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 Post subject: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Issue was with the death machine in June 2020.
Machine would not start. It has an AGM battery. Charger showed 95% power and hand meter showed voltage on machine.

I tried a screwdriver across the solenoid but it didn't turn starter.
That should have been the first clue.
I also couldn't hear the electric water pump or electric fuel pump.
That should have been my second clue.
I'm a slow learner.

In short I ripped the machine apart trying to find this problem.
Checked fuses -- all good.
No power across the solenoid when pushing start button according to the meter.
Thought solenoid the issue so I took it apart. Couldn't see nothing so apparently I took it apart just for fun. Purchased a spare solenoid just in case I need it -- apparently just for fun.
The electric fuel pump and the water pump also did not run. I disconnected them thinking they may have a dead short. No go.
Pulled wiring harness apart to look for damaged wires because of that clutch explosion that actually did damage wires but I did fix them at the time. Found nothing.
Pulled starter and rebuilt a spare ---- reinstalled. Still no go.
I thought start switch damaged but sometimes I could here the solenoid click (but not always) so I passed on this being the issue.
Finally after all the bullshyt I installed a spare battery and everything worked.
Did I mention that I hate electrical.
CO


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 816
Location: Palm Coast Florida
When you say the battery was at 95% does that mean 11.4v ? I only ask cause I know how knowledgeable you are about these machines, and I'm surprised you wouldn't have tried to either jump start or charge the battery?


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
What a bummer. Ok I'm a electrician so a few Els on my end.next time you can do a load test of sorts. Put the meter on the battery and see what it says when you hit the start button. If as you say it will go to almost zero or show very low volts. Also check you voltage drop between battery and starter. You put your leads in series with the wire going to the relay and then starter. This will yield a meter reading in voltage or voltage drop. It gives you an idea of there is an issue with connection,wire ,relay or starter.
Mean while keep ridding supplying us will wonderful pics.


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
Maybe next week or two I'll do I post on this. Very easy to do once you see how. It will check both the negitive and positive side of the system as well as components. It just a matter of where you place the leads.
Then I'll do a current leakage test to see if you have a bad voltage regulator ( diode) or unwanted current draw on the system draining the battery as it sets.

I'll dig out one of my old cheap meters. Not every one has a five hundred meter. Not as accurate however will do the job. Using DC volt setting. The current test does require a meter with a DC current (amps) setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
I did a quick drawing.
If you think they will help I will do a few more.
This one is for the negitive side.
It test cable and connections. If there an issue than you can move prob from starter to the next connection like frame ground to Engine and retest moving back toward the battery untill you find bad spot than fix.

The same principle is used on the positive side with different connection points.
Some of the info in pic is from the ody manual for reference.


Attachments:
Ground test.jpg
Ground test.jpg [ 44.64 KiB | Viewed 927 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
What this does is test the ground connections between the battery and starter under load. Under load or cranking amperage from the battery can be effected by these connections failure to let through voltage. The pic showes three connection points. Two of which will carry large amounts of current. The third is for the starter relay and can be intermittent caused by the one from the battery or that part of the interlock system. If you find this to be an issue you can run a bypass wire to Engine ground from battery leaving all others in place. This is a parallel conductor for further testing. If ok than you know it's an ground issue. If still has issue than you can go to a positive test for wireing and components.


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
I did a quick drawing.
If you think they will help I will do a few more.


All info is valuable to this site and people like me.
I'm truly incompetent when it comes to electrical.
Yes I know how to reverse two wires on a 3 phase motur but I have NO CLUE why the motur now runs in reverse. An electrician once told me the electrical was just like hydraulics. Well as a millwright I definitely know how to do hydraulics but I can't seem to apply the logic to electrical because nothing moves. All I know is if I give it the lick test I'll end up on my azz.
Funny part is that my dad was a heavy industry electrician. Apparently a good one. But there was no way he could teach. All he ever did was scream and yell like a Nazi drill sergeant. I guess its our German up bringing. So I never learned. At one job site I worked at the apprentice went to the boss and told him that he's not working with anyone but me. I have the ability to teach I guess, not sure.
CO


Attachments:
File comment: Here is the battery
20200627_203351.jpg
20200627_203351.jpg [ 52.55 KiB | Viewed 918 times ]
File comment: Here is the charger. It cycles to show voltage and %.
20200627_203653.jpg
20200627_203653.jpg [ 49.42 KiB | Viewed 918 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
What a bummer. Ok I'm a electrician so a few Els on my end.next time you can do a load test of sorts. Put the meter on the battery and see what it says when you hit the start button. If as you say it will go to almost zero or show very low volts. Also check you voltage drop between battery and starter. You put your leads in series with the wire going to the relay and then starter. This will yield a meter reading in voltage or voltage drop. It gives you an idea of there is an issue with connection,wire ,relay or starter.
Mean while keep ridding supplying us will wonderful pics.


:shock: :shock: I have no clue what you just said :shock: .
CO


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Why did the charger show 95% then ??
Then when I put it in the machine absolutely NOTHING ??
My batteries rarely stay in a machine. They're always removed after a ride (unless I'm going again the next day), put on a rag and hooked to the charger to verify % of full. If good I disconnect charger.
If a battery is fukd then wouldn't the charger tell me ??

CO


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
How are you with some chemistry?
Our with a hydraulic analogy do.
I can try my best to make it relatable to some shock work we have been doing lately.


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
Just kidding, kinda
The battery charger say is it's charged due to the fact it's has voltage at a low rate of current.
So your meter we read 12+ volts when the voltage(pressure) is at a slow rate of draw. My hydraulic cylinder will lift lite objects however Won't lift a heavy one when the rating of the cylinder and pressure say it can. And there fluid in the tank.
As you hit the start button there's a high current draw which needs pressure to move(voltage). The connectivity from a corrosion like process breaks this connection not allowing a voltage connection to push the current.

So my pump has a bypass bleed,wore out pump or low on fluid in the tank, the fluid can not push the cylinder due to lack of fluid force.

So now the electrical connection is broke, you get dead or open reading. Then the battery cools off and or the charger at a cooler slow rate allowed the connection to re-established.

Now I let of the handle a remove the weight and pump can allow the cylinder to move.

Now for the shock thing, as the fluid is heated up and not enough nitrogen PRESSURE in the rezzy the dampener fails to dampen due to unstable fluid pressure or cavatate or loose connection, Due to unstable fluid. After it slows down and cools down connection is re-established. Now this can also happen in a simple overloaded hydraulic cylinder if the pump has bleed off.



No if the battery read a lower voltage that would mean most likely a dead cell. Each cell divided by 12v four cell would be 3 volt as an example.

Hope I said all that right so it makes since.


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Yup I got that.
So basically the read out on the charger is useless.
The cylinder has no weight on it at that time.
CO


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
I keep my batteries in but I have a battery tender and keep them plugged in


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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
Did some pics to help. Voltages may diff a little between battery type and base line reading.


Attachments:
Ground test.jpg
Ground test.jpg [ 44.64 KiB | Viewed 829 times ]
battery test voltage.jpg
battery test voltage.jpg [ 56.66 KiB | Viewed 829 times ]
battery test voltage under load.jpg
battery test voltage under load.jpg [ 54.17 KiB | Viewed 829 times ]
LINE and LOAD.jpg
LINE and LOAD.jpg [ 16.72 KiB | Viewed 829 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3621
Location: Wichita ks
The rest for now.
When I have time I will do a write up wit them and post in project section.
Mean while play around with it and see what you come up with.
log you results:

Battery Voltage (pressure) test
Battery load test
Ground test
VD-1
VD-2
VD-3
VD-4

Have fun


Attachments:
Voltage Drop 1.jpg
Voltage Drop 1.jpg [ 34.08 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]
Voltage Drop 2.jpg
Voltage Drop 2.jpg [ 34.64 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]
Voltage Drop 3.jpg
Voltage Drop 3.jpg [ 33.75 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]
Voltage Drop 4.jpg
Voltage Drop 4.jpg [ 29.26 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Won't start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7709
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I'm going riding the next few days because the weather FINALLY turned around.
It has now stopped raining after many weeks of on/off of this crap.
Gona see if we can hit the snow line tomorrow.
When I get a chance I will do those tests above. Might be a while though because working on my second bang bang project (can't post) and also have to change a cam sensor on my mom's car.
CO


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