG in clip one or two or DGG or DGH clip two through four. Please remember this only what I have done. I use a lower velocity (denser) intake than most which requires a richer all around setting base off of velocity



Choose wisely grass hopper !


Attachments:
Keihin needle chart.jpg
Keihin needle chart.jpg [ 33.56 KiB | Viewed 370 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
see if this helps. I know some times I talk in circles.
Sorry


Attachments:
pwk 39 needle tuning.pdf [348.02 KiB]
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
adnoh wrote:
I Miss typed on my phone. The (J) seams odd (lean) to me. ( CO, The needle chart I was referring to is this one.)
Most pilots with the 39 mm carb uses a (G) or (H) for dia. Not saying yours does just an observation. Now for the dirty filter that is a jetting no no. You will chase your tale around and around or eat another piston when you do clean it.

This chart gives an idea of what needle does what in what range compared to what one might have or want to do in way of change for tune.

If you Engine hits hard now with that (J) wait until you put good air to it. Again not saying change it just keep it in mind. why you ask?? Well as most of us know and CO knows quite well is the Engine will have a tendency to detonate on throttle closure when running hot on hard pulls if your not fat enough on slow jet and needle dia of choice. Hench the question on slow jet. Week mixture strength at high rpm and heat load after TDC (Top Dead Center) (Top Dead Center) it will or could knock. Think of it as a quick lean out and it makes since. This is another reason most of us run our petcock on reserve and pull out choke right after hard pull or sustained WOT (Wide Open Throttle) (Wide Open Throttle). Cheap insurance since we are NOT EFI based.

I would go back and read what CO post a link to at Duncan and read some more of it my be applicable.
You intake velocity is a high velocity type set up.

For a comparison ONLY. The needle choice for a over bored stock pipe pilot is the standard EEG in clip one or two or DGG or DGH clip two through four. Please remember this only what I have done. I use a lower velocity (denser) intake than most which requires a richer all around setting base off of velocity



Choose wisely grass hopper !


Lot of good info here - "pull out the choke right after a hard pull or sustained WOT (Wide Open Throttle)" - to the best of my recollection, it seems this is when my pistons melted. Will do some more research on the needle situation and see what my next step will need to be

canadian oddy wrote:
Try it without the pre-filters as well please.
Basically looking at running it with no lid and just a single filter.
This thing may be choking for air a full throttle or high load.
Once that is determined will decide what has to be done.


Did some WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs after cleaning air filters, first with lid and secondary filter and then with the secondary removed. Seemed to be good with the secondary filter on and even better with it off. Here is the plug pic (sorry but a bit blurry):

Attachment:
Plug color looks pretty good.jpg
Plug color looks pretty good.jpg [ 23.86 KiB | Viewed 356 times ]


The really good news here is that I have been through 10 gallons of fuel (5 of 110 race and 5 of 100LL) with some heavy riding and a lot of WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs and no melted piston! Not sure if the extra octane is masking a problem or if the lack of octane was the problem but either way works for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Quote: Did some WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs after cleaning air filters, first with lid and secondary filter and then with the secondary removed. Seemed to be good with the secondary filter on and even better with it off. Here is the plug pic (sorry but a bit blurry):

1) Your plug looks like mine. Your good. Avgas don't color plugs like pump gas.
Sometimes the plug will be yellow. This is called high speed glazing. Caused by some very high speed continuous driving. We don't ride like that anymore after I broke my back.
2) Your not very clear here. What are you saying ?? With lid off and no secondary filter does it pull strong to the end when you nail it or do you have to feather the throttle and roll into full throttle ?? Did it cure your throttle response issue ??
3) Where is your needle set right now ?? I still like stock settings.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
Quote: Did some WOT (Wide Open Throttle) (Wide Open Throttle) runs after cleaning air filters, first with lid and secondary filter and then with the secondary removed. Seemed to be good with the secondary filter on and even better with it off. Here is the plug pic (sorry but a bit blurry):

1) Your plug looks like mine. Your good. Avgas don't color plugs like pump gas.
Sometimes the plug will be yellow. This is called high speed glazing. Caused by some very high speed continuous driving. We don't ride like that anymore after I broke my back.
2) Your not very clear here. What are you saying ?? With lid off and no secondary filter does it pull strong to the end when you nail it or do you have to feather the throttle and roll into full throttle ?? Did it cure your throttle response issue ??
3) Where is your needle set right now ?? I still like stock settings.


1) Cool, cool. Glad to hear this.
2) Yes, pulls strong all the way through. Was good with both filters (clean) but better with only one.
3) Needle is back in center (stock) positions


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Ok that sounds good to me.
Basically this is telling me that your girl machine is sensitive to air. She is starving a bit for air flow.
Now that you know what the issue is you can decide what if anything you are going to do about it.
Basically if it starts to run shitty you now know the filters are dirty.
What a horror novel.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I was just looking at pics of those pistons and wish I owned a Pilot. I would weld those holes up, buff up the skirts with a flapper wheel, clean up the ring grooves with a nail file and buy new rings. Good to go. Those pistons still look good to me. (Yes I am a hack n whacker).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
Think i can officially close this thread down with the final diagnosis being that she (my girl machine :-) ) didn't like 93 octane. On the third tank of gas (AV fuel) and still running reliably.

Still a little flat in the middle of the throttle. Ordered factory recommended needle and pilot jet per specs above. Gonna run her for a bit as is and swap out in fall.

Huge thanks to all for the input and suggestions all along the way.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
Glad to hear your not melting pistons anymore but food for thought, when reading plugs, the color will give you some idea of how it is but to do a proper plug reading you need to look down inside with a 10X magnifier, I am by no means an expert but you can do a search and find some threads on the subject.
the other thing to be aware of, you can melt a piston on just about any part of the throttle, well it may be difficult at 1/4 but from 1/2 on if the mixture is way off it can still hole a piston.


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