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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:48 pm
Posts: 874
Hoser could you let me know what the cc's are on the head. I'm probably going to be picking up a cool head from another member and need to know if I should get the normal or high compression dome.
Thanks
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
First of all were all MAD scientists in or own way and I'm no geniuses other in my own mind however thank you for the kind words.. That's what this board is for to throw thing out there and get input and ideas I for one like input.

Shoubadaba make s a good point on the flywheel and acceleration. This is another piece of the puzzle. I do recall back a few years talking with an builder about spacing the cylinder and decking the head. He told me it did shift the rpm's up when using a power block. He also told me that a good pipe and a few other mods were required to take advantage of it. This may be one of those engines. If so why cool and look forward to the CSI.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:41 am 
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Rppjr wrote:
Here are pics of the two pipes. The rusty one hasn't been used for quite some time, it has a hole in it and the kid bought the second one, did some creative cutting and welding and came up with the setup it had on it when I picked it up from him. I would like to get the rusted or repaired and cleaned up to use and keep the other as a backup.


Generally speaking...Its been my experience that the pipes with a basic squared U shape header is considered a rev pipe and ones with extra little S turn out of the header is a torque pipe. That being said there is a lot more to it...ie taper, length, diameter, etc of the expansion chamber plays into the whole two stroke pulse wave effect which of course is also greatly effected by intake system and Engine design/ build stuff too.

I would have to guess the rusty one with the hole is a torque pipe and the hole is where they cut out the egt probe bung was welded in and someone decided that it's easier to weld an entire chunk onto an existing pipe rather than weld on another threaded bung. The other should be a rev pipe of some sort. Another thought, my big bore 400cc 350 engines were put into EEE n Briggs cars and also had right side exhaust pipes. Hmmmmmm

Gary


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Why do the pipes exit the opposite side you have no gas tank or was this Engine/pipes out of a stadium lite that use to have a 350 Engine those pipes came out the opposite side of a stock Pilot.

I have seen pipes blow out like that before the pipe was not installed properly and the vibration stressed out the metal, the Engine was trying to move and the pipe could not move so it was stressed in between that and a combination of the heat and heat cycles makes the metal brittle sooner or later it cracks and breaks or blows a chunk out, that stock Pilot pipe that came with the basket case Pilot I bought is all cracked in the same area and is about ready to blow out.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Location: Upland, Ca
they exited out that way because the radiator used to be mounted down low in the chassis to the left of the Engine and it made working on the clutch that much easier.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Location: Upland, Ca
see how easy it is.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Just checking in as USPS showed the last of the parts showed up. They may be under the last name of Bell as I don't have a Ebay account. Let me know if there is anything else needed. I am picking up a cool head this weekend and can ship that off but just need to know what dome I should go with.
Thanks
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:13 am 
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Rppjr wrote:
Hoser could you let me know what the cc's are on the head. I'm probably going to be picking up a cool head from another member and need to know if I should get the normal or high compression dome.
Thanks
Bob


I'd have to say just buy looking at the pics you need the high compression dome. I've studied this for quite a while now. And since nobody else has chimed in. It's probably best to get as much compression as possible out of it. That's just my 7 cents. That info was free by the way. :) carry on!

And besides, it's only money and ya can't take it with ya!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Bottom end assembled , new bearings, new seals, new gaskets,


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Location: Chicago
You can see where they removed weight from the flywheel and the back of the starter gear.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Head is 42cc's

ALL the Pilot engines I have worked on that had heads less than 45cc's only lasted a few hours run time at the most, majority of them came from ATV Racing and every one they claimed to be pump gas tuned engines.

This head is pretty much junk so much material has been machined off the stock casting its never going to be reliable (been their done that) its only use would be a paper weight or to machine the dome back to 52cc and put it on a stock Pilot that is never run hard in terrains like soft sand at the dunes, be ok on a trail machine.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Cleaned up the copper cylinder spacer they never removed the burrs around the edges after they machined out the spacer not sure how they ever expected it to seal like this guess this is why I found 4 different types of silicone sealer on the cylinder, spacer, block, yeah the past mechanic never even bothered to remove all traces of the sealers between rebuilds.

Installed the cylinder and the .092 thick copper spacer with NO gaskets on the cylinder or the spacer, looks like the piston is setting .004 to .006 above the top of the cylinder.

Found no signs that the stroke was changed on this crankshaft.

adnoh what other info you need?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Looks really good Hoser.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:46 pm 
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So would my best bet then be to run the cool head with stock cc dome or go with the higher compression dome? I'm open to either option, the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) probably won't see much more than dunes and an occasional trip to the track. The old owner did day he only ran 100 octane fuel through it.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Location: Chicago
I brought the piston to TDC (Top Dead Center) sealed the edges of the piston with Vaseline reinstalled all the head studs, installed a used OEM head gasket and a new Speedchaser cool head with a 49cc dome, leveled the Engine then poured in 5-30W Engine oil unil it reached the bottom of the spark plug hole it took 33cc of oil

This is still without the 2 cylinder gaskets the combustion chamber volume will increase after the 2 gaskets are installed.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Ok......ill bite. What tha heck does all that mean??
Can you explain for the other 90 percent of us that don't understand lol!
The only thing I got was that vasaline stops oil and using a speed chaser head with the piston that's in it will hold 33cc's of oil. (SMH)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:00 pm 
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that's the total combustion chamber volume as compared with just dome CCs. Its all a big formula thing including squish, the angle of the squish area, piston dome intrusion into the combustion area,etc. With all that info, Adnoh can calculate proper fuel octane for optimum burn rates, expected power ratings, etc. I really don't know how to do all the calculations but it does work.

Gary


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:19 am 
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Thanks buddy. That brings me up to speed. :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:23 am 
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Location: Chicago
Pro-Pilot-Popper wrote:
Ok......ill bite. What tha heck does all that mean??
Can you explain for the other 90 percent of us that don't understand lol!
The only thing I got was that vasaline stops oil and using a speed chaser head with the piston that's in it will hold 33cc's of oil. (SMH)


Some info here
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/Fuel-Squish-Detonation.htm

andoh has all the 2 stroke software to do the calculations tell us the compression ratio.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Oh my. I can see this will take a little work. If you can "H" get me the ex open in mm or inch from deck or degrees. Also get me the deck to intake open so I can factor in the blow down. A cord width number at the mean line will help with the rpm angle area. I would not run that Engine at this point from what I see. The squish is gona be way off with the speed head or the stock head. It will most likely have to much MSV and go into detonation at too low of an rpm. I can get you a close mm from deck to get the cord width for the approximate mean line. Please remind me of the new bore dia. With the speed head it will play a part in the calculation. Since you have squished the new head gasket also include that new compressed head gasket thickness number. From the pic the deck is positive which yields a negative number for the calculation. I will factor in the new base gasket numbers into the positive deck and see if it is still positive or negative.
On the flywheel measure the length of the timing weight or compare it to stock. If modified which end.

I must say this is one interesting combination. By the way "H" nice work.

What gas/fuel and octane does he plan on running?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Forgot to add look down the exhaust with the piston at TDC (Top Dead Center) and make sure its not short cycled with out the base gaskets.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Hello adnoh
The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is mine. The prior owner ran 100 octane fuel with a synthetic 2 stroke.
If possible I would like to run at most a 50/50 of 100 octane and 91. If that won't work
Then I will just go back to 100 octane. I am pretty much in the dark about what is being talked about lately so any and all recommendations are appreciated, especially on the cylinder head set up.
Thanks
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:54 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Rppjr, Thanks for the information, more the better as it all important. In order to be as accurate as one can there's a lot to account for. Please keep in mind I'm no professional in any way just a shade tree back yard hacker.

I have logged all the info I could from this post and started going through it. The first thing that smacked in the back of my head was the spacer/deck cut numbers and the picture of the piston above deck. I would say this is the very first thing I would need to get straight. My reading and comprehension skills are a little lacking to say the least so I will need "H" and other to review what I come up with and correct me.

When we talk about piton and deck height or piston deck height, what were looking at is the position of the piston at TDC (Top Dead Center) ( TOP Dead Center) or the piston at the top of the cylinder. In the case of the oddy and pilot the piston is crowned (not flat) the piston edge at the crown is what I'm looking at. In case of the ody and pilot stock this edge is below the cylinder deck (flat part of the cylinder at the top). From that edge to the heads flat or recessed edge is the squish clearance. The when you place the head gasket between the cylinder and head it will increase squish clearance. When the Piston Deck Height is above the cylinder or Positive it decreases the clearance. This bring us to the first question and the numbers in the PDF.

This also brings us to why I said, worried about squish clearance even with the speed head based on the picture. There is some other info however do not want to bring it into this yet.

Here is a PDF of what I noticed and questions for others to review and correct me before I move forward.
Hope I explained this good enough, if not ask.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Ok to simplify things (I hope) I added .040 shims under the cylinder to simulate both cylinder gaskets installed, resealed the top of the piston, reinstalled the stock head gasket and the head that came with this Engine and cc'd the combustion chamber again this time it was just about 34cc

Next I installed the degree wheel to find the port timing now the cylinder is raised up to the normal ride height.

Exhaust port opens at 82 degrees
Exhaust closes at 262 degrees
Transfer ports open at 118 degrees
Transfer ports close at 248 degrees


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
"H"
Thank you for taking time to get me the numbers. I first read and what? 1cc change, then I went back and read my notes. the first test was with a speed head and the second was with the bad stock head.

For those following I will explain a little If one was to add a .040 spacer to the base it raises the cylinder increasing volume.

So I take the .040 and convert to mm=1.016002032 then I take the 81.5mm bore and get a volume # of 5.300292cc's.
You can see how I went, What. If we go back and read( thank goodness for notes) speed head at 49cc dome and stock at 43. 49-42=7cc diff and then we take the 7-5.300292 and got 1.699708 cc,s. See why I feel better now.

If we applied the speed head to equation with the new base .040 ( for gaskets) we would be at what cc's?

Board members!

Any body wanta take a shoot at any of the other numbers?

How about piston dome volume
How about port duration
How about a CR

Read through the post for hints like: used stock head gasket.
Anyone want to take a shot at the gasket volume or possible squish clearance.
How about corrected CYLINDER swept volume.
How about a close corrected add number for primary compression.

I'll enter the number and see what I come up with.


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