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 Post subject: Endo into a triple flip
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
SO good news first, the pilot is running like mad right now (AV Gas :)). Went to a local MX/SxS area this past weekend and went a bit crazy. Never had the buggy running this good so I was hitting anything that even closely resembled a jump. Got some great air on a few -

Attachment:
IMG_4996.PNG
IMG_4996.PNG [ 586 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]


Even hit the quarter mile track and tried to go up against a few banshees (and lost). Then I was chasing a buddy on a dirt bike and came off an incline a bit too fast for the angle and next thing I knew, I was coming down on the nose. I could hear the gasps of all that witnessed the spectacle but my seat belt and wrist restraints did their jobs and after going end over end a few times, I landed on the roof, unbuckled and got out completely unscathed. Flipped the buggy back on its wheels and after taking a little inventory and a slow drive around, I could see the rear tire was not holding air and wobbling when it spun and the front wheels were a bit out of alignment. Figured it would be a good time to trailer up and take my show home.

Did an initial inspection today and here is the list so far of things I noticed:
1. Right rear tire wobbling when it spins - rim bent - replaced with a spare and seems axle is good, spinning straight now
2. Front and rear bumpers both mashed up pretty good (no biggie - they did their job too)
Attachment:
Front Bumper.JPG
Front Bumper.JPG [ 60.47 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]

Attachment:
Rear Bumper.JPG
Rear Bumper.JPG [ 56.5 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]

3. Upper roll cage appears fine - no damage other than some scratches/scrapes/scuffs
4. Front end is out of whack - with the steering turned a little to the left, the left tire looks straight and the right one is turned in.
Attachment:
L Wheel.JPG
L Wheel.JPG [ 53.47 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]

Attachment:
R wheel.JPG
R wheel.JPG [ 48.24 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]

The rear section of my right upper a arm is bent inwards towards the shock and binding on the spring. And based on how much farther the top of the R wheel is out compared to the L, it looks like i may have bent the knuckle as well. Again.

I guess what I need to know now is does anyone have any insight as to how to get a baseline on straightening a front end when you're not sure if either side is still within tolerance?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
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Location: near NJ rider
Sooo...wheres the video? :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
Unfortunately, that little extravaganza didn't make the highlight reel. Not really something I planned for. Wish I had though, heard it looked awesome!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
Glad u r OK. I never seem to have the camera on at the right moment either. All in all I think it held up quite well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
That shyte'll buff right out.
Good to hear you are finally having some fun.
Looks like you had fun too.
Pull the busted crap off and fix it with a torch. A little bit of heat on the bent area and a cheater pipe on the other end to pull it straight. Good enough.
Put it back together and do a wheel alignment with a tape measure and some string. Good to go.
On a side not here, everyone should have a complete set of wheels for these things. They get bent up often. Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
That shyte'll buff right out.
Good to hear you are finally having some fun.
Looks like you had fun too.
Pull the busted crap off and fix it with a torch. A little bit of heat on the bent area and a cheater pipe on the other end to pull it straight. Good enough.
Put it back together and do a wheel alignment with a tape measure and some string. Good to go.
On a side not here, everyone should have a complete set of wheels for these things. They get bent up often. Just my opinion.



Agreed on pulling the busted crap off and re bending, the question is how far? If you don't know the angle the correct bend should be, how do you know when to stop? I'm just not sure if only one side is bent or both. Anywho, it was definitely a blast to get a good strong 4-5 hour run out of it with no performance issues. Come to think of it, the lack of performance issues is what led to my current situation!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
dipnadactyl wrote:
Agreed on pulling the busted crap off and re bending, the question is how far? If you don't know the angle the correct bend should be, how do you know when to stop? I'm just not sure if only one side is bent or both. Anywho, it was definitely a blast to get a good strong 4-5 hour run out of it with no performance issues. Come to think of it, the lack of performance issues is what led to my current situation!


It's reasonable to believe that the A arm pipe would be straight when it is all welded together originally. However as you can see on the top A arm it does have a pre-bend in it and then welded together. But any pre-bend would be obvious. Therefore just use a straight edge to see if your pipe is straight after you re-bend it back into place.
Search the site for pics of Pilot suspension and you will have a good idea of what it should look like.
Moral of the story for everyone on this site: Have a prefabbed jig of your suspension components.
Think I may have to work on that this winter.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Now that you have the machine running good, it appears you have gone crazy.
I would like to suggest caution.
I currently have half a shop full of bent rims, bent parts, busted plastic and a bent frame sitting here.
I also have a broken L1 vertebrae in my spine that is touching my spinal cord from an oddy crash.

Every man for himself
Advance to the rear


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
Now that you have the machine running good, it appears you have gone crazy.
I would like to suggest caution.
I currently have half a shop full of bent rims, bent parts, busted plastic and a bent frame sitting here.
I also have a broken L1 vertebrae in my spine that is touching my spinal cord from an oddy crash.

Every man for himself
Advance to the rear


Guilty as charged. The thought to tone it down a bit has crossed my mind. If for no other reason than cost and availability of replacement parts. It will certainly keep your shade tree fix-it skills honed.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
dipnadactyl wrote:
Unfortunately, that little extravaganza didn't make the highlight reel. Not really something I planned for. Wish I had though, heard it looked awesome!


LOL. :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
The day I rolled my Drakart was the first time I had it running like a rapped ape and my outcome was about the same as u.
Now u know how far u can take it and know what to not do.
You will tone it down for a few rides but u will forget about it after a bit and be balls out before long.
"If it doesn't break ur not driving hard enough"


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
FloridaEdd wrote:
The day I rolled my Drakart was the first time I had it running like a rapped ape and my outcome was about the same as u.
Now u know how far u can take it and know what to not do.
You will tone it down for a few rides but u will forget about it after a bit and be balls out before long.
"If it doesn't break ur not driving hard enough"


"If it doesn't break ur not driving hard enough" - While this sounds good in theory, it's a problem when everything you break is obsolete. Still fun though and yes, you're probably right - I'll forget this and do it all over again at some point.
:-)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
After a closer inspection, i have confirmed the right knuckle is bent in again. This shouldn't be too much of a problem as I know the correct distance between the two mounts by measuring the other one. I was also looking closely at the two lower a arms and the one on the right is farther back than the one on the left by about a 1/4". After more poking around and measuring different areas from side to side, I found what may be a more serious issue:

View from the front
Attachment:
Front Cross member.JPG
Front Cross member.JPG [ 59.84 KiB | Viewed 651 times ]


Notice the slight kink on the left side (in pic, right if sitting in buggy) of the front cross member? Must've landed on the front right wheel and mashed it in a bit. I've seen stories posted here where others have bent frames so i have to ask: Is this something that can be corrected? Will it require completely stripping the frame down? Would appreciate any ideas on how to get this back to a reasonably acceptable level of straightness.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
It depends on you're patience. You need something to secure the vehicle to.
Let me tell u how I would do it and maybe some of it will help.
I'd put my buggy on the trailer. I'd lay out some 4x4 aluminium tubing running cross wise from side to side on the trailer. I would place a cinder block on the aluminum under 4 points of the chassis with a 6x6X2 on the bottom and top of the cinder block to keep it from breaking and from scratching ur frame. I'd look and see how much ur frame is off at this point. I would put another 6x6x2 under the three good sides and chain/strap those corners down. Strap them down good.I'd pull the wood off the block where ur damage is so it has room to move. I would then lay cinder blocks on my trailer railings and run a steel beam across the front of ur pilot using the cinder blocks to get it up enough that u can fit a bottle jack between the beam and ur frame. Then strap the beam to the trailer railings and use the force of the jack between ur beam and frame to bend it. Will want a block of wood between the jack and frame so u don't damage it.
This is sort of how I fixed my upper cage after my incident. I may not have explained well so ask anything u need to.
Now this is what I would do. Some may have better suggestions.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
dipnadactyl wrote:
FloridaEdd wrote:
The day I rolled my Drakart was the first time I had it running like a rapped ape and my outcome was about the same as u.
Now u know how far u can take it and know what to not do.
You will tone it down for a few rides but u will forget about it after a bit and be balls out before long.
"If it doesn't break ur not driving hard enough"


"If it doesn't break ur not driving hard enough" - While this sounds good in theory, it's a problem when everything you break is obsolete. Still fun though and yes, you're probably right - I'll forget this and do it all over again at some point.
:-)



Mine is worse then obsolete. I'd most likely have to have something custom built. Or worse deal with Allen at Drakart


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
After digging around here, everything i have seen makes it sound like trying to get the frame adjusted could just be an exercise in futility. I either run the risk of bending/crushing one of the tubes or it returning to its current bent state. At this point, it looks like i will need an upper and lower a arm for the right side and the knuckle will need to have the two pivot points bent back out about 1/4 inch. Will then try to adjust the alignment to compensate. Gonna break it down this week. Anyone have a couple a arms they'd like to rehome? Shoot me a price if so and TIA.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
dipnadactyl wrote:
After digging around here, everything i have seen makes it sound like trying to get the frame adjusted could just be an exercise in futility. I either run the risk of bending/crushing one of the tubes or it returning to its current bent state. At this point, it looks like i will need an upper and lower a arm for the right side and the knuckle will need to have the two pivot points bent back out about 1/4 inch. Will then try to adjust the alignment to compensate. Gonna break it down this week. Anyone have a couple a arms they'd like to rehome? Shoot me a price if so and TIA.


Any damage to your main frame will be difficult to fix.
I have done it to my brothers machine when he crashed it hard, but it had to cut the frame.
I have also done it to my machine after that huge crash that broke my back. I took the stripped frame to work and we chained it to the welding table. Then we got some long pipes and we leaned hard on them. I did get the frame within 1/4" of straight approx. but I also bent a few other tubes slightly with the pipe we used to twist that chassis.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14905&hilit=bent+frame


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
dipnadactyl wrote:
After digging around here, everything i have seen makes it sound like trying to get the frame adjusted could just be an exercise in futility. I either run the risk of bending/crushing one of the tubes or it returning to its current bent state. At this point, it looks like i will need an upper and lower a arm for the right side and the knuckle will need to have the two pivot points bent back out about 1/4 inch. Will then try to adjust the alignment to compensate. Gonna break it down this week. Anyone have a couple a arms they'd like to rehome? Shoot me a price if so and TIA.


Any damage to your main frame will be difficult to fix.
I have done it to my brothers machine when he crashed it hard, but it had to cut the frame.
I have also done it to my machine after that huge crash that broke my back. I took the stripped frame to work and we chained it to the welding table. Then we got some long pipes and we leaned hard on them. I did get the frame within 1/4" of straight approx. but I also bent a few other tubes slightly with the pipe we used to twist that chassis.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14905&hilit=bent+frame


Currently, i'm within 1/4-1/2" of straight. thinking i can overcome with alignment adjustments. As long as the tires roll straight i should be good to get back out there. At this point, hope is my strategy (which I've always been told is not good).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
Hope is all I got.
Sounds like u should be good, you should be able to adjust most of that out in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Location: Wilmington NC
Picked up the buggy yesterday from getting frame and a arms straightened - looks darn near perfect. Knuckle was bent inwards but had a spare. Spare was also bent from a previous incident but was able to get it back to within spec. Did a complete disassemble to front right corner to replace knuckle, inspect a arms bearings/bushings and replace ball joint dust covers when I saw this -

Attachment:
Rt Lwr A-arm.jpg
Rt Lwr A-arm.jpg [ 35.34 KiB | Viewed 518 times ]


Anyone ever successfully correct something like this? Any downside to running it as is? I can get one from that E website but it would seem they are now made of gold.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Location: Carson City NV
Replace it.....

1.) Joint has been stressed. Can cause total failure when you least expect it.
2.) Joint now has limited motion.

Rand


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Location: Wilmington NC
Randman wrote:
Replace it.....

1.) Joint has been stressed. Can cause total failure when you least expect it.
2.) Joint now has limited motion.

Rand


10-4. Already searching. Thanks for the feedback.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
dipnadactyl wrote:
Picked up the buggy yesterday from getting frame and a arms straightened - looks darn near perfect. Knuckle was bent inwards but had a spare. Spare was also bent from a previous incident but was able to get it back to within spec. Did a complete disassemble to front right corner to replace knuckle, inspect a arms bearings/bushings and replace ball joint dust covers when I saw this -

Attachment:
Rt Lwr A-arm.jpg


Anyone ever successfully correct something like this? Any downside to running it as is? I can get one from that E website but it would seem they are now made of gold.


Yes actually I have.
Here is a post where there is a couple of pics of it but I don't remember the repair thread I posted: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16848&hilit=ball+joint+repair&start=0

By the way that repaired ball joint is still on my brothers machine.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
canadian oddy wrote:
dipnadactyl wrote:
Picked up the buggy yesterday from getting frame and a arms straightened - looks darn near perfect. Knuckle was bent inwards but had a spare. Spare was also bent from a previous incident but was able to get it back to within spec. Did a complete disassemble to front right corner to replace knuckle, inspect a arms bearings/bushings and replace ball joint dust covers when I saw this -

Attachment:
Rt Lwr A-arm.jpg


Anyone ever successfully correct something like this? Any downside to running it as is? I can get one from that E website but it would seem they are now made of gold.


Yes actually I have.
Here is a post where there is a couple of pics of it but I don't remember the repair thread I posted: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16848&hilit=ball+joint+repair&start=0

By the way that repaired ball joint is still on my brothers machine.


I was able to source one for a fair price (read less than ebay but still not cheap) and it should be in in a few days but would definitely like to know more about repairing the bent one. Will do a little searching around to see if i can locate the thread and please let me know if you come across it. I have already scavenged, cleaned and bagged the bushings and was prepared to toss the arm. It would be the second one i've thrown away and I really hate throwing stuff away!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I have searched high and low for that thread and can't find it.
Its possible that I did not do a separate thread on it.
With the pictures there you can see what I did. The only thing not shown is how I straightened the bent ball joint itself. Basically I just put it in the vise (ball end) and put the nut on the other end. Found a small cheater pipe to fit over the threaded end with the nut on it. Then I got the torch and heated it up and bent it back.
Also if your plastic sleeve that the ball rolls in is worn out and shot you can make a new bed with babbit. There is a thread where I commented on how to do that, but I have not had to do this yet. Easy fix though.


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