Board index

My Home Page

PilotOdyssey.com By hoser...


PilotOdyssey.com Chat Room

PilotOdyssey.com Photo Album

* Login   * Register * FAQ
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/smiley_cool.png PilotOdyssey.com Chat    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/find.png PilotOdyssey.com Google Search    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_tongue.png FL400 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png FL350 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_evilgrin.png FL250 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_unhappy.png Admin Email   
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:14 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Well I decided to have some fun tonight and do something that I have been trying to do for some time now. I was always thinking about modifying the axel so that you could run a longer shock and don't get u-joint bind. I did make reference to this in other threads but always said that I did not want to comment because I have not done the mod yet. Well tonight I did, on one side only and only as a proof of concept. This has apparently been done by one of the Australians already (bugeye59) but it has never been documented and no comment was made on how long a shock he was using. Randman and I were both thinking of this for a while and you can see the comments in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17574&start=0
Anyways tonight I will try to document this for you. My methods are skill billy but good enough as far as I am concerned. It gives a good indication of what you can run.
Basically what I did was take two pieces of aluminum and mount them in place of the shock. On one piece I marked off several 1/4" increments. The black line you see in the pictures is the stock 15 1/4" oddy shock length. Then a photo was taken of the u-joint clearance. This process was repeated at each stage. At a certain point I removed the axel and ground clearance on the axel with a die grinder. You will note that I did not trim anything off of the cap area as there is not much meat there. Only the main part was ground down. The caps were only cleaned of casting marks, that's it.
Yes I can hear the argument already -- "you ground off some so now the shaft balance will be off".
In my opinion NO. An oddy gearbox has a 10/1 reduction. That means at 8000 rpm the shaft will be spinning 800 rpm. It is also a very short solid shaft. That means it will not flex like a regular auto shaft. So balance will not be an issue as we are taking off very little on a solid short shaft.
See pics and comments. (give me a few minutes to post all the pics before you comment)


Attachments:
20180108_202426.jpg
20180108_202426.jpg [ 60.14 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
20180108_202531.jpg
20180108_202531.jpg [ 66.66 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
File comment: Stock shock length (black line)
20180108_202538.jpg
20180108_202538.jpg [ 31.6 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
File comment: Stock clearance
20180108_202644.jpg
20180108_202644.jpg [ 58.17 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
File comment: Moved one mark to 15 1/2"
20180108_202828.jpg
20180108_202828.jpg [ 33.86 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
File comment: You can see that it is touching. I did not feel any resistance at this point but its way to close for me. It is touching.
20180108_202838.jpg
20180108_202838.jpg [ 55.1 KiB | Viewed 2115 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
At this point the axel was removed and the mod was done.


Attachments:
File comment: Here you can see the rub mark
20180108_203837.jpg
20180108_203837.jpg [ 49.47 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
File comment: In the next two pics you can see the casting flaws on the caps
20180108_204712.jpg
20180108_204712.jpg [ 46.86 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
File comment: casting flaws
20180108_204853.jpg
20180108_204853.jpg [ 46.87 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
File comment: Out comes the die grinder
20180108_204123.jpg
20180108_204123.jpg [ 41.22 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
File comment: Flaws taken off cap area as well
20180108_210933.jpg
20180108_210933.jpg [ 44.53 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Final.


Attachments:
File comment: Here we are at the second mark or 15 3/4"
20180108_210737.jpg
20180108_210737.jpg [ 31.84 KiB | Viewed 2113 times ]
File comment: Clearance
20180108_210749.jpg
20180108_210749.jpg [ 50.17 KiB | Viewed 2113 times ]
File comment: Stock oddy shock 15 1/4"
20180108_211819.jpg
20180108_211819.jpg [ 38.99 KiB | Viewed 2113 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Why is this important you ask ??
Well because no one makes 15 1/4" shocks unless you buy those very expensive works shocks or similar.
So if you relieve the axels you can easily run 15 1/2" shocks and Honda runs those on all kinds of their machines. I Believe Randman run some shocks off of a Suzuki LTF500F 4x4 but he had to adjust his rear wheels so that they were cambered way out to prevent u-joint bind. The above is the solution.
On a final note here you will find many shocks you can run but Honda has a 10mm bolt going through those. The oddy shock bolts are 14mm. Not sure if you can cross replace the eyes for a larger bolt. More research is required for this. Also the bottom eye must have a ringball center. It has to pivot. This is an important consideration when choosing a shock.
Maybe Randman can comment on what his set up was all about.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Here is the quote from Randman: "I have tried a pair of shocks from a Suzuki LTF500F 4x4. The draw back is you have to put a bit of positive camber and so that the U joints don't bind. The weight of both the Ody and the Suzuki are pretty close (599 v/s 602). The length of the Showa shock is 15.25 eye to eye and the Suzuki shock is 15.5". I even tried to see if I could shorten them 1/4" which would eliminate the camber issue but no success."

Here is the thread it was taken from: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11100&hilit=fl350+works+shocks+works+shocks

Edit: The shocks he used were from a Honda TRX450ES not the Suzuki.

The above mod should solve this issue.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Here is some various shock length info but you must verify bolt size as well as length.
The info is correct as I found it but I run none of these. I still run the stock ones.

Honda models with the same length rear shock as the oddy:
TRX250R (Front) 1986-89 15.25"
Honda models with slightly longer rear shocks as the oddy:
TRX400ex 1999-on 15.50"
TRX450R (Front) 2004-on 15.50"
TRX450R LT 2004-on 15.50"
TRX500 Rubicon (Front) 2001-on 15.50"
TRX500 Foreman ES/S (Front) 2005-on 15.50"
TRX650 Rincon (Front) 2003-on 15.38"
Honda models with slightly shorter rear shocks as the oddy:
TRX250ex 2001 15.13"
ATC350X 1986 15.13"
TRX420 Rancher, 4X4 (Front) 2007- on 15.13"

There are other manufacturers with shocks of similar but these are just the Honda models that are close.
NOTE: You MUST verify bolt hole sizes before you order. The oddy has a 14mm bolt and the TRX400ex has a 10mm bolt.

Kawasaki KFX400 2003-up (R) 15.50”
Kymco 300 mongoose 2007-up (F) 15.25”
Suzuki LTZ400 2002-up (R) 15.50”
Yamaha Raptor 250 2008-up (R) 15.38”
Yamaha YFM350 Wolverine 1995-05 (F) 15.50”
Yamaha YFM400FWM Big Bear 2000-up (F) 15.50”
Yamaha YFM660R & YFM700R Raptor 2001-05 & 06-on (F&R) 15.50”
Yamaha Rhino 2004-up (R) 15.50”


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:33 pm
Posts: 945
Location: Rhode Island
Great work and I can see this being a great modification.

I believe that Randman now uses the fox 2.0 shocks with the works shocks install kit. The bushings that come with the works kit reduce the bolt size for lower shock mounting point on the trailing arm. I believe he used a copper sleeve to reduced the upper mounting point. Maybe the trick here is to use newer shocks as you suggested and get their OEM bolt size to work on the odyssey, like Randman has done.

I have a spare set of the works trailing arm bushings and can have them reproduced at the local machine shop. If anyone is interested I can find out the cost to do so.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that the Ody's rear suspension travels in an arc while it is being compressed. This necessitates the use of Heim joints both top and bottom. Honda missed this with the FL350's top shock mount. I have seen several factory Showa shocks where the top bushing is all but destroyed because of the twisting motion that occurs when the shock is compressed. The shocks from the Suzuki that I tested have rubber bushings on both top and bottom. Even with the mod to the yoke as Can Odd has performed to allow for a longer travel shock, without a Heim joint on both top and bottom, the shock bushings themselves will only last for a short time. Because of the arcing motion of the rear suspension, the bushings are bound to fail quickly because they are being flexed in a direction they were not designed for.

In short, this is why I went with the Fox Air 2.0 shocks. They have Heim joints both top and bottom to allow for proper shock lateral shock swing and are short enough to be a bolt on without yoke modification.

Rand


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Nice work CO.
Since you can run a different shock at that eye to eye extended run your suspension the other way and see what compressed eye to eye is for a shaft length then compare shocks. Before we get into rates and ratios. Also at 800 rpm and 24 inch tire 800/14= 57.14 mph. I'll spare you the headche.
Also when doing this chassis levle get a vertical wheel travel number. I like numbers. Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Nice work CO.
Since you can run a different shock at that eye to eye extended run your suspension the other way and see what compressed eye to eye is for a shaft length then compare shocks. Before we get into rates and ratios. Also at 800 rpm and 24 inch tire 800/14= 57.14 mph. I'll spare you the headche.
Also when doing this chassis levle get a vertical wheel travel number. I like numbers. Thanks


I can't see any binding issue at compression. You can see the severe angle of the drive shaft at full droop, so any binding would happen there. At compression the axel will be level or a very slight up angle at best. I may be wrong on that though.
I just used 8000 rpm as an example. I know for sure the oddy will do 63 mph, so it probably revs to 8500 plus. I say plus because one time we were going down hill on the main road and I could "feel" the danger. Butt cheeks were in full pucker and I let off the throttle. The oddy was twitchy and you could really "feel" the speed. I bet big money it was faster than 63 mph.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I may not have been very clear about shaft length. If the you can now run longer shock you should be able to use a shock with a longer shaft. On the other hand if a replacement shock had a shorter shaft you gain nothing other than new shock. There are ratios involved is why I ask for wheel travel and available shaft travel. So if you have one to one and use a shock set up for let's say two to one then the two to one shaft maybe shorter not allowing full available suspension travel. Among other things.
Any way 800/12.93= 61.87 for a 26. Measure your of of tire for me please.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
I may not have been very clear about shaft length. If the you can now run longer shock you should be able to use a shock with a longer shaft. On the other hand if a replacement shock had a shorter shaft you gain nothing other than new shock. There are ratios involved is why I ask for wheel travel and available shaft travel. So if you have one to one and use a shock set up for let's say two to one then the two to one shaft maybe shorter not allowing full available suspension travel. Among other things.
Any way 800/12.93= 61.87 for a 26. Measure your of of tire for me please.


Just got home from the big city.
Will get back to you on some of this.
Probably not going to do anything in the shop tonight.
Just to be clear -- this was just a proof of concept that I have been thinking about for a long time. I DO NOT have any shocks that I am going to run. I will be running the STOCK shocks. I was just trying to see if it was possible to run a longer shock and if so how much longer. Basically you can run a shock that is 15.5" (common size) long. You could run a 15.75" shock as well but anything more and you would have to get aggressive with the die grinder and by then you would have a very severe angle on the u-joint. This would kill it's life expectance. U-joint life is based on 3000 hrs at a certain rpm and angle I believe.
I got the information from here: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks ... -101.shtml
Also important here is the fact that the right side drive shaft will hit the gas tank if you get to much travel. I will not be able to measure that as I do not have a stock fuel tank for this machine.

So I think I now understand what you are asking but I don't know how to answer questions because I don't have an actual replacement shock with longer travel.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
If I had the tools and the know how, I would attempt to fabricate a bracket that bolts into the top shock mount relocating the top shock mount higher on the frame thus allowing for the use of longer shocks. This is for those of us who don't believe in fenders!

Just a thought......

Rand


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
If I had the tools and the know how, I would attempt to fabricate a bracket that bolts into the top shock mount relocating the top shock mount higher on the frame thus allowing for the use of longer shocks. This is for those of us who don't believe in fenders!

Just a thought......

Rand


Those are the other legitimate concerns.
I wanted to use the stock mounts.
I wanted to be able to use drop in replacement shocks without rebuilding and redesigning the whole machine.
Fenders are an issue that I never even considered. Good one Rand.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
If I had the tools and the know how, I would attempt to fabricate a bracket that bolts into the top shock mount relocating the top shock mount higher on the frame thus allowing for the use of longer shocks. This is for those of us who don't believe in fenders!

Just a thought......

Rand


Mobtech_Photo already did that but not sure if I like it. He hasn't been on since Sept 2017.
It does look like he holed the frame so that's why I don't like it. But he did do a good job.

Edit: This is what adnoh is referring to I think. With stroke like that I bet the axel may hit the fuel tank.


Attachments:
Untitled.png
Untitled.png [ 619.91 KiB | Viewed 1999 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
I remember seeing that picture and I too didn't think compromising the frame was a good idea. I was thinking more along the lines of a 2 piece bracket that would extend above the frame rail which he put the hole through. This would possibly require spacing the shock out slightly to clear the bolt in the frame.

Another idea would be a triangular or rectangular shaped 1/4" thick plate that could have one point mounted in the shock hole and the other point utilizing the frame mounts for the upper roll cage as seen in the picture above.

It may or may not work..... again just thinking outside of the box.

Rand


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
I remember seeing that picture and I too didn't think compromising the frame was a good idea. I was thinking more along the lines of a 2 piece bracket that would extend above the frame rail which he put the hole through. This would possibly require spacing the shock out slightly to clear the bolt in the frame.

Another idea would be a triangular or rectangular shaped 1/4" thick plate that could have one point mounted in the shock hole and the other point utilizing the frame mounts for the upper roll cage as seen in the picture above.

It may or may not work..... again just thinking outside of the box.

Rand


I think your way may work if you did exactly as you say but lean the shock foreword instead of vertical.
But I think we are getting away from what I (and you) were thinking when the thought of clearancing the u-joints was all about.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
I only brought it up because 15.25" shocks with a 4" travel and rated strong enough for our 600 pound toys are a bitch to find! The only two that I know will work are the Fox Air 2.0's and the Works shocks.

A longer shock with slightly more travel might just be the ticket!

Rand


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
I only brought it up because 15.25" shocks with a 4" travel and rated strong enough for our 600 pound toys are a bitch to find! The only two that I know will work are the Fox Air 2.0's and the Works shocks.

A longer shock with slightly more travel might just be the ticket!

Rand


Clearance the u-joints, run shocks from a Honda TRX450ES, make a bolt & sleeve for the 10mm eyes I think that shock got, use the oddy shock end with the ball joint pivot -- -- -- -- good to go.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
Knowing our luck, the Ody ends are a different diameter and thread that the TRX450es.

Hmmmmmm..... I wonder if you can press a heim joint into those 450 shocks. The set I played with did have removable rubber but the quality of the welded loop was questionable.

Rand


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Randman wrote:
Knowing our luck, the Ody ends are a different diameter and thread that the TRX450es.

Hmmmmmm..... I wonder if you can press a heim joint into those 450 shocks. The set I played with did have removable rubber but the quality of the welded loop was questionable.

Rand


The threaded end of the shock would be no problem. Just make a new one out of an aluminum block. It's not that hard. Then drill a hole for a new heim joint and press it in or cut two circlip grooves. The issue I found was that I can't find 14mm heim"s, I looked. They got every other size LOL.
The real issue is the fixed end of the shock. What can you do there ?? Very limited. You could press out the old end and then make a new bushing the correct size. Then pour rubber (vitaflex) in between. Not sure if I want to trust my life on that though.
At the end of the day the relieved axel and a replacement shock is the answer.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:25 pm
Posts: 96
Location: Oberlin, Ohio
good write up, I was looking for a cheaper option than works. I love the fox shocks, but money is tight and OEM Honda shocks seem cheap enough to try.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I would like to bring this thread back to life for a brief moment.
I was trolling the net for info on shock lengths, location on machine and manufacturer.
During my trolling there were several references with links to Works which would show the shock sizes. Each one of these links was broken and said no longer available. Then I remembered I had a pdf file on my computer. It was that Works pdf that no longer functions online.
So I will add it here because it is invaluable for the information we need here.
Please note that it is important to know what the specs mean and legend is located near the back page.
The important part is:
1) Location of shock (F) or (R). This is important because some models only have a mono shock on the back and therefore will not likely work for us.
2) Length of shock. It must be 15 1/2" or shorter for the back oddy shock (after the above modifications).
3) Stock (yes) -- according to the legend this means it is the same length as the stock shock.

Also important in that pdf is the fact that it could be used to find shocks that fit the oddy front end.


Attachments:
Shock lengths various models.pdf [866.96 KiB]
Downloaded 84 times
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Another update.
Please see the pic below. You will notice that shocks come with an E1 or S1 end. Obviously an S1 is no good to us. So you must look for an E1 style ends.
Trolling the net again it appears that Suzuki is the best candidate for front shocks. They seem to like to run short shocks. Everyone else runs long legged ones. Suzuki are also the E1 style. Some of the long legged ones like Polaris runs are S1.
I could be wrong but the ones I like are the front 1992 Suzuki LT250R or the 1988 LT230S. The LT250 is slightly longer than the oddy and the LT230 is slightly shorter. Both these machines are half the weight of an oddy but I would run the oddy springs. It may be worth a try if a guy is hard up. Bolt sizing is unknown at this time.
When ever I look for shocks in that pdf, I always look for the "Y" symbol which stands for stock. The "WS" symbol means works and it is usually a "different length" than stock. So you can only really use that pdf if you are looking at the "Y" numbers. Otherwise it won't be the same length when you go to the dealer to buy a set. A good example of this can be seen when looking at the FL350 oddy. Check it out -- the stock oddy front shock "Y" is 12.75" long and the works replacement shock "WS" is 13.75".

Just fooling around on the net :-) while I wait for parts for the death machine.


Attachments:
measure22.gif
measure22.gif [ 17.38 KiB | Viewed 1803 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
CO, I did a little looking on shocks. Came up with one you can look at. Poloris 15.5 ,4.7 stroke. Issue is rate at around 125 to 150. Now you could use used shock with new spring around 200. Or call bronco and see f they can supply one with 200. Maybe make work need to look at holes
I feel this is your best route.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Duneit, eseymour72, Garemie, Google [Bot], Lanix, Q, wyeeoddy


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group