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 Post subject: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
Hello to all, here we go time to make it work.

I just got the new LT and my old LT to my shop today, I have not leveled the pilot yet but the pictures show one problem that I intend to deal with first.

The first thing I have decided to deal with is the front suspension, my right front does not droop as far down as the left and it has 1.25 inches less travel then the left front. Neither side has what I expected from it, left front 13.75 inches and right front 12.50 inches, I am hoping to get 16 inches out of the front.

The right front lower ball joint is tipped forward a little instead of back a little like the left front lower, this is causing the right front lower ball joint to max out towards the side of the joint at full droop. NO ADJUSTMENT WILL FIX THIS THAT I CAN SEE.

What I feel has to be done is either cut the front section of the right front lower arm off and re weld it at a better angle to the joint or bend one of the bars. I think the best and easiest way to fix this is to bend the front bar section of the lower arm down some close to the heims, bending it down in that area will tip the ball joint back when the arm is re attached. I plan to do very small bends until the joint is center properly.

Here are some pictures.

Any and all help here is very much welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
More.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Ball joints are bottomed out?

How is the caster camber ?

Your sure the steering linkage will work with 16" travel, as found the arms wont make 16" travel.

HOW MANY OF these kits was made before yours?


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm
Posts: 341
Location: North San Diego
SC while you have your ball joints naked and clean , do you have the ability to measure the max angles they can run

Both top and bottom?

If you have an angle finder and can measure that , it would answer a question I can't at the moment


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
hoser wrote:
Ball joints are bottomed out?

How is the caster camber ?

Your sure the steering linkage will work with 16" travel, as found the arms wont make 16" travel.

HOW MANY OF these kits was made before yours?


I think the lower ball joints are bottomed out in these pictures, I have not taken a close look at the uppers.
I am just now getting in to it, I will have better information soon.

I do not know if the steering linkage will work, I do not have outer tie rods and I am missing 2 tie rod ends and 2 heims for the short steering tie rods. I will have to buy the heims again and make the tie rods.

I honestly do not know how many kits have been made, I was told by the builder when I was out there that he had done over 30 kits.

consol wrote:
SC while you have your ball joints naked and clean , do you have the ability to measure the max angles they can run

Both top and bottom?

If you have an angle finder and can measure that , it would answer a question I can't at the moment


Hello consol, I just bought an angle finder today. Yes I will check that for you as soon as I can, please be patient.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Good morning scpilot66

From the pics yes one can see the difference in the arms. With the car frame setting level using your angle finder and a framing square (if concrete pad is some what level) and a vertical laser level. Move the arms up to a point to where the lower arm is level straight across. Now make sure the hubs are in a straight line (parallel) with the center line of the chassis (zero toe). This would be a starting point to take some numbers to for adjustment before Back Yard Hacking (little humor) at the arms. What were trying to do is get some kind of base line to work with. With the arms, hubs, frame set in place measure the distance from the floor to center of the hub. Then use your angle finer and check the camber on the face of the hub. Now place a rim on the hub and use your framing square to find the distance from top to bottom. If there is a gap at the top this is a negative number. If there is a gap at the bottom this is a positive number. Next place the angle finder on the hubs back side to get some sort of caster number. I use the two points where the arms ball joint attach. Do this on both side and compare.

My reasoning behind this is that if the camber and or caster is different from side to side one arm will bind different from the other. An example your right side need more droop If you camber is different than move the upper arm out a turn or two and this would free up the ball joint at the bottom if that is where it is bound or maxed out. If both side for some reason are the same than you have no recourse other than cut and change the center line angle of the ball joint

Now before you cut anything there is more to do. Again back at the first part with every thing set in place. You need to lock this thing is place and lay it out on the floor. Using your vertical laser spot the frame center line front to back. Now using a chalk line snap a line from those two points extending 1-1/2 and half times the width of the front arms ball joint center line. Now using the laser mark the frames front lower pivot point center on the ground on both the right and left side. Now snap a line across those to points with the line extending at least 1 foot past the hub.

Now you can use the 3,4,5 method to check the square (triangulate)of the frame or be close enough for the rest. Now it get fun. Use the laser to spot the ball joints center and measure at a 90 degree to the line and see where there at. As an option you can do the same for the rear lower pivot point as well if you wish.

Now if for some reason the left side is what you need (more to measure) than adjust the right side so it matches and see if it works or not. Do not touch the left if it is correct. I say more to measure because the shock has not been brought into play. You need the eye to eye of the shock and the shaft length to finish measuring for a base line set up of the arms.

Then you can move forward to fixing or setting it neutral and go from there. If the arms can be set up neutral I would pull it and make a simple jig for a base line set up for the future or fix if need be.

By starting this way it will aid in setting up or fixing you rear as you have a template to work with.

When setting it up neutral you would ant the arms set at the same distance from the lower arm line and set at zero caster and camber Do not do this until you have the numbers to work with. Then you can move forward to make it right. You will need to look at camber and caster change through out it cycle and then get a base line setting from a ride height and chassis angle at ride height. an example would be if you need 3 degrees of camber and 2 degrees of caster will the ball joints bind. If you have negative or positive chassis angle will you need less or more caster to make it turn and adjust your camber back after the caster change, this not even bringing toe into it. I now that the upper and lower arm pivot are on a angle and not a flat plain so this is why I say measure from the front pivot. Will get into the rake later.

So first step is to know what your dealing with. I my self have no professional working knowledge other back yard hacking on mine so I hope this help or we can get those who do it for a living to chime in.

Adnoh


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm
Posts: 341
Location: North San Diego
scpilot66 wrote:

Hello consol, I just bought an angle finder today. Yes I will check that for you as soon as I can, please be patient.


For my purposes...you can just pull the spindle and hopefully fit the angle finder on the ball joint stud and go from max in to max out

Will be easier if you pulled the arms and laid them flat

The numbers don't mean anything to me other than the delta (difference) between min and max...as long as the arm doesn't move

I'm guessing the number will be in the low to mid 50's

The upper joint will need the most angular movement as it is the shorter arm

I'll leave the discussion re: setting the ball joints at upper max, etc. to the smarter ones


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
I didn't look real close at the pics, but I do have a couple questions.

Why do anything without the shocks mounted? Wont the shocks limit your travel at full bump and full droop? Who cares what it does without the shocks?

How do you know you want 16" of travel? Is that doable with the stock ball joints?


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
adnoh wrote:
Good morning scpilot66

From the pics yes one can see the difference in the arms. With the car frame setting level using your angle finder and a framing square (if concrete pad is some what level) and a vertical laser level. Move the arms up to a point to where the lower arm is level straight across. Now make sure the hubs are in a straight line (parallel) with the center line of the chassis (zero toe). This would be a starting point to take some numbers to for adjustment before Back Yard Hacking (little humor) at the arms. What were trying to do is get some kind of base line to work with. With the arms, hubs, frame set in place measure the distance from the floor to center of the hub. Then use your angle finer and check the camber on the face of the hub. Now place a rim on the hub and use your framing square to find the distance from top to bottom. If there is a gap at the top this is a negative number. If there is a gap at the bottom this is a positive number. Next place the angle finder on the hubs back side to get some sort of caster number. I use the two points where the arms ball joint attach. Do this on both side and compare.

My reasoning behind this is that if the camber and or caster is different from side to side one arm will bind different from the other. An example your right side need more droop If you camber is different than move the upper arm out a turn or two and this would free up the ball joint at the bottom if that is where it is bound or maxed out. If both side for some reason are the same than you have no recourse other than cut and change the center line angle of the ball joint

Now before you cut anything there is more to do. Again back at the first part with every thing set in place. You need to lock this thing is place and lay it out on the floor. Using your vertical laser spot the frame center line front to back. Now using a chalk line snap a line from those two points extending 1-1/2 and half times the width of the front arms ball joint center line. Now using the laser mark the frames front lower pivot point center on the ground on both the right and left side. Now snap a line across those to points with the line extending at least 1 foot past the hub.

Now you can use the 3,4,5 method to check the square (triangulate)of the frame or be close enough for the rest. Now it get fun. Use the laser to spot the ball joints center and measure at a 90 degree to the line and see where there at. As an option you can do the same for the rear lower pivot point as well if you wish.

Now if for some reason the left side is what you need (more to measure) than adjust the right side so it matches and see if it works or not. Do not touch the left if it is correct. I say more to measure because the shock has not been brought into play. You need the eye to eye of the shock and the shaft length to finish measuring for a base line set up of the arms.

Then you can move forward to fixing or setting it neutral and go from there. If the arms can be set up neutral I would pull it and make a simple jig for a base line set up for the future or fix if need be.

By starting this way it will aid in setting up or fixing you rear as you have a template to work with.

When setting it up neutral you would ant the arms set at the same distance from the lower arm line and set at zero caster and camber Do not do this until you have the numbers to work with. Then you can move forward to make it right. You will need to look at camber and caster change through out it cycle and then get a base line setting from a ride height and chassis angle at ride height. an example would be if you need 3 degrees of camber and 2 degrees of caster will the ball joints bind. If you have negative or positive chassis angle will you need less or more caster to make it turn and adjust your camber back after the caster change, this not even bringing toe into it. I now that the upper and lower arm pivot are on a angle and not a flat plain so this is why I say measure from the front pivot. Will get into the rake later.

So first step is to know what your dealing with. I my self have no professional working knowledge other back yard hacking on mine so I hope this help or we can get those who do it for a living to chime in.

Adnoh


Hello Adnoh, Thank you very much for taking time to help. Very Good of You!!!

consol wrote:
For my purposes...you can just pull the spindle and hopefully fit the angle finder on the ball joint stud and go from max in to max out

Will be easier if you pulled the arms and laid them flat

The numbers don't mean anything to me other than the delta (difference) between min and max...as long as the arm doesn't move

I'm guessing the number will be in the low to mid 50's

The upper joint will need the most angular movement as it is the shorter arm

I'll leave the discussion re: setting the ball joints at upper max, etc. to the smarter ones


Hello Consol, I removed one left upper and lower arm and put them in my vice.

I held the angle finder against the threads of the ball joint, upper ball joint 58*, 29 + 29, lower ball joint 48*, 24 + 24.

bullnerd wrote:
I didn't look real close at the pics, but I do have a couple questions.

Why do anything without the shocks mounted? Wont the shocks limit your travel at full bump and full droop? Who cares what it does without the shocks?

How do you know you want 16" of travel? Is that doable with the stock ball joints?


Hello Bullnerd, I am new to doing this so yes I could very much be going about it wrong but I am wanting to get the suspension to work with as much travel as it will allow before installing the shocks, I do understand that the shocks are going to limit the travel to what they will allow but if I can get the suspension to travel further at the top and bottom of where the shocks will allow then I will at least know that the shocks are the max allowed travel not the suspension. I am going to pull the springs off and install the shocks just to get an idea of where things are now.

I do not know if 16 inches is possible or not, this is what I was told by the builder.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Sounds good, and I wasn't being a smart ass, just curious.

Should be nice once its tweaked inn.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
bullnerd wrote:
Sounds good, and I wasn't being a smart ass, just curious.

Should be nice once its tweaked inn.


No worries.

Thank you and take care.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm
Posts: 341
Location: North San Diego
Awesome update and thank you

So the upper ball joint is 58 deg , slightly more than the 54 deg Ricky stator, frap, Etc.

I'm not able to do the SOHCAHTOA math right now , but now we should know the travel limits vs replacement

But... I have a couple 64 degree ball joints - super secret squirell stuff waiting to be mod'd too work

To note however , I have not taken into account the ball joint strength so far , only the angular travel

Great work and thanks


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
Hello to all, my pilot is back at my shop. I am still finding things wrong, makes me sick sick sick!!!

The first picture shows where one of my lower right front shock mounts has the whole drilled to large by the builder, the other pics show where I have cut out the ball joint in the lower right front control arm and the control arm I cut up to replace this ball joint. Pisses me off, I sent super tight ball joints to the builder and got back crap and now I have to cut up another set of arms that have ball joints that are not as good as the ones I sent to begin with. They are sure as Hell better then the ones I got back though.

The rear radius arms are not long enough so I ordered some metal and some weld in bungs to make new ones.

I have decided to take my wife's pilot down to my shop as well, I am going to set it up leveled the same as my pilot and then base my pilots caster and camber to match.
What do you guys think, is this a good idea or bad idea?


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
More.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 3496
Location: houston
Sorry cant offer any advice.
I had forgot about this,now its 9 months later and your still working on it,man that sucks! I feel for ya,good luck


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
is this by chance a Dave-Co build?


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Man, that stinks you had to cut them apart!

Personally, I would have left it and checked it with the shocks on at full droop. If it wasn't hitting the limits of the BJ, I would be riding the crap out that thing! Fix it IF it breaks, but I doubt it will.

One thing I keep thinking of, is why not use a replaceable balljoint? If your going to build custom arms, at least make the balljoint replaceable.

Make some step washers to take up the difference in the shock holes.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
My front end did the same thing. It's a complete waste of time to worry about the difference. Your arms aren't going to out travel your shocks once everything is installed. So once your shocks are installed both arms are going to perform exactly the same and you will never notice. Bolt it together and ride the piss out of it. The long travel suspension works very very well. Have I measured the numbers on mine? Nope, I could care less about numbers. The suspension works excellent so why focus on somthing that you will never notice from the seat. Currently are your arms limiting the suspension travel, or is it your shock? Why go through the trouble to get the numbers if the shock will not let you use every little bit of travel you achieved without them.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
bullnerd wrote:
One thing I keep thinking of, is why not use a replaceable balljoint? If your going to build custom arms, at least make the balljoint replaceable.

i was thinking the same thing. i know one the trx 450r's you can cut the ball joint off and they make one that you can slide in and bolt on.
at least you were able to cut it out clean and not mess anything up, but personally like other have said i would of went for a ride first and see how it worked, my long travel 350 is slightly different on each side, my own mess up, but the shocked limit the travel so its unnoticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 3496
Location: houston
Kuma wrote:
is this by chance a Dave-Co build?

Yes it was


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
nitrosport_5 wrote:
My front end did the same thing. It's a complete waste of time to worry about the difference. Your arms aren't going to out travel your shocks once everything is installed. So once your shocks are installed both arms are going to perform exactly the same and you will never notice. Bolt it together and ride the piss out of it. The long travel suspension works very very well. Have I measured the numbers on mine? Nope, I could care less about numbers. The suspension works excellent so why focus on somthing that you will never notice from the seat. Currently are your arms limiting the suspension travel, or is it your shock? Why go through the trouble to get the numbers if the shock will not let you use every little bit of travel you achieved without them.



He is not getting anything close to the travel Dave-Co said it would get, he is replacing a lose ball joint I assume for safety reasons Steve is a auto mechanic and owns his own automotive repair business so has a good idea what is good or needs replaced Steve already owned a LT Pilot before the Dave-Co mod and rode the shit out of it the WHOLE IDEA of having Dave-Co do his suspension was to have MORE TRAVEL not to mention I am pretty sure he wants WHAT HE PAID FOR.

I have a feeling if everybody that has a Dave-Co LT Pilot was smart enough to measure what Dave-Co delivered they too would discover Dave-Co is a LIAR! Remove the shocks, remove the springs, reinstall the shocks measure the suspension travel, pretty simple, takes only a hour or so.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
I never measured mine for the advertised or projected travel. I agree with shocks installed whatever was projected travel wise will be lessened or restricted. Does a half an inch matter to me personally? No. Now I am not saying that to be a defender or adding fuel to the fire, I 100% understand the position of a purchaser to expect what he or she pays for. For me the purpose of the kit was for rideability, which IMO is exactly what I got.
I have another pilot still at Dave's getting a kit installed and again I understand projection of travel might be off. It is all about the ride for me. I don't agree with what has happened to Steve and or others that have not posted anything about this kit. For the times I have ridden mine which isn't much lol it performs well indeed.
Again I feel terrible that the situation between the parties has occurred, I am friends with both and had hoped for a better outcome. If I can help you Steve in anyway please just ask! I know one thing after you complete this kit with your attention to detail and skills that thing will be the cats meow, good thread indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
Hello,
I have spent a lot of time figuring this thing out, countless notes and adjustments.

These are pictures of the rear, I got scared of the front and decided to get the rear done first.

The rear shocks are at different angles, I get a little more travel on one side then the other, I am going to run it like this for now but plan on changing the hoops, shock angle and making another set of rear arms. I think 13 inches + can possibly be had but that is a winter project down the road.

I get more free travel from the left rear then the right because the right rear upper swing arm is not quite long enough, I have the heims out as far as I care to for now and it has a little over 13 inches Free travel but if I extend the heims out further I can get a little over 14 inches free travel which is the same as the left rear. ( I do not have exact #'s because my notes are at work ).
I had to make a longer set of radius arms, about an inch longer then I got with the kit, I screwed up though and have to make another set another inch longer so 2 inches longer then was supplied.
I had to cut off the radius arm mounts and redo them, they were installed without room for a heims spacer which would have left the heims rubbing on the mount. I also took a file filed the radius arm tubes that go through the frame for the bolts, they were not flat or angled properly for the heims to sit flush and centered against them. This took a lot of work, thought my arms were going to fall off.
Both rear axles were at different angles, one was at 27.1* LR and the right rear was at 26.25*. The right rear upper shock mount bolt was not straight so I ground the holes to make the bolt straight and to also set both rear axles at 27.1*. I made plates to weld over the ground bolt wholes.

It has been said that it is OK to run the axles at 30* down, I found that at 28* down you can feel a small bind in the outer joint. I would not suggest running any more then 27.5* down on the axles max or I think over time you will wear out your outer cv joint.

I now have a full 12 inches of travel on the rear with the shock on, 12 1/8 on the right rear. The shocks will be the limiting factor in the suspension, full droop and full compression.


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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
More pictures.


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File comment: Rear shock adapters.
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 Post subject: Re: My New LT Pilot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
More.


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