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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Thought I'd record my findings on this setup.

Intake: new intake manifold I had made
Reed cage: CR250 4-petal reeds with the horizontal fin
Engine: Stock with A/Shk cool-head & pre-filter, stock exhaust, stock PE32 carb, 80mm bore, no porting, UNI foam + AEM pre-filter
Altitude: absolute sea-level
Fuel mix: 32:1 with 93 octane Sunoco + Amsoil Dominator
Current main jet: 145 main (142 is stock, but with pre-filter, bore & coolhead it wanted more fuel)

Got the intake and reed cage installed with new gaskets in a jiffy. Buggy starts up easy and idles perfect. Idles at 1650-1750 and EGT at 480'F +/-5'F.

Took a rip around the yard with some short spurts and it rev'd "okay", no vast improvements over prior setup.

Then took a rip down the road for some big WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs. Engine was hitting a "wall" at 3/4-throttle and EGT temps would climb over 1,000'F too quickly. AKA...too lean. SO I know she wants more fuel (intake and CR250 reeds flow a lot more air, so no surprises here).

Couldn't find the envelope with my 148 & 152 main jets. Tried a 160 but, as I expected, it was too fat. On rev-up with the 160 it would garble and smoke and not "open up" much at all past 1/2-throttle.

Getting more Keihin jets when I'm at the Honda shop Tuesday. Stay tuned...

:-) Dan :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Thought I'd record my findings on this setup.

Intake: new intake manifold I had made
Reed cage: CR250 4-petal reeds with the horizontal fin
Engine: Stock with A/Shk cool-head & pre-filter, stock exhaust, stock PE32 carb, 80mm bore, no porting, UNI foam + AEM pre-filter
Altitude: absolute sea-level
Fuel mix: 32:1 with 93 octane Sunoco + Amsoil Dominator
Current main jet: 145 main (142 is stock, but with pre-filter, bore & coolhead it wanted more fuel)

Got the intake and reed cage installed with new gaskets in a jiffy. Buggy starts up easy and idles perfect. Idles at 1650-1750 and EGT at 480'F +/-5'F.

Took a rip around the yard with some short spurts and it rev'd "okay", no vast improvements over prior setup.

Then took a rip down the road for some big WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs. Engine was hitting a "wall" at 3/4-throttle and EGT temps would climb over 1,000'F too quickly. AKA...too lean. SO I know she wants more fuel (intake and CR250 reeds flow a lot more air, so no surprises here).

Couldn't find the envelope with my 148 & 152 main jets. Tried a 160 but, as I expected, it was too fat. On rev-up with the 160 it would garble and smoke and not "open up" much at all past 1/2-throttle.

Getting more Keihin jets when I'm at the Honda shop Tuesday. Stay tuned...

:-) Dan :-)

What is the normal EGT for your Engine in the past? Did you already have the 4 pedal cage or did you find one? What kind of material are your reeds made of? I'm asking because I am planning on changing mine from the 6 pedal to a 4 pedal. Thanks Billy


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
egt can safely be run at 1200*. once you start hitting 1330 plus your Engine might start to melt down


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Thanks I thought the melting point for aluminum was around 1250deg. But if you think about it its not a constant temp. so I just learned something new. Never thought about it that way. Thanks again Billy


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
I don't remember the idle temp from before the change to the new intake and 4-petal reed, but kinda' feel it was the same range. Nothing should've changed at idle whatsoever. Even with the different setup, the flow is so low that it won't matter much.

Prior prior setup with the 142 main...I could hold WOT (Wide Open Throttle) on a long run and the EGT would get to 1100-1225'F. Didn't like having to back off WOT (Wide Open Throttle), so I upped the main.

Prior setup with the 145 main...I could hold WOT (Wide Open Throttle) on a long run and the EGT would get as high as about 1080-1090'F. Good power and never any issues. Good throttle up & down. Chocolate-brown plug.

New setup with the new intake, reed cage, 145 main...hit a 'wall' at 3/4 throttle and when holding WOT (Wide Open Throttle) it would climb to 1100'F even before she was actually running hard WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Throttle didn't have the 'snap' like it used to when jammed to WOT (Wide Open Throttle). I could feather the throttle and get 'er to rev into the 6-7k rpm range, but EGT would outpace throttle. And the exhaust gas was pretty minimal. This generally means LEAN.

New setup with the next size main jet I had on hand then & there (160)...when I'd crack the throttle she'd spit a little and blew all kinds of smoke, not letting it crack open and rev out. Way too fat. Expected this though. I have a ton of Keihin jets 160-200 for the Zilla, but not much on the low end, and doesn't help I lost my extra Fl350 jets.

Plans...new setup with 148, 150, 152 & 155 main jet. Picking up jets tomorrow at HondaEast Toledo (or today from the Harley shop). Once the throttle behavior is decent, I'll crack her open and watch the EGT. Once EGT's look respond well, I'll plug chop. Yes, that may sound backwards (EGT is never 'the' answer), but I know my machine & its EGT well.

And yes, I spent enough time at each setup to clear out any of the carb's prior habits, fyi. Also getting really good at changing the main jet from under the buggy with a 6mm socket, lol.

Goes to show how DIFFERENT your carb settings can be with slight changes to the air-stream (more air), and how easy it could be to just run-what-you-brung and blow it up. Need to check your plug chop, and I recommend an EGT gage. Two-strokes aren't that complicated, but you need to listen to what they're saying & doing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
I don't remember the idle temp from before the change to the new intake and 4-petal reed, but kinda' feel it was the same range. Nothing should've changed at idle whatsoever. Even with the different setup, the flow is so low that it won't matter much.

Prior prior setup with the 142 main...I could hold WOT (Wide Open Throttle) on a long run and the EGT would get to 1100-1225'F. Didn't like having to back off WOT (Wide Open Throttle), so I upped the main.

Prior setup with the 145 main...I could hold WOT (Wide Open Throttle) on a long run and the EGT would get as high as about 1080-1090'F. Good power and never any issues. Good throttle up & down. Chocolate-brown plug.

New setup with the new intake, reed cage, 145 main...hit a 'wall' at 3/4 throttle and when holding WOT (Wide Open Throttle) it would climb to 1100'F even before she was actually running hard WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Throttle didn't have the 'snap' like it used to when jammed to WOT (Wide Open Throttle). I could feather the throttle and get 'er to rev into the 6-7k rpm range, but EGT would outpace throttle. And the exhaust gas was pretty minimal. This generally means LEAN.

New setup with the next size main jet I had on hand then & there (160)...when I'd crack the throttle she'd spit a little and blew all kinds of smoke, not letting it crack open and rev out. Way too fat. Expected this though. I have a ton of Keihin jets 160-200 for the Zilla, but not much on the low end, and doesn't help I lost my extra Fl350 jets.

Plans...new setup with 148, 150, 152 & 155 main jet. Picking up jets tomorrow at HondaEast Toledo (or today from the Harley shop). Once the throttle behavior is decent, I'll crack her open and watch the EGT. Once EGT's look respond well, I'll plug chop. Yes, that may sound backwards (EGT is never 'the' answer), but I know my machine & its EGT well.

And yes, I spent enough time at each setup to clear out any of the carb's prior habits, fyi. Also getting really good at changing the main jet from under the buggy with a 6mm socket, lol.

Goes to show how DIFFERENT your carb settings can be with slight changes to the air-stream (more air), and how easy it could be to just run-what-you-brung and blow it up. Need to check your plug chop, and I recommend an EGT gage. Two-strokes aren't that complicated, but you need to listen to what they're saying & doing.

Thanks for the numbers, I am trying to decide if I will get one or not. I rely totally on plug to see what is going on inside the chamber. Post up when you figure out more this is helping me a lot on my decision to get one or not. I'm old school "got to look at the plug" then make changes. Thanks Billy


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Did manage to try the next couple of jet sizes, with each size improving.

155 -- still too fat, but much better than the 160. Tough to get past 5k RPM. Smokey.
152 -- still too fat, but will rev a little further out to 5.5k or so. Little less smokey.
148 -- revs out to about 6.1k rpm.

I had the buggy up on two jack stands with the front bumper against a barn pillar. Don't care how secure the jacks & pillar are...I'd pee a little every time I'd rev that thing out to WOT (Wide Open Throttle), lol !! FYI - I put it up in the air so the transmission can move and keep those input shaft bearings lubricated. Never ever a good idea to just stand on the throttle in neutral unless you're not running a belt while tuning/testing.

Did not get a chance to go for a ride though. I want to do a leakdown check before the next ride to make sure my new intake gaskets (homemade) are sealing. Also want to stick the stock reed cage back in there. Not sold on the CR250R reeds yet. And for the sake of dialing the Engine in perfect with the new manifold, I really should be running the stock cage just so I have an apples to apples comparison (old intake vs. new). Also waiting on a new gel battery to arrive. My el cheapo didn't survive the long cold winter on the trickle charger. Been using the 12v/10A setting on my Craftsman charger/jumper to start it and just waiting for it to fry something.

Was gone all weekend at 4 family Easter parties (my family is 'complicated', lol). And got the '88 Zilla out, cleaned up, fluids changed, and took some hot laps around the big block. I wish I could have the same throttle response on my buggy that my Zilla delivers -- such sick power!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
How did you make out with this in the end D$$.
145 to lean (initial jet)
148 & 152 could not find envelope.
160 to fat, 155 & 152 still fat but getting better.
148 only revs out to 6000
If 145 was lean and 148 only revs to 6000 and others were fat what happened in the end ??
Just curious ??


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Sorry, I haven't been able to mess with it since Good Friday. Go back a post and you can see my "plans" once I get a couple-few hours.

With all the rain coming this week, I had to scramble and get my yard squared away (mowed, thatched, sucked, aerated, seeded). I'm one of those lawn dorks, yes. lol Constant 15-18mph cold lake winds all weekend sucked the life outta' me! Also had to take a trip up to IKEA to pick-up 4 big items (in 8 boxes) for my mom, as I'm the person in the family with the truck, trailer, and strong back. And I get to spend the next couple of rainy evenings at her place putting it all together. SO...hoping to get back to my plans for buggy #1 later this week.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Tonight has been designated a "buggy night". :-)

#1. Remove the CR250R reed cage.
#2. Install the stock reed cage.
#3. Leakdown test.
#4. Run it.
#5. Carefully cut the stuffer out of the CR250R intake to use on the FL350.
#6. Swap reed cages back to the CR250R w/ new stuffer
#7. Leakdown check.
#8. Run it.

And if I'm still awake...
#9. Torque the Zilla #2 Engine to spec.
#10. Leakdown check.
#11. Install it in the frame.
#12. Start 'er up.


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Could not dial in the cr250 reed cage. Went back to the stock cage with steel reeds, and she runs good on the 148 main. Not too Smokey, but will load up a little off & on. Starts & isles at 1900rpm like clockwork. Hence, I think the 145 is still the ticket. Which means...the Engine is behaving the same with the new intake (which is what I wanted). :)

*ADDED LATER: Don't know how I forgot to mention this, but I also found our I did NOT have the carb slide hold-down pin installed. So this may explain some erratic behavior during my initial attempts with the CR250 reed cage. But in the end, even with the carb setup right, I couldn't get a good balance of power-band & EGT performance with the CR250 reeds with main jet adjustments.

Rear brakes need adjusting or bled BAD! I tore down an extra rear caliper for rebuild. But the master cylinder screw heads are stripped and need drilled out. Fun.


New gel battery is leaps & bounds Vetter than the Duralast crap one I had.

Decided to clean up the parts stash and realized I have A LOT of Oddy fenders...


Attachments:
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File comment: Did use my phone as a speedometer and almost hit 53mph. She's got a little more in her though, but not enough to time-travel (lol).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Well, I'm back to the stock reed cage, but with Boyesen reeds and a stuffer. I've massaged the stuffer to better match the Dan-i-Fold's opening, too. Also used a LIGHT bead of RTV sealant on the reed cage (Engine side), as the cage isn't exactly the smoothest thing ever there. RTV went on last night, so I need it to cure 24hr.

Hoping to get the airbox back on tonight and see how she likes the changes. Stay tuned...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
With the Dan-I-fold, stock reed cage, and stuffer...the Engine seems to respond much better to carb idle adjustments. And I've got a pretty smooth idle at 1500rpm. I've never seen it idle so smooth that low. Too late for high speed runs and revs tonight. Throttle response up and down seems pretty good to, but only cracked it once. I let her run for a good 5-6 minutes in the barn and she just purrrrred. :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Took the buggy for a ride tonight, and she rips! I can shred grass and scorch the tires on take-off now. No more hesitation.

Temps were good. Idles 400-430'F once she's warmed up at 1500rpm, and hits 1100-1170'F on WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs.

Then I got some air coming back into the yard and smacked the driveway edge hard. Effing brakes SUCK. I adjusted them, but I made them worse. Knocked the carb out of the boot. So, I need to tighten the carb boot all the way, plus get some brake upgrades STAT.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
UPDATE: Carb is back in the boot and not going anywhere. Idles perfect. I used a piece of 3/8" rod about 15" long to slide behind the carb bowl and then leverage it towards the Engine. THEN tightened the carb flange clamp down. The stock down tube is a tad stiff, so pushing the carb forward with my fingers simply wasn't good/far enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Took the buggy for a ride tonight, and she rips! I can shred grass and scorch the tires on take-off now. No more hesitation.

Temps were good. Idles 400-430'F once she's warmed up at 1500rpm, and hits 1100-1170'F on WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs.

Then I got some air coming back into the yard and smacked the driveway edge hard. Effing brakes SUCK. I adjusted them, but I made them worse. Knocked the carb out of the boot. So, I need to tighten the carb boot all the way, plus get some brake upgrades STAT.


Since you are trying to fly right away here is something I was told:
'Airspeed, altitude, and brains. Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight.'


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Took a few hot laps in the buggy today, and noticed the Engine stepped its idle up from 1500 to 1900. Then I noticed dripping fuel. Turns out I lost a carb bowl screw. Got it fixed, put back together, and she purrs at 1300-1500 again.

Carb is pretty sensitive to idle adjustments via the idle screw now. A quarter turn pushes it up 300-400rpm. Temps are good.


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