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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
After having my Engine rebuilt I wanted to know the static compression so I would know whether or not I would be using "pump" gas or "racing" gas or in my case modifying the current set up to run on pump gas. We can bring elevations and octane numbers into the conversation but I wanted to focus on (our geological location) compression readings and the different gauges that measure static compressions in 2 stroke, and automobile engines. However if anything else should be brought up, elevations,ambient temps, Engine modifications, feel free to chime in.
Since it is important to know what our Engine's compression is in order to determine when to change piston rings or refurbish our top ends, it is good to have a compression gauge that has a "precise" measurement, meaning that the gauge will consistently read the same number if I were to take the measurement, lets say, 10 times in a row and also just as important that if our compression was to change and become lower, lets say, 3 lbs, the gauge will precisely(or close to) read 3 lbs lower and consistently read 3lbs lower. I use the 10 times in a row for an example.
To explain, the "actual" compression could be 160lbs but our "precise" gauge is reading 150lbs, though the gauge is not reading an "accurate" measurement, it is however reading a "precise" number in that it will hopefully ALWAYS read 10 lbs lower than the ACTUAL compression, which most of our gauges will unless its just a crap gauge. I don't believe that it is as important to have an accurate gauge if you start with a newly rebuilt STOCK Engine or if you know your gauge might be slightly off as long as it is always off the same amount. If we know that our newly rebuilt stock top end is supposed to have about 160lbs of compression, and our "precise" gauge reads 150lbs, over time our compresson will drop and when our "precise" gauge reads 135ish, then we know its time to refurb the top end. Some will want to refurb top end at different compression reading but that's not the point here.
Next lets talk about an "accurate" compression gauge. One that will accurately read what the ACTUAL compression of our Engine is capable of. In other words, if my ACTUAL compression is 160lbs, then my "accurate" gauge should read about 160lbs. I believe the reason to have an "accurate" gauge is that if I were to put together a modified top end as Hoser graciously did for me, I would want to know the actual compression of my Engine so I could determine what octane gas I need to use for that Engine or if I wanted to modify the Engine to run on lower octane it would be helpful to know the actual compression.
Ok so that being said, I purchased a gauge that I believe will give me an accurate compression reading. I chose the inexpensive Mercury Quicksilver model #91-29287 compression gauge, see pic below. It is 2-1/2 iinches tall(from the head) and will easily fit the pilot or my CR500 top end which has even less room. This gauge was designed for small swept volume (like a 4 or 6 cylinder outboard)and also to allow a tight fit for some of the Mercury outboards.
Heres why I think the Quicksilver gauge will give me a more accurate reading. Unlike many of the automotive compression gauges where a large diameter hose is running from the sparkplug fitting to the gauge, on the Quicksilver gauge, the schrader valve is less than 1 inch from the combustion chamber so there is no hose that will add to the swept volume that will have to be filled on every stroke of the Engine therefore giving me a more accurate measurement. Now maybe once the engines starter has turned over enough times to fill the hose, this wont affect my reading but that's something that can be discussed in this post. that's why I posted this :-) .
I don't believe, in my case, my new gauge has to be dead on balls, but i want a gauge no more than plus or minus 3 lbs.
that's all the ramblings I can think of for now so I would like to hear others inputs and comments. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:16 am 
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Location: Carson City, NV
My uncle has been a boat mechanic for over 30 yrs. He always recommended that gauge because of the fact that it was more accurate without having a hose. It would be interesting to compare readings using different testers and see what difference would be found. I will try to borrow his and compare it to the summit racing one that I own.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:17 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
I did a similar test when I first bought my pilot. After I did a top end rebuild, I used an autozone quality compression tester with no hose and it read around 130psi which was very low and freaked me out. Questioning the tester, I borrowed my old mans compression tester. He's owned a mercedes mechanic shop for 30 years. It was a snap on tester that had a hose and the compression came out to 148. My dad has the tester calibrated every year. I bought a used snap on tester and had it calibrated and came out to 147 psi. Don't know much about compression testers but I think the accuracy of the tester won't be thrown off too much by the length of the hose.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:02 am 
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Location: Chicago
Shrader on my compression tester is right at the end of the hose, hose volume should not be a factor you crank the Engine until the pressure stops rising the volume in a 10' long hose might need the piston to cycle on the compression stroke one more time than a hose 1' long the volume in the hose is not all that great.

I have no clue how accurate my tester is today I compared it to a few other testers of higher quality years ago it was with in a few lbs of the others.

I check compression after a rebuild and record that value then check compression periodically to monitor on a Pilot Engine any drop in pressure the Engine gets torn down to find out why, WHY because I found it NOT NORMAL for the compression to drop during the life of rings on my engines, I have never found ring seal to be a problem if you suspect your rings are not sealing you need to take it apart and find out why before further damage to the Engine is done, a 2 stroke will run "perfect" ever after one ring is 50% missing and being chewed up by your still running Engine.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:09 am 
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Location: Monette Ar
I work at a power plant and have a nuclear power history with lots of gauge experience. The gauge quality and accuracy is what I look for. I changed my actual gauge out with an Ashcroft gauge after trying to calibrate the one that came with my kit.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:24 am 
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Location: Chicago
ChrisV wrote:
I work at a power plant and have a nuclear power history with lots of gauge experience. The gauge quality and accuracy is what I look for. I changed my actual gauge out with an Ashcroft gauge after trying to calibrate the one that came with my kit.



That kind of accuracy is unimportant to me because of all the factors involved with a 2 stroke Engine, I reply on the compression ratio method to determine the safe compression for my engines I then use the compression tool accurate or not to monitor the engines life.

Read this for more details http://www.sacoriver.net/~red/uccr.html

I use to have a friend take my torque wrenches in to the local nuke plant every year to check the calibration they were always fine, havent tested them in a few years probably should have him test again to make sure they are still good...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:13 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
MAS Racing wrote:
My uncle has been a boat mechanic for over 30 yrs. He always recommended that gauge because of the fact that it was more accurate without having a hose. It would be interesting to compare readings using different testers and see what difference would be found. I will try to borrow his and compare it to the summit racing one that I own.


Thanks for the reply, that's good news Im glad to hear that. I couldnt find anything by Googling that gauge. At least no one had tested it for accuracy.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
cruz_01 wrote:
I did a similar test when I first bought my pilot. After I did a top end rebuild, I used an autozone quality compression tester with no hose and it read around 130psi which was very low and freaked me out. Questioning the tester, I borrowed my old mans compression tester. He's owned a mercedes mechanic shop for 30 years. It was a snap on tester that had a hose and the compression came out to 148. My dad has the tester calibrated every year. I bought a used snap on tester and had it calibrated and came out to 147 psi. Don't know much about compression testers but I think the accuracy of the tester won't be thrown off too much by the length of the hose.


I had the same experience with a FL350 top end. For the last 4 years I have been using a gauge I got from the auto parts store that you have to hold down onto the head so it will seal , now I have a Matco with a long hose.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:31 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
hoser wrote:
Shrader on my compression tester is right at the end of the hose, hose volume should not be a factor you crank the Engine until the pressure stops rising the volume in a 10' long hose might need the piston to cycle on the compression stroke one more time than a hose 1' long the volume in the hose is not all that great.


You know my Cool head has two different domes, one is 66cc and the other is 63cc. Would adding a hose that has 10cc volume be similar as adding 10cc volume to dome?

hoser wrote:
I check compression after a rebuild and record that value then check compression periodically to monitor on a Pilot Engine any drop in pressure the Engine gets torn down to find out why, WHY because I found it NOT NORMAL for the compression to drop during the life of rings on my engines, I have never found ring seal to be a problem if you suspect your rings are not sealing you need to take it apart and find out why before further damage to the Engine is done, a 2 stroke will run "perfect" ever after one ring is 50% missing and being chewed up by your still running Engine.


that's what I do, I have a couple spiral notebooks, I still have a notebook from my FL350 days :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Location: Chicago
stix wrote:
hoser wrote:
Shrader on my compression tester is right at the end of the hose, hose volume should not be a factor you crank the Engine until the pressure stops rising the volume in a 10' long hose might need the piston to cycle on the compression stroke one more time than a hose 1' long the volume in the hose is not all that great.


You know my Cool head has two different domes, one is 66cc and the other is 63cc. Would adding a hose that has 10cc volume be similar as adding 10cc volume to dome?

hoser wrote:
I check compression after a rebuild and record that value then check compression periodically to monitor on a Pilot Engine any drop in pressure the Engine gets torn down to find out why, WHY because I found it NOT NORMAL for the compression to drop during the life of rings on my engines, I have never found ring seal to be a problem if you suspect your rings are not sealing you need to take it apart and find out why before further damage to the Engine is done, a 2 stroke will run "perfect" ever after one ring is 50% missing and being chewed up by your still running Engine.


that's what I do, I have a couple spiral notebooks, I still have a notebook from my FL350 days :-)



Does the tester your using have the shrader at the end of the hose where it screws into the head?

If not you could always cc the hose so you know exactly how much volume you added to the combustion chamber...

I just use a 60cc syringe to cc things picked up one at the local farm store that sells stuff for horses and cows..


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
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Location: CT
Cheap gauges are good for one thing, buying toys off craigslist, show up with a cheap gauge that always reads low, check the compression in front of the guy, and tell him the Engine is junk and needs a rebuild, the price drops. (I have a gauge that always reads 120psi)
If you are concerned about your engines health, then buy a quality gauge and know what you have for an accurate reading. What good is a tool if it does not work properly?
You can fill the hose with liquid to eliminate the volume loss. (just be sure your gauge can be used with a liquid as some gauges will fill the glass area with the liquid)
With the hose filled, your compression reading should be taken on the 4th TDC (Top Dead Center) event with a cranking rpm of 175 minimum.
Cranking compression is just a number used to monitor the health, a gauge offering repetitive results is important.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:57 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
hoser wrote:
stix wrote:
hoser wrote:
Shrader on my compression tester is right at the end of the hose, hose volume should not be a factor you crank the Engine until the pressure stops rising the volume in a 10' long hose might need the piston to cycle on the compression stroke one more time than a hose 1' long the volume in the hose is not all that great.


You know my Cool head has two different domes, one is 66cc and the other is 63cc. Would adding a hose that has 10cc volume be similar as adding 10cc volume to dome?

hoser wrote:
I check compression after a rebuild and record that value then check compression periodically to monitor on a Pilot Engine any drop in pressure the Engine gets torn down to find out why, WHY because I found it NOT NORMAL for the compression to drop during the life of rings on my engines, I have never found ring seal to be a problem if you suspect your rings are not sealing you need to take it apart and find out why before further damage to the Engine is done, a 2 stroke will run "perfect" ever after one ring is 50% missing and being chewed up by your still running Engine.


that's what I do, I have a couple spiral notebooks, I still have a notebook from my FL350 days :-)



Does the tester your using have the shrader at the end of the hose where it screws into the head?

If not you could always cc the hose so you know exactly how much volume you added to the combustion chamber...

I just use a 60cc syringe to cc things picked up one at the local farm store that sells stuff for horses and cows..


The valve is right at the gauge, no valve at the end of the hose.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:58 pm 
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King Kx wrote:
With the hose filled, your compression reading should be taken on the 4th TDC (Top Dead Center) event with a cranking rpm of 175 minimum.
.


that's good to know


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:27 am 
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Location: Carson City, NV
I know that I said my uncle uses that gauge but I don't know if it is still made quality. His is 30 yrs old. With everything being made in china now what is still a quality gauge? Does anyone know?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:05 am 
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MAS Racing wrote:
I know that I said my uncle uses that gauge but I don't know if it is still made quality. His is 30 yrs old. With everything being made in china now what is still a quality gauge? Does anyone know?


I didnt think of that. I did notice that an older, not sure just how old, Quicksilver 91-29287 gauge had the word China behind the lens. Another Quicksilver 91-29287 gauge had the word China on the side of the gauge but the box that it came in(looked like a new box and not NOS) read Made In the USA. At this piont I just need a gauge that is precise and close as possible to accurate that wont break the bank. Hoping the Quicksilver will do the trick. Ill post some side by side comparisons with my other two gauges. I did compare my gauges with my Craftsman air compressors gauge. I remember both were off so I calibrated them to my air compressors gauge. Not knowing if the air compressors gauge is accurate I decided to get this Quicksilver and go from there.

You might check into the Kawasaki part number 57001-221 compression gauge for accuracy.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:43 am 
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stix wrote:
MAS Racing wrote:
I know that I said my uncle uses that gauge but I don't know if it is still made quality. His is 30 yrs old. With everything being made in china now what is still a quality gauge? Does anyone know?


I didnt think of that. I did notice that an older, not sure just how old, Quicksilver 91-29287 gauge had the word China behind the lens. Another Quicksilver 91-29287 gauge had the word China on the side of the gauge but the box that it came in(looked like a new box and not NOS) read Made In the USA. At this piont I just need a gauge that is precise and close as possible to accurate that wont break the bank. Hoping the Quicksilver will do the trick. Ill post some side by side comparisons with my other two gauges. I did compare my gauges with my Craftsman air compressors gauge. I remember both were off so I calibrated them to my air compressors gauge. Not knowing if the air compressors gauge is accurate I decided to get this Quicksilver and go from there.

You might check into the Kawasaki part number 57001-221 compression gauge for accuracy.



Sad to say that made in the USA don't necessarily mean quality or accuracy look at afterthoughtmotorspurts products for example his junk might as well be engineered and made in china haha ... Also keep in mind that only craftsman "hand tools" are made in the USA or were that could have changed I have not verified this in the past year.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:39 pm 
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craftsman hand tools are made in china now


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:46 am 
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Location: Carson City, NV
Its funny. I lost my 1/4 drive deep dish 8mm socket. All of the sockets that I own are made in USA. When I went to our local sears my wife helped me pull about 14 off of the hanger and the very last one still said made in the USA. There was an actual difference in the way they looked and felt. The china was a POS. Oh and I just found out that Snap-on is now being manufactured over seas. What is this world coming to?

Stix I also would like to find a precision gauge that wont break the bank. I am waiting to hear what you think about the mercury quicksilver one.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:28 am 
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Corporate greed. Big guy upstairs signing the paychecks keeps telling his people to save more $'s after they've already sucked locpockets dry for years.That pressure to cut costs never stops, and the pressure eventually evaporates any care about quality and/or patriotism. The cost savings outweighs the cost to get it ashore, and there's essentially nothing else stopping them from moving across the pond. And the big wheel keeps on turning.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:03 am 
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DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Corporate greed. Big guy upstairs signing the paychecks keeps telling his people to save more $'s after they've already sucked locpockets dry for years.That pressure to cut costs never stops, and the pressure eventually evaporates any care about quality and/or patriotism. The cost savings outweighs the cost to get it ashore, and there's essentially nothing else stopping them from moving across the pond. And the big wheel keeps on turning.


Yup and anytime someone goes from made in the USA to made in china jobs are lost, people end up on food stamps, unemployment, welfare so were still paying you just 'redistributed the wealth'.

A import tax to cover the cost of unemployment, welfare and food stamps should be applied, all those corporate tax loopholes should be removed and a FLAT TAX applied to EVERYBODY all these right wing experts keep talking about 'level playing fields' then switch to a FLAT TAX so EVERYBODY PAYS, no more tax loopholes even the estimated 12 million illegals are paying, tourist that flock here for vacation are paying, remember when GE didnt pay any taxes on the BILLIONS in profits they made TAX PAYERS spend BILLIONS of tax dollars protecting GE interest world wide yet PAID NO TAXES. Read it here https://www.google.com/search?q=GE+didn ... =firefox-a my favorite http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/busin ... d=all&_r=0 I laugh every time I hear them right wing morons crying about the corporate tax rate corporations NEVER HAVE TO PAY whilst they complain about how the liberals are "brainwashing America" haha

IRS is trying to get up the asses of all the people in the USA hiding money in off shore accounts to avoid paying taxes but I suspect this is all about to just go away because their is a campaign by the right wing on the IRS for their abuses on the right wing, pressure is on long enough for lobbyist to do their job once all the cash has changed hands in DC the whole off shore account thing will go away and the focus will be back on the working man.

Interesting https://www.google.com/search?q=GE+didn ... S:official


I see Sears is having a sale on tool kits think I will go buy another one just to ensure I have enough made in the USA tools to last my lifetime I will pass along any extras to the grand kids so they can experience the made in the USA thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:06 pm 
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Hoser I hope you are lucky enough to find a kit still made in the USA. I was not able to the last time I looked here in our store.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:13 pm 
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MAS Racing wrote:
Hoser I hope you are lucky enough to find a kit still made in the USA. I was not able to the last time I looked here in our store.


How do you tell I opened up a 200 pc set they had on sale for 99 bux it does not say on the tools or the package...

I asked the store owner he said he was not sure but said "still has lifetime guarantee" I laughed and told him so does all them tools harbor freight sells for 1/2 the price of craftsman I will go buy from them if they are all coming from china, he had a dumber than normal look on his face when I left lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:28 pm 
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I thought I would post the results of my three different compression gauges. Im not advising that any of these gauges are completely accurate since I don't have a $2000(or whatever the cost) gauge calibration tool but I thought I would share.

The base lines for the readings are as follows....The Engine was cold. Ambient temps are 57F and my elevation is about 1200. The Engine I took compression readings from is a CR500 top end grafted to a FL400 bottom. The head is a Pro Design Cool Head with the 63cc dome. While I have not cc the squish and dome together and don't have the formula to figure CCR so Ill have to leave that out. Jug has been ported by ATVracing ,exhaust ports opened up enough that neither Stock nor Pro X piston will cover the ports. Full charge on the battery, 10 amp charger connected to battery for test, throttle wide open. May have forgot something, feel free to question.

No Name brand gauge read 161lbs
Matco CT-65 Gauge with hose reads 154
Quicksilver 91-29287 Gauge reads 169

The Quicksilver gauge reads Made In China and the box states Origin USA, WTF?? Anyhow the gauge is really small and fits the Pilot and CR500 head well. Since the Quicksilver gauge reads highest I will take my future measurements with it, not because it give me the "best" or highest reading but since it reads the highest of my 3 gauges and its below 170 I feel comfortable using pump gas. I will try to remember to post another reading with all gauges later in order to verify precision. Thanks for looking :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:24 am 
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Location: Carson City, NV
hoser wrote:
MAS Racing wrote:
Hoser I hope you are lucky enough to find a kit still made in the USA. I was not able to the last time I looked here in our store.


How do you tell I opened up a 200 pc set they had on sale for 99 bux it does not say on the tools or the package...

I asked the store owner he said he was not sure but said "still has lifetime guarantee" I laughed and told him so does all them tools harbor freight sells for 1/2 the price of craftsman I will go buy from them if they are all coming from china, he had a dumber than normal look on his face when I left lol.

Every single socket that was made in the USA was marked. If just says craftsman and the part number then it is guarantied china crap.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:52 am 
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MAS Racing wrote:
hoser wrote:
MAS Racing wrote:
Hoser I hope you are lucky enough to find a kit still made in the USA. I was not able to the last time I looked here in our store.


How do you tell I opened up a 200 pc set they had on sale for 99 bux it does not say on the tools or the package...

I asked the store owner he said he was not sure but said "still has lifetime guarantee" I laughed and told him so does all them tools harbor freight sells for 1/2 the price of craftsman I will go buy from them if they are all coming from china, he had a dumber than normal look on his face when I left lol.

Every single socket that was made in the USA was marked. If just says craftsman and the part number then it is guarantied china crap.


Ok thanks I will look next time, I assume this applies to all their hand tools, wrenches, screwdrivers etc. ?


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