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 Post subject: Porting
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
http://www.racelogic.com/

reading this and did not know if anone has any experience with them?


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
I have seen them before don't know anything about them good or bad, if their templets are accurate they could be useful in the right hands problem is everything they don't show like entrance and exit angles, roof and floor angles tapers, hooks etc.

Try to google them in the wild see what comes up?


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
I did and they seem to be trusted..
A guy on you tube gives a pretty good overview of the product here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZHOP3Tk6UE

I like the idea


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:47 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
I Ordered a set for the 580... I will post the updates as appropriate....
I know I have issues.. The Pilot does not need anymore power but ...


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
go oddy wrote:
I Ordered a set for the 580... I will post the updates as appropriate....
I know I have issues.. The Pilot does not need anymore power but ...


Cool cant wait to see it would like to read the directions, how much are they ?

I assume they do the math (you seen adnoh do it here on this site) then use the computer and one of them magnet cutter things to cut out all the templets.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
hoser wrote:
go oddy wrote:
I Ordered a set for the 580... I will post the updates as appropriate....
I know I have issues.. The Pilot does not need anymore power but ...


Cool cant wait to see it would like to read the directions, how much are they ?

I assume they do the math (you seen adnoh do it here on this site) then use the computer and one of them magnet cutter things to cut out all the templets.

70 bucks w shipping...
Yes I assume math was done??? I need to have a close look before I start cutting


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
go oddy wrote:
hoser wrote:
go oddy wrote:
I Ordered a set for the 580... I will post the updates as appropriate....
I know I have issues.. The Pilot does not need anymore power but ...


Cool cant wait to see it would like to read the directions, how much are they ?

I assume they do the math (you seen adnoh do it here on this site) then use the computer and one of them magnet cutter things to cut out all the templets.

70 bucks w shipping...
Yes I assume math was done??? I need to have a close look before I start cutting


Once you get it you can post up what your going to do also maybe post it on the SkiDoo message board and see what they think, once you mark it out you will know your raising the exahsut 1mm making it 3mm wider what ever it is then pass that info along see what they think I am sure their is someone that has modified them cylinders before that can give feedback, also pe prepared to take a beating by the guys that spent a 1000 bux sending their top end out to a "professional" Engine building shop and had theirs polished ported blessed by the ROTAX gods bla bla bla they will have a 100 reasons why you should not do it, ignore them get all the info you can work from their.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
hoser wrote:
go oddy wrote:
hoser wrote:
go oddy wrote:
I Ordered a set for the 580... I will post the updates as appropriate....
I know I have issues.. The Pilot does not need anymore power but ...


Cool cant wait to see it would like to read the directions, how much are they ?

I assume they do the math (you seen adnoh do it here on this site) then use the computer and one of them magnet cutter things to cut out all the templets.

70 bucks w shipping...
Yes I assume math was done??? I need to have a close look before I start cutting


Once you get it you can post up what your going to do also maybe post it on the SkiDoo message board and see what they think, once you mark it out you will know your raising the exahsut 1mm making it 3mm wider what ever it is then pass that info along see what they think I am sure their is someone that has modified them cylinders before that can give feedback, also pe prepared to take a beating by the guys that spent a 1000 bux sending their top end out to a "professional" Engine building shop and had theirs polished ported blessed by the ROTAX gods bla bla bla they will have a 100 reasons why you should not do it, ignore them get all the info you can work from their.



The nice thing is I have an extra set of 582 cylinders std bore on the shelf..
I have never fallen for the peer pressure thing regarding building or trying something new..
but I did with the 80s Nike hi tops with the thick laces that went straight across and you heard the heel slap the floor with each step because they were so loose :shock:
I hope they come in this week so I can do some work and toast KingKX the next time we go out with his twin 600 :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Received the two porting outlines... One for the exhaust
and one for the intake/boost port I believe it is called.?.?
It has me cutting the intake side of the cylinder where the liner
meets the cases ... And you end up with two ears left with a center cutout...
The exhaust calls for a wider with smidgen lower corner involvement with precaution not to
cut on top of exhaust port...
Will post pictures soon ...


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
magnets


Attachments:
exhaust port1.jpg
exhaust port1.jpg [ 53.35 KiB | Viewed 2583 times ]
exhaust2.jpg
exhaust2.jpg [ 58.41 KiB | Viewed 2583 times ]
intake1.jpg
intake1.jpg [ 48.85 KiB | Viewed 2583 times ]
intake2.jpg
intake2.jpg [ 51.1 KiB | Viewed 2583 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
some changes... rough stuff yet...
As I mentioned I have some extra cylinders as backup...


Attachments:
583 intake pre cut.jpg
583 intake pre cut.jpg [ 60.07 KiB | Viewed 2582 times ]
583 intake cut.jpg
583 intake cut.jpg [ 57.99 KiB | Viewed 2582 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
go oddy wrote:
Received the two porting outlines... One for the exhaust
and one for the intake/boost port I believe it is called.?.?
It has me cutting the intake side of the cylinder where the liner
meets the cases ... And you end up with two ears left with a center cutout...
The exhaust calls for a wider with smidgen lower corner involvement with precaution not to
cut on top of exhaust port...
Will post pictures soon ...



How much wider does it make the exhaust port?

Wider at the bottom is to take advantage of the return pulse wave when your on the pipe, just think if you could mechanically have the piston pause for a tenth of a second or so (made up time) or dwell just a little after bottom dead center (after you have used up the power stroke made by combustion) more cylinder filling and a bigger stuff as the piston closes the exhaust port :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
I can't believe my porting makes it possible for my pistons to pause...
I'm so excited about this... More time for cylinder filling... I will measure and post regarding the exhaust port change...
My final challenge and desire is to have a custom pipe made and get it on a dyno (I have one available locally for ATVs ) and get everything set without guessing and seat o the pants feeling









Could not resist posting the piston pause comment.... :-)

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I bet he meant pause.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
adnoh wrote:
I bet he meant pause.


:-)
I was just being a turd with the idea of a piston stopping for increased time because of a port job.. I know it doesn't and H knows it doesn't and so does everyone else on the board know... I understand the point of the reference for certain...
And adnoh I'm sure you are correct... :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
Porting would have nothing to do with the piston pausing it would be a mechanical feature added between the crank and the piston to allow for the pause, piston stops 2 times per crankshaft revolution crank continues to turn all the time


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:35 am
Posts: 2010
Location: Ottawa, IL
Wider at the bottom is to take advantage of the return pulse wave when your on the pipe, just think if you could mechanically have the piston pause for a tenth of a second or so (made up time) or dwell just a little after bottom dead center (after you have used up the power stroke made by combustion) more cylinder filling and a bigger stuff as the piston closes the exhaust port :-)[/quote]

Would raising the exhaust port cause this same effect? Wouldn't it allow more time for the cylinder to fill the higher you take it? What are the negatives of this? If you take it too high?


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Fatcat wrote:
Wider at the bottom is to take advantage of the return pulse wave when your on the pipe, just think if you could mechanically have the piston pause for a tenth of a second or so (made up time) or dwell just a little after bottom dead center (after you have used up the power stroke made by combustion) more cylinder filling and a bigger stuff as the piston closes the exhaust port :-)


Would raising the exhaust port cause this same effect? Wouldn't it allow more time for the cylinder to fill the higher you take it? What are the negatives of this? If you take it too high?[/quote]

It would change the effective stroke of the Engine.. Loose bottom end power for starters...
This is my understanding...


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
hoser wrote:
Porting would have nothing to do with the piston pausing it would be a mechanical feature added between the crank and the piston to allow for the pause, piston stops 2 times per crankshaft revolution crank continues to turn all the time


Your are wrong it increased my pause by 2 sec... I had to put larger jets and air cleaners on just to get the cylinders full .... :shock:
All joking aside the mild cutting/grinding that I did is noticeable ....


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
You guys crack me up. Good thing thisis the General BS section. As far as taking it higher it a yes and no. As you raise it it will change the AAML line to which the mm squared is taken for anglearea at T. By taking it higher IF required to increase blown down degree again can be achieved but to high and it will be worse than before. There is some quide lines for blown down related to rest of the porting. A lot depends on where you want to be. For starters you need to determen if there is a need to start the exhaust process sooner and understand the effects of doing so. You can oops here for sure. AS a general quide raiseing the exhaust wil raise the rpm of the power band if you get the rest correct. An example of oops would be raise the port which raises the AAML and not widen that part of the port to not only maintain the correct mm2 but increase itfor the now hiogher rpm to which T is shorter. This is to say the port open in time is less from the higher rpm and decreaesed AAML port area in mm2 and you just rut rued. This would bad if you were running a stock clutch over a one that engaged higher in rpm If you clutch enguages at 4500 or above you would not need set your site on an rpm lower and shift you angle area for the new enguagment rpm or your leaving power on the table. So shift the power curve up starting at 4500or 5000 or even a little higher. If your running your clutch at 7800 than taget that range of 5000 to 7800 and get the angle area for that T. You do this by altering the porting to achieve this result. Even after all the porting if the pipe is not tuned for this there is side effects. Now factor in Compression ratios at that rpm and it will effect the squish velocitys which is a by product of teh new rpm and exhaust port height. Than if you pipe does reach temp and the stuffing effect is out of time the cylinder will start to bleed pressure and loose mixture strenght as a result. Think about this for a second, when we fiqure compression ratio we assume the cylinder is at atmopherioc. This is usally far from the thruth. If the pipe pulse is slow is could be in vacume state or if the the pipe is in tune and on time the cylinder will be in a pressure state before the port closes. This will take our border line CCR to a detonation state via quish velocity for pump gas. Back to to high on the port, pressure loss and charge loss upon closing. on the other side of the stroke if it iopen to soon before combustion is complete you loose power and since the blow down timing is too high you most likly cook the pistons edge right off. Then when the transfers do open they get sucked right out the pipe with out effectivly clearing the cylinder of the spent gases and that will hurt the next now weaker intake charge and it becomes a turd.

Yea I said turd like wet turd I glad this in the BS section. I think I'll pause here and get ready to go ride. No pun intended. Have fun hacking and allowing me to chime in.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:35 am
Posts: 2010
Location: Ottawa, IL
Adnoh, I'm going to have to read that about 10 times for it to sink in. I just saw a case of the edge of the piston melting off. It was on a Sea Doo 787 of my brothers. Detonation caused this? I bet he wasn't using premium fuel, I'll tell him to do that. He put a whole used cylinder/piston combo and he said it's running good now.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
adnoh wrote:
You guys crack me up. Good thing thisis the General BS section. As far as taking it higher it a yes and no. As you raise it it will change the AAML line to which the mm squared is taken for anglearea at T. By taking it higher IF required to increase blown down degree again can be achieved but to high and it will be worse than before. There is some quide lines for blown down related to rest of the porting. A lot depends on where you want to be. For starters you need to determen if there is a need to start the exhaust process sooner and understand the effects of doing so. You can oops here for sure. AS a general quide raiseing the exhaust wil raise the rpm of the power band if you get the rest correct. An example of oops would be raise the port which raises the AAML and not widen that part of the port to not only maintain the correct mm2 but increase itfor the now hiogher rpm to which T is shorter. This is to say the port open in time is less from the higher rpm and decreaesed AAML port area in mm2 and you just rut rued. This would bad if you were running a stock clutch over a one that engaged higher in rpm If you clutch enguages at 4500 or above you would not need set your site on an rpm lower and shift you angle area for the new enguagment rpm or your leaving power on the table. So shift the power curve up starting at 4500or 5000 or even a little higher. If your running your clutch at 7800 than taget that range of 5000 to 7800 and get the angle area for that T. You do this by altering the porting to achieve this result. Even after all the porting if the pipe is not tuned for this there is side effects. Now factor in Compression ratios at that rpm and it will effect the squish velocitys which is a by product of teh new rpm and exhaust port height. Than if you pipe does reach temp and the stuffing effect is out of time the cylinder will start to bleed pressure and loose mixture strenght as a result. Think about this for a second, when we fiqure compression ratio we assume the cylinder is at atmopherioc. This is usally far from the thruth. If the pipe pulse is slow is could be in vacume state or if the the pipe is in tune and on time the cylinder will be in a pressure state before the port closes. This will take our border line CCR to a detonation state via quish velocity for pump gas. Back to to high on the port, pressure loss and charge loss upon closing. on the other side of the stroke if it iopen to soon before combustion is complete you loose power and since the blow down timing is too high you most likly cook the pistons edge right off. Then when the transfers do open they get sucked right out the pipe with out effectivly clearing the cylinder of the spent gases and that will hurt the next now weaker intake charge and it becomes a turd.

Yea I said turd like wet turd I glad this in the BS section. I think I'll pause here and get ready to go ride. No pun intended. Have fun hacking and allowing me to chime in.


Ya what he said!
Today I ported my pipe by drilling eight 1/4 inch holes in the "fat" part of pipe..
It is important not to drill seven as that is not enough and not nine as that would be too much....
Next I'm going to tear the ends off my air filters as the current ends get all dirty and the air just cannot flow through them as well...
"the above written words were derived from foolishness and should only be replicated by those trained in the art of foolery and destructive unhelpful behavior"
Regards


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Nice!

I went ridding yesterday and came up with some new ideas. Now if I only could put them into words. To many colds one I think. I better go back and do some more to see if it makes since.


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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I pulled a paragraph from a Gorden Jennings article that may apply to your work and why they did what they did. It's kinda related.


Attachments:
Resize of Gorder Jennings.JPG
Resize of Gorder Jennings.JPG [ 73.54 KiB | Viewed 2435 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Porting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
WARNING, WARNING,WARNING: Take two asparin ( if the doctor allowes) before reading.

After you read this a few times it will make since why they altered the lower portion of the exhaust port and change in the intake/ transfer/boost port.

In the last paragraph it mentions not changing the angle area or in simplier terms the mean area of the port. I refer to this as AAML or the Angle Area Mean Line. The port mean area is taken from the port open in degrees in relation to the transfer open in degreee and thus a line extablished to which the millermeter squared number is taken in order to get the angle area number. What your most likly changing is below this line as not to upset that area above the line an not upset the ratio of angle area between the exhaust and intake thought it's rpm range.

Better stop there as not to give bla bla bla headaches after all this is in the BS section.

That gorden jenning is some very good read and take note of who he sites in his writtings.


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