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D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=9421		 Page 5 of 5
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Finally an update! Waiting for this real estate crap to finalize freed up some time.

Still in virtual mode, but progressing. Just spent some time on the front suspension for the extended chassis including rear mount brackets and bulkhead front mounts. Picked up a pair of Fox 2.0 air's off a Drakart with 6" stroke and 19" e2e length for a steal a few months back for this project. So, designing around them and a scratch-made set of arms & spindles. Pro/E makes testing the bump & droop effects very quickly. I'm close on the arm design, but only in wireframe -- no tube arms yet. Planning on using heims with high m/a spacers, 5-deg rake, 5.75" travel. Arms as shown make for a 52" wide front, but with the stretched frame it will need to be wider.

Sneak peek...

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File comment: The orange thing is just to mock up a strut tower so I can position the top mount in the right spot...
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Author:  bullnerd [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Model looks great!

Congrats on the new shop!(oh and the house too).
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Learned some lessons in the virtual world, did some more studying, tweaked the wireframe kinematics, and finally got some LT geometry modeled that works fairly nice. It's been a slow work-week because we're still unpacking all the boxes at the new casa in the evenings. ;)

Some things I need to do yet...
...that upper rear mount needs to be turned IN to allow the heim to float within its spec travel.
...on the bulkhead, the inner pivots need to be a little closer together (vertically) so I can shrink the spindle height down.
...all of the a-arm stuff is done in 1.25" tubing (i'd prefer it to be 1" x .090 DOM), and the heims are 5/8" (would prefer 1/2").
...add the strut upper/lower braces, the strut, and then re-check the clearances and travel.

But I really just wanted to get something modeled to understand the geometry.

And in the last couple of pics, you can see the complexity that goes into getting all the parts modeled, assembled, and then oriented/constrained so the whole thing can be articulated up & down. And that's with the frame and bulkhead stuff surpressed! It takes time, that's for sure. But I love this crap! :-)

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Author:  bullnerd [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
lookin good Money!

Do you have enough clearance to the inside of the rims for turning?

I'm jealous of you SM guys!
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Regarding wheel clearance, no. That's why the spindle height needs to be about 1" shorter. Also, those are dummy hubs.
Author:  Puffie40 [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
I am very impressed with the planning that you are putting into the project. It's looking really good.

May I have a copy of the frame mock up? I have been wanting to build an Odyssey/Pilot for a while now, and this might be my best chance for actual dimensions of the frame.

Chris
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Thanks. It's waaaay cheaper to plan and play in the virtual world! Finally got my #1 buggy and tube bender to the new house, so hoping to move a little faster soon. Hoping...

As far as the frame file goes, sure. PM me your email and I can send an iges or step file of the chassis. I'd say its 97% right on. :-)
Author:  Puffie40 [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
PM sent :-)
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Holy Mother of God...D$ finally started working on the Rotax buggy this weekend!

Starting a new build thread for it, since this one is more "tube-bender-and-misc-design-BS" than anything else...
Author:  yagua [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Quick question, why are you pushing the front wheels forward? Why not mount the a-arms like those "bolt on" a-arms conversion?
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
[1] I wanted to use cnc'd bulkhead plates for the front mounts, and wanted something like the Drakart front end. I was trying to get more travel (or better than bolt-on quad arms) without going super-wide. So I brought the front mounts inward to a bulkhead at the center of the buggy, and then laid the rear mounts back further. The result is more motion at a decent width. Quad arms & spindles usually make for a wide front, and are designed to only travel "so much" for a lighter, mid-engine chassis (such as a quad).

[2] And since you generally need to add some tube sub-frame to the chassis for an LT front, I figured I might try to stretch out the front, too. But the rigid-frame front bumper is a no-no, and it needs to have a bolt-on bumper to provide a crumple zone (not crumple the frame & bulkhead).

[3] And I prefer heims over tube/bolt mounts.


Get some more performance...get some more desert buggy look/proportions...avoid the giant-pawed-kitten-look...you follow?

I've actually got a set of LT500R arms I've been playing with, but the damn width is ridonkulously huge when they're on. Plus the travel and angles I want out of them is more than for which the ball joints were designed. To get what I want, it'll have to be scratch-built.
Author:  B S [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Almost there. The 3D cad definitely saved a few real iterations.

The die will be a 360-deg die with a shoulder milled down to accept the tube strap. Still toying with the strap design though. The standard JD dies have that straight "leg" that the strap attaches to (weldment), and then has a tension bolt. Too complicated and takes more millwork to reproduce. I'm wondering if I can just put a pin there and use it to attach my tubing vice grips (?).

Also, the newer JD benders have a follow bar with Delrin inserts. To make the follow bar simpler to build, I'm going to simply take a block of Delrin and use my 1.5" hole saw to get a 4" long section of radius. Then attach that to a 4" long piece of square DOM tubing.

Tally thus far:[list] - Bender plans: Free
- 12" of 2"x12" HRS strap in 3' sections (shipping included): $80
- Aluminum T6061 T651 round bar, 9" OD x 2" thk: $49 each, shipped = Net $98
- Some .120 DOM tubing 1-1/4", 1", 3/4" OD: $32
- Bender stand: Free
- All pins: Free (misc parts & stock I have)
- Grade 5 bolts: $25
- Machine time: pro bono, of course!
TOTAL: $235 for a bender, stand, 1.25" die set, and 1.5" die set. Me likey!

do u happen to have those plans still?
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Yep, still got the plans. Let ne see if u can't find the site I downloaded them from free & clear. If I can't, I'll email the PDF's.
Author:  yagua [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
Would you be willing to share the plans for the a-arms? I'm looking into fabing them up myself.
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
yagua wrote:
Would you be willing to share the plans for the a-arms? I'm looking into fabing them up myself.


There are no prints, and the geometry/lengths have never been tested in real world. Only exists in the virtual 3d far world. Just a pretty picture that has good motion. And my chassis model is like 95% accurate. So...plans won't do you any good. They need to be scratch built, tested, tweaked, etc.
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Yep, still got the plans. Let ne see if u can't find the site I downloaded them from free & clear. If I can't, I'll email the PDF's.


Found 'em!

Here are the plans and instruction booklet from "The Chopper Handbook", all FREE PDF downloads. There are two different bender versions:
- http://www.chopperhandbook.com/bender.htm
- http://www.chopperhandbook.com/cbh-bender-1.pdf

Skip the ratchet and handle parts and just get the HF air/hyd ram, TRUST ME. Although it does use good amount of air volume, so you'll need something a little more than a simple pancake compressor. Here is the hydraulic cylinder from HF (don't forget to find a 20% coupon in their ad or in Four-Wheel & OffRoad magazine):
- http://www.harborfreight.com/8-ton-long ... 94562.html

Here is the cylinder bracket from Swag Offroad (I chose the un-welded version):
- http://www.swagoffroad.com/Tubing-Bende ... _p_53.html

For the tubing holder (mounts on the die), I found these 1/2" thick square "spacers" with a perfect 1.25" hole in them on evilBay for like $2. Hey, go figure, they still sell them for $2!
- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-Washer-S ... 2c63f9f4e5

Ordered all my steel online, too:
- 2-1/2x1/2 CRS 1018 flat bar: http://stores.ebay.com/Industrial-Metal ... 7675.l2563 (only 60-minutes from me in MI)
- DOM tubing from evilBay, as needed.
- Bolts/pins either had or got from the local big box hardware store


It's a functional basic tubing bender, but then add the air/hydr cylinder and and nice die, and you have a pretty nice, tough, affordable bender you can build MOSTLY WITH JUST A DRILL PRESS, CUT-OFF SAW, AND DECENT WELDER. Well...you'll have to buy dies or make them (accepts JD2 dies), and the guide shoe has some machined parts (or figure out something different). The guide shoe could easily be made using the 1.25" ID spacers (halved) and some heavy square tubing.

The plans are straight-up on-target. I just modeled them in Pro/E to make sure everything was A-okay, and made myself some 1:1 templates for locating holes with the punch.

I've only made THREE bends on my bender, but they've been pretty nice with minimal deformation (all bends deform the tube slightly). Should be getting more use soon.
Author:  crackerwarrior [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
This ever get finished?
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: D$ FL350R Ressurrection #2 (AKA: DIY Tube Bender)
No, the front suspension never got finished. The project turned into a maze of spin-off projects including modeling the chassis in CAD, building a tube bender, and virtually designing the front suspension. Then spring came and priorities shuffled.

That's pretty much the same front arm design I want to roll with on my Rotax buggy. The same buggy is also the one I'm experimenting with the rear LT with Polaris parts.

This spring/summer I will definitely be doing more cutting/welding/fab'ing and less "desk work".
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