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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Cylinder and piston in good condition aswell, maybe my compression guage is broke? Why would it have read so low??


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Well there have been issues on this site before about compression testers. I have two of them. One American made and the other Chinese. The American one is the same reading as my compressor and the Chinese one is out by I think 10 psi. So that could be a possibility. However the only way to know if bore is worn down would be to check like Randman suggested or have a bore gauge. The best way to tell if the rings are worn would be to remove a ring and put it into the cylinder and check the end gap. But the end gap will be large if the bore is worn. So you would have to do both checks here.

Edit: Take your compression tester and borrow one from a buddy and check the compression on a lawnmower or something. That will tell you if yours is out.
Well time to go out into the shop and work on my buggy.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
The next step is to check ring wear (ring end gap).

1.) GENTLY remove the rings from the piston.
2.) Place the rings into the cylinder on a horizontal plane like they would sit if the were attached to the piston.
3.) Measure that gap between the ends of the rings.

Post your findings please.

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Ok so my conpression tester is off by about 20-25 psi and i found that it was leaking. So basically the compression on the buggy would have been in the ballpark of 120-125 hard to say. I measured the rings best i could with elec calipers and this is what i got.
Fir measuring the ring gap i didnt know if you meant the very tips of the rings or across the bore where the piston would be inbetween the rings so i got both measurements lol. The Top ring: inside part of the ring gap 2.72 mm outside smaller gap .74mm across bore 71.85mm Bottom ring inside gap 2.60mm outside .60mm acros bore 71.72mm


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Squibward wrote:
Ok so my conpression tester is off by about 20-25 psi and i found that it was leaking. So basically the compression on the buggy would have been in the ballpark of 120-125 hard to say. I measured the rings best i could with elec calipers and this is what i got.
Fir measuring the ring gap i didnt know if you meant the very tips of the rings or across the bore where the piston would be inbetween the rings so i got both measurements lol. The Top ring: inside part of the ring gap 2.72 mm outside smaller gap .74mm across bore 71.85mm Bottom ring inside gap 2.60mm outside .60mm acros bore 71.72mm


Oh god --- this has happened here before. Oh well.
Anyways to measure your ring gap you put the ring in the cylinder (no piston) and then get a set of feeler gauges and slide it in between the gap.
Using an "electric caliper" is suspect. No way you are going to get it in there and get an accurate reading. Feeler gauges only.
Next check the piston diameter with the "electric caliper" and then the bore. I think max is about .006" but I run a lot more. The bigger this gap is the more piston slap you will get when it fires and you could break a piston skirt. You could probably get away with .008".


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
canadian oddy wrote:
Squibward wrote:
Ok so my conpression tester is off by about 20-25 psi and i found that it was leaking. So basically the compression on the buggy would have been in the ballpark of 120-125 hard to say. I measured the rings best i could with elec calipers and this is what i got.
Fir measuring the ring gap i didnt know if you meant the very tips of the rings or across the bore where the piston would be inbetween the rings so i got both measurements lol. The Top ring: inside part of the ring gap 2.72 mm outside smaller gap .74mm across bore 71.85mm Bottom ring inside gap 2.60mm outside .60mm acros bore 71.72mm


Oh god --- this has happened here before. Oh well.
Anyways to measure your ring gap you put the ring in the cylinder (no piston) and then get a set of feeler gauges and slide it in between the gap.
Using an "electric caliper" is suspect. No way you are going to get it in there and get an accurate reading. Feeler gauges only.
Next check the piston diameter with the "electric caliper" and then the bore. I think max is about .006" but I run a lot more. The bigger this gap is the more piston slap you will get when it fires and you could break a piston skirt. You could probably get away with .008".


A few I have rebuilt had piston to cylinder clearances of greater than .015". Its amazing they even ran! One of Duneit's three were this bad and had a cracked piston skirt.... just short of disintegration!

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Ohhhk sorry, please be patient with me as I am an amateur and know nothing haha.
Ok so the bore is at 78.45mm and the piston at 78.39-38mm which matches the size feeler gauge I could fit.
The end ring gap: top ring is .749mm (.0294 inch) and bottom ring .724 (.0285 inch). Does that sound better?


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Squibward wrote:
Ohhhk sorry, please be patient with me as I am an amateur and know nothing haha.
Ok so the bore is at 78.45mm and the piston at 78.39-38mm which matches the size feeler gauge I could fit.
The end ring gap: top ring is .749mm (.0294 inch) and bottom ring .724 (.0285 inch). Does that sound better?


Your piston and bore are good. Honda service limit on bore was 78.555 and piston was 78.365.
However your measurements indicate a .003 clearance. That seems tight. But according to the manual Honda only ran a .0037 clearance in the first place.

Your ring end gap is about .029 and the manual says .020 is the service limit. That's not bad at all in my opinion. When I replace a piston from Wiseco, every time I check the rings they got .020 right out of the box.

Stock compression was 138 lbs according to manual. You said you got 100 psi on your crap gauge and that gauge was out 25 lbs. Well that's 125 psi -------- at least !!

There is nothing wrong here in my opinion. Your Engine was good. Compression gauge was crap.
Moral of the story -- you gota have good tools.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Basically you had some standard oddy issues. Almost every oddy machine you buy will have some.
You had:
1) bad fuel pump
2) bad compression tester
3) genius tells you it needs a new carb
4) genius drill a hole in the new carb (if brains were explosives some don't have enough to blow their helmet off)
5) another genius hooks up an electric fuel pump
6) was vacuum line plugged when he did this or was the hole open ?? Now you got a huge air leak
7) machine won't idle -- hummmmm I wonder why ??
8) you throw hands up and wanted to go to gravity feed tank -- oh god
9) you tear machine apart

At the end of the day here you needed a fuel pump because you said it was leaking fuel all over. When ever you buy an oddy the first things you do is a compression test, fuel pump flow test, leak down test.
Don't even start the fn thing until you do the above. There is no way to tune or jet an Engine until the above is done. There is also no way to know the condition of your Engine until the above is done.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Yeah no kiddin :/ Atleast im learning how to do this stuff though. Thanks for walking me through it guys!

So i guess ill start cleanup and re-assembly of the Engine, And since it passed leakdown test, bore is good, rings are fine, ill use my buddys good compression tester and see what the real read is.
If that's good then ill do another leakdown just to be sure i didnt screw anything up. And then the next step would be checking the fuel flow to make sure it pumps 4.5 ounces minimum in 10 sec.

Then just sort out the carburator situation. And since work is busy i guess thatl keep me busy for the next few days lol


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Really big thanks to you guys for the help so far, i was getting really frustrated with it... not making any progress and not being able to find anybody locally who could help me. iv had it for almost a year now and iv put an hour or so of actual fun time on it... but now i have something to work with and am actually taking steps to getting this thing going. Thanks dudes.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Squibward wrote:
Really big thanks to you guys for the help so far, i was getting really frustrated with it... not making any progress and not being able to find anybody locally who could help me. iv had it for almost a year now and iv put an hour or so of actual fun time on it... but now i have something to work with and am actually taking steps to getting this thing going. Thanks dudes.


Your not anything special --- read some other posts from new members. They are frustrated, just like you. Then read further into their post after it's sorted out and they are happy as hell.

One other suggestion -- Look at the head gasket. Is it the multilayer metal one ?? If it is then take it apart and use the thinnest one. This will bump the compression. Use a little bit of high temp red silicone.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Yeah its multi layered, 3 sheets. Ill be sure to do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Have to add one more very important thing. Don't know if you mentioned it yet.
A lot of fuel tanks are rusty inside and the two pickup tubes in the tank have very small screens on the ends. Most of the time these are corroded off. Take a flashlight and look into the tank. Are the screens still there or did they fall of and what's left of them still laying in the tank ?? Is the tank rusty inside ?? Are the pickup tubes actually clear and flow fuel ??
A deadly problem to an oddy is a rusty fuel tank and corroded lines that don't flow fuel.
If your tank is dirty then take it to a rad shop and have them clean it.
To check the flow in the pickup tubes, blow air from the shut off valve back through them.
If the tubes are shot then you drill the drain plug nut and install a nipple. Pull fuel from there.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Yes the tank was rusty and I had it cleaned up a while ago, I just checked it again and it’s all clean, fittings good aswell. Although it does have that leak though... even if I didn’t go to grav fed, could I get a new cylindrical tank and still use the same configuration with the pump like on stock tank? I was thinking that might be easier to deal with if hooking it up is the same, plus I don’t have to go through the pain of getting that stock tank out everytime I wanna work on something.

Also I got the Engine back together, compression test was hitting 106-110 psi. Max. But I didn’t do a leak down test yet so... I’ll do that tomorrow to confirm I didn’t screw anything up in rebuild.
I did have a question though, everyone recommends that you let the Engine warm up before doing the compression test to get the most accurate read but obviously I can’t let it run lol and it’s only about 40-45 in my garage could the low Engine temp be screwing with my readings?


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Squibward wrote:
Yes the tank was rusty and I had it cleaned up a while ago, I just checked it again and it’s all clean, fittings good aswell. Although it does have that leak though... even if I didn’t go to grav fed, could I get a new cylindrical tank and still use the same configuration with the pump like on stock tank? I was thinking that might be easier to deal with if hooking it up is the same, plus I don’t have to go through the pain of getting that stock tank out everytime I wanna work on something.

Also I got the Engine back together, compression test was hitting 106-110 psi. Max. But I didn’t do a leak down test yet so... I’ll do that tomorrow to confirm I didn’t screw anything up in rebuild.
I did have a question though, everyone recommends that you let the Engine warm up before doing the compression test to get the most accurate read but obviously I can’t let it run lol and it’s only about 40-45 in my garage could the low Engine temp be screwing with my readings?


1) cylindrical tank: There are a couple of things here. A) Yes use the original set up with pump B) that tank will have to be vented or it won't work C) you need a way to hook up the return line -- no you can't run without it D) that tank will make it top heavy so be aware of that. Tip overs occur easily with an oddy.

2) compression hitting 110 psi: A) That is a bit weak and I azzuming you are using the good gauge. It could have a leak on head gasket area. Do the leak down test. You are doing that test at wide open throttle right ?? I had an Engine with 110 compression and it ran fine until I melted it down B) Don't even start it until you have done a leak down C) cold or hot compression I don't care you choose. Unlikely it will change enough to make any difference.

Just my opinions


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:53 pm
Posts: 124
Ok well it failed the leakdown test this time lol, while pulling the cylinder off I bent the metal gasket in between the cylinder and the case up a bit, it’s leaking now on two sides so I guess I’ll need to order a new gasket. Would that effect the compression?


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
Not if it's the bottom gasket between the case and cylinder.

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Yeah I didn’t think it would. But alrighty, I guess I’ll get a gasket kit ordered in To fix the leak.


So if the bore is good, piston and rings are good why would the compression still be so low? Options to fix this?


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Location: Carson City NV
Did you check the piston to cylinder clearance an the bottom of the piston facing the way it would be in the bore with a feeler gauge? Why I say this is the piston and cylinder will actually wear in an oval shape. If the piston isn't sitting in the cylinder exactly as it would be when it was running, it will not give you the true clearance.

The feeler gauge is only the quick check....the best way to check this is with a dial bore gauge.

What was your ring gap again?

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Yeah I did that with the feeler gauges, was reading .006 or .007.
The end ring gap: top ring is .749mm (.0294 inch) and bottom ring .724 (.0285 inch)

Which I thought we determined was within factory specs, which is why Idont understand how it still has low compression :(


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
canadian oddy wrote:
Your piston and bore are good. Honda service limit on bore was 78.555 and piston was 78.365.
However your measurements indicate a .003 clearance. That seems tight. But according to the manual Honda only ran a .0037 clearance in the first place.

Your ring end gap is about .029 and the manual says .020 is the service limit. That's not bad at all in my opinion. When I replace a piston from Wiseco, every time I check the rings they got .020 right out of the box.


Here is my quote from earlier.
The service limit is .020
You got .029
I didn't feel that was too bad but it looks like it may be. I was wrong then.

Compression gauge tightened up in the sparkplug hole ??
Compression taken at WO throttle ??
No head gasket leak ??


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Ohh okay, yeah maybe that’s it... or maybe I’m off on my measurements and it’s worse than I thought. Since I have to replace the gasket before I move on to next steps anyway. I’ll pull it all out and double check my measurements again... although I’m pretty positive I got em right.
This is what I get for having no mechanical knowledge... screwups and re-do’s lol

Not to mention replacement parts for dumb mistakes lol


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Squibward wrote:
Ohh okay, yeah maybe that’s it... or maybe I’m off on my measurements and it’s worse than I thought. Since I have to replace the gasket before I move on to next steps anyway. I’ll pull it all out and double check my measurements again... although I’m pretty positive I got em right.
This is what I get for having no mechanical knowledge... screwups and re-do’s lol

Not to mention replacement parts for dumb mistakes lol


Don't worry we all make mistakes.
This is the reason college costs so much. Knowledge costs money. The older you get the more you are worth in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Fl350 carb issues
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Wilmington NC
Squibward wrote:
Ohh okay, yeah maybe that’s it... or maybe I’m off on my measurements and it’s worse than I thought. Since I have to replace the gasket before I move on to next steps anyway. I’ll pull it all out and double check my measurements again... although I’m pretty positive I got em right.
This is what I get for having no mechanical knowledge... screwups and re-do’s lol

Not to mention replacement parts for dumb mistakes lol


It’s how you learn and unfortunately, some items for these beasts can be costly. Search this site a lot and google the rest. You can learn a lot in a short period of time when your wallet is on the line.
And when they’re running, it’s worth it all.


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