Hi guys another question pops up, one is there anything super special about the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts for the fl250's?, i was looking at them and although they are wierd looking i don't see why one couldnt use some shock eye bushings for the mounts(if one were to be making a new back half) any ideas on this?

as well do they make a complete fl250 Engine rebuild kit? i see stuff on ebay but its like gaskets are 1 "complete" set and bearings are another "complete" set. i would like to rebuild the spare motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) i have and just want to have it all at hand so i don't have to wait for anything.

especially since ive never rebuilt a 2 stroke before.

Yes the mounts are special and I doubt you will make shock eye bushings work, the mounts limit more up and down motion than anything.

All the 250's I have owned came with bad Engine mounts one of the first things I did was replace the mounts with all new then the Engine vibration is controlled as Honda intended and you don't have carb problems because the mounts are bad, belt life is increased because clutch alignment is aliment is correct, sometimes we create many problems for ourself s by not wanting to spend the money for the correct mounts, trust me from experience of working on many 250's the money Honda commands for them mounts is worth it in the long run.

Do you have links to the ebay parts kits your talking about?

The Honda gasket kit part number is 061A0-950-000 service Honda site list it as $35.15 but also list it as Discontinued you might call them to see if it is or if the part number has changed. Toll Free Call 800-828-5498

Crank shaft bearings are part number 91030-950-003 and are $ 24.21 each, IMO I would only use Honda bearings off the shelf bearings might not have the correct internal running clearance right.


Here is an example of a non Honda gaskets performance.
http://pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?t=3077

the main reason i was looking at getting some different motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount style's is because the square tubing i am using is only 2" and the channel that the factory mounts are in is 2.5" and the whole motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount hole is roughly 2" as well.

my thought had been to take a shock bushing mount(of some sort) drill a hole(that fits the smaller dia of the shock bushing) right where the Engine cradle is supposed to be lined up. all the way through then put each half of the shock bushing in each hole and

Only thing I can tell you is the Engine mounts are engineered, they carry the correct movement that does not create problems, IMO it would be faster and easier and in the long run cheaper to use the Honda Engine cradle and mounts.

If your going to draw alot of stuff you can download and use Alibre Design for free, its easy to use and they have online tutorials to teach you.

http://www.alibre.com/training/

Click on the QuickStart Guide

that's cool i will look into it, i normally don't draw this much just have ideas poping into my head on this ody.

do you have any of the alignment spec stuff on the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))?

I have no alignment info on the FL250 I bet Bill Keefe has some I will send him a email

Here is another easy to use cad, not sure if you can save or print out tho, be handy if you needed parts made by them
http://www.emachineshop.com

They also have tutorials

I was reading this and would like to know a little more about the quoted text

http://pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?t=1529



from the pictures it looks like the skidoo motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts are pretty close to what i am invisioning for my fl250's mounts unless im completely wrong.

Hoser, did you use the skidoo mounts in your 440 setup?
alex

did you get a chance to email bill keefe yet on those alignment specs?

and i have been looking at some of the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) cycle design motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts and they are a little more solid mounted than the fl250 is and they are still 2 strokes.

my other thought is that since i have a swing arm with shocks most all the Engine vibration will be absorbed by that and as long as i go with some decent poly or something along those lines i should be able to make something other than those work(if i had realized they were a solid 2" i would have made the main part 2 1/2" square tubing.

also i know that the center of the Engine is supposed to be a certain distance from the center of the clutch, my thought is what about raisng the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) up about 2" higher(even though its the same distance away) that would allow me to use some 2 1/2" square tube to weld ontop of the 2" tube(granted its more weight) but it would allow me to use the stock fl mounts


anyone have pictures of the fl350/400 mounts?

Hi guys, sorry I haven't been around much lately, but the new job has been keeping me busy. I never really liked the FL250 factory motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount setup but they do work pretty good when the mount system is modified slightly and maintained in good condition. The original design works OK, but the mounts need periodic replacement and that adds to the maintenance cost and I feel like if Honda had done a little better design they would last a lot longer.

Honda greatly improved the Engine mount design on the FL350 and the Pilot has the best setup by far. The problem with the 250 mounts is when they get a couple of years old the rubber center tears away from the metal casing and the Engine is free to flop up and down and move around allowing the belt to wear unevenly. I have tried many different things like stacking large washers on the top and bottom and in the end I went back to the factory setup with the rebound limiters on the bottom and adding some angle brackets around the edges of the Engine cradle. I'm sure you could come up with a better setup, but all things considered the end result may not be worth all the additional work involved compared to just modifying the original setup a little.

The 81-84 models Honda added a set of rebound limiters to the bottom of the front motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts and this helps keep the mounts from tearing apart, so if you don't have them I would recommend finding a pair and adding them. The rebound limiters are like big cone shaped washers that limit the upward travel under full throttle. When under throttle the Engine pulls up in the front and torques to the side. The trick to mount life is limiting that travel but still allow for proper slack at idle, but still have correct belt alignment when under full throttle. Frank Callas showed me how to make pieces of angle iron and bolt them to the frame around the front of the Engine cradle allowing for some adjustment of how far the mount moves around, but still maintains belt alignment when under load. If you look at the HRD clutch installation instructions it will show you how to use straight edges for checking static alignment, and you can use sharpie marker pens on the clutch faces to check under load alignment. Also you can feel the clutch faces after running a little bit and see if one side is hotter than the other you know the clutch alignment is out of whack. If you bolt/shim the mounts down to tight with additional washers or restrict the movement to much the Engine vibrations will be transferred to the car and carb problems can arise from excess vibrations as well. I have pictures of a modified mount setup but they are not on this computer and I will have to look around and see if I can dig them up. If you want to see them let me know and I will try and find them. I thought Hoser has the HRD instructions somewhere on this site so I will look for the link when I get a chance.

hey bill nice to see you around - hope things are going well.

OMO
Curtis

bill, thank you for that i would greatly appreciate some pictures of the fl350 and 400 mounts.

im thinking that all i have to do is find some bushings of sorts that are maybe just a little bit more stiff than the factory mounts and i can work with that.

see the main problem is the part where i will be mounting the Engine cradle is only 2" tube and the factory mounts are 2" diameter(i would have to holesaw the whole tube) so i cant do that.

which is why i need to come up with a different design for the mounts.

(Hi Curtis)

I forgot to mention above that a stock Engine does not need any mods to the Engine mount system, it works fine. The only time you need to add angle brackets around the cradle is with a hopped up Engine that puts more stress on the mounts than they were designed for.

Since you are fabbing up a new frame you could just go get a piece of 2" x 3" box and route it to accept the factory style mount instead using of the 2" box tube that won't work. The rear mount bracket can just stick off the rail in the back like the factory 250 does. If you are dead set on a different style mount to work on the 2" tube, then I would try to find an already factory engineered mount off a snowmobile or quad or whatever to transplant instead of making your own. A lot more R&D goes into those mounts than meets the eye and chances of an engineered mount working for you are better than bolting some stuff together and see if it works. At least if you went to the trouble to retain the original mount system, you will have a setup that you know will work and give you very little problems overall.

bill, your absolutely correct i should have gone with 2.5x2 or 2x3 unfortunately i had already made the rear swing arm(see another post) out of the 2" square tube before i realized that i only had the middle piece of the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount(as i had taken the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) off and not realized the outside part had dropped in the bed of the truck)

so i am stuck with this swing arm and finding another mount....i will try to look at some snowmobile mounts and stuff. do you have any suggestion as to anything similar in mount maybe just a little smaller?

my next one(the wifes one) i will learn from my mistakes on this and build that side of the swing arm out of 2x3.

i had planed on using the factory fl rear mount and just weld it to my swing arm.

I've only used factory FL type mounts, so I can't recommend any others from experience.

If you look at the mount Hoser made for his 440 conversion you might try something like what the front of his mount looks like. Make some tab brackets that stick up from the top of the 2" box and bolt some round tube sections in between with 350 or Pilot mounts inserted into them for the mount itself. You might get away with that type setup and not run into to many problems since they work fine on the 350 and Pilot.

The 250 Engine sits more forward and is not centered length wise on the factory Engine cradle, so it acts like a lever. It transfers more of the rotational forces to the front two mounts and less force on the rear mount. During acceleration the Engine cradle pulls up on the front two mounts and the rear mount is subjected to a downward pressure under, that is why Honda did not install a rebound limiter on the rear mount when they revised the original mount system. The rear mount is not as critical in that respect. When the Engine comes off throttle the forces on the rear mount are not great enough to warrant a rebound limiter back there.

Whatever you come up with, try and build it with some adjustability for alignment to correct any deflection that occurs under load. If you make it so it lines up perfectly when static, it will deflect a little bit under load throwing the alignment out, so you will need to design with that in mind. There are also forces from the clutches and belt that kick the Engine to the right and left so you will need to control that movement as well.

bill, that is good good good info...helps me out alot, i may just cut out the 2" square tube i got for the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount, then beef up the back side of it(add a piece of angle iron and what not)

so on my second oddy i am going to use the factory Engine mount system and want to double check that this is all i need x3 of course.

that should be everything for one motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount.

Let me do some digging I might have some of the 50221-950-000 Stopper, Bound thingies, they are steel with a rubber ring on one end not much to go bad or wrong, the rubber Engine mounts are the ones that rot out, I might even have the bolts, nuts and washers to go with them, I haven't see them in years so have to dig.

that would be much appreciated

You only need 2 stoppers in the front, it's not required on the rear mount.

don't you think it would benefit to have it on the rear as well? all though i susppose its only to help the Engine keep from pulling up upon take off...

I did some digging and all I found was old bad rubber mounts I must have used them on the last 250 I had.

You have the Engine cradle ?

yah i have everything and then some stuff....i now have a total of 3 fl250's i am missing one rear axle and 2 rear wheels(anyone have any for sale?)