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 Post subject: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 887
Hi guys, been a long time since I’ve been on.

I was asking my 2 youngest nephews what they wanted Santa to bring them this year and they are hoping he’s going to bring them a rhino. Well late Friday night I went and picked up this 2015 170 EFI. Has a crack in the front bumper, needed a headlight bulb, but other than that it had a new jug and piston put on at the dealership on 8/22/17. It looks and runs great. Was goofing around with it on Saturday afternoon trying to figure out the speed limiters for teaching them. Appears the 15-29mph limiter bolt on the gas pedal was cut off and removed. The efi models have a 7mph electronic limiter under the driver seat. Basically just a wire loop. Made one of those and had my wife take it for a test drive. Works fine. Took it for maybe a one minute ride and backed it into the garage. All good. Few minutes later I go to restart it and it won’t start and it doesn’t sound right when I crank it over. Pull the spark plug that feels like it was put on with an impact. Put my finger over the hole and it has no compression. Pull the valve cover off. (one bolt has the threads stripped on this as well) rocker arm for the intake valve has at least 1/4 of of slop in it. At that point I started pulling plastics so I could get in there to pull the head off of it. The flunky they had working on this thing at the dealership must have loved air tools. About half of the hardware on this thing is stripped out or cross threaded. I get it all stripped down and pulled the head. The valve seat fell out, bent the valve, and put some pretty good gouges in the head.

Got on partzilla to order all the parts and I can get everything but the valve seat. I guess my question is where can I buy a new valve seat if Polaris doesn’t sell them? Or should I just reuse the one that fell out. Has some scuffs on the back side but where the valve seals to it there is no damage. Also how do I prevent this prom happening again if I reuse the seat.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
I think u may need a head.
That valve seat is a very tight press fit and should not have fallen out no matter what. I don't think a new one will fair much better and would scare me every time I started it wondering if today is the day it will pop out again.
I think rather then heating the head they beat the seat in cold.
Personally I've never seen one fall out and I've caused all kinds of carnage to engines over the years.
I'm no expert by any measure just my opinion.

Nice Christmas gift by the way. (No humor intended )


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 887
FloridaEdd wrote:
I think u may need a head.
That valve seat is a very tight press fit and should not have fallen out no matter what. I don't think a new one will fair much better and would scare me every time I started it wondering if today is the day it will pop out again.
I think rather then heating the head they beat the seat in cold.
Personally I've never seen one fall out and I've caused all kinds of carnage to engines over the years.
I'm no expert by any measure just my opinion.

Nice Christmas gift by the way. (No humor intended )



I was thinking the same thing but ran into a friends dad at dinner that’s a really good mechanic and he told me he’d Reuse the head. He said he’s done it a few times and to figure out why it’s overheating. He suspects that’s why it needed rebuilt and probably led up to this. Just freeze the new seat and heat up the head. This was before I’m finding out I probably can’t buy a new seat.

A new head is $400. My goal is to stay under $3000. Already $2700 into it, have $275 in my partzilla shopping cart, and still need a valve seat.

I knew it would have some problems. I’ve done a lot of research on them just wasn’t expecting it so soon. The 170’s are really just a glorified Korean go kart. By going with the efi model I won’t have to deal with the notorious hard starting issues that the carbed models had. They also upgraded the swing arm that was known to fail on earlier models.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
"The flunky they had working on this thing at the dealership must have loved air tools"

You can thank the TV shows for that.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
My thinking is the seat will expand as well as the head so in theory the hotter it is the tighter it should be. It dId fall out when the enine cooled. . The head is aluminum and the seat hardened steel. The area the seat sits in is going to wear before the seat will.
My fear with it failing again is had it hung up on the other side of the valve it may have taken out ur piston and caused catastrophic damage.

Someone else may have a method I'm unaware of to fix it.
Belive me I understand budget constraints.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 887
FloridaEdd wrote:
My thinking is the seat will expand as well as the head so in theory the hotter it is the tighter it should be. It dId fall out when the enine cooled. . The head is aluminum and the seat hardened steel. The area the seat sits in is going to wear before the seat will.
My fear with it failing again is had it hung up on the other side of the valve it may have taken out ur piston and caused catastrophic damage.

Someone else may have a method I'm unaware of to fix it.
Belive me I understand budget constraints.


I agree the seat will expand along with the head. The aluminum head would expand faster than the seat. Maybe during her minute or less ride the head heated up and expanded but the seat didn’t expand yet? Who knows. Just got off the phone with the Polaris dealer. He said they don’t show a replacement valve seat and they want $492 for a new head. He says he’s never heard of this happening and mentioned I could try to stake the valve seat with a punch but he’s never done it to an atv Engine. Looking at YouTube video’s it’s something they do to lawn mower or go kart engines. Similar output to this thing. Any reason I shouldn’t give that a try?

I wonder if there’s some kind of permatex or something else I could put on it to increase the odds of it holding.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
I was thinking of dimpling the surrounding area to shrink the opening but I didn't know how that may effect the combustion chamber as in causing a hot spot and producing pre ignition.
The issue I have with being heat caused is its the intake valve. The exhaust valve is the one to overheat generaly


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
Stakeing the valve seat is ur best bet I think.
CO " Canadianoddysey " is the one who will have a,solution. Suprised he hasn't chimed in yet.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
FloridaEdd wrote:
Stakeing the valve seat is ur best bet I think.
CO " Canadianoddysey " is the one who will have a,solution. Suprised he hasn't chimed in yet.


I haven't chimed in yet because I just got outa bed a couple hrs ago LOL. It's west coast time here.

Anyways with regards to this issue above I see no easy solution here.
There is no way that seat should have fallen out in the first place. It tells me there was a factory issue. Either the seat is under sized or the head is over sized.
The question is how much interference fit is required ?? We have two different metals here and the expansion rates will be different. So how much is needed in this instance ?? In most cases with similar metals the interference fit is .001-.003 and .004-.005 is considered excessive and .006-.008 is considered extreme.
In my opinion dimpling the head may work, but after the valve slaps the hell out of it for a bit, any hold that it had will be gone. You would need to measure the head and the valve seat to see what the difference is. The problem is getting at the head with the caliper to measure it. Not sure if you can get your caliper in that angle. This is not a back yard hack n whack job. If you get it wrong you can cause catastrophic damage to that Engine. That's my issue with dimpling the head.
Solutions: 1) You could dimple the head but no guarantee on that. 2) Get a machine shop to make a new seat with a correct amount of interference fit out of stainless. But how much is required ?? Probably be expensive unless you have your own lathe. 3) Get a new head

On a side note here I have to say that I have never done a valve seat -- on anything. So I may be talking out of my azz. Also the "mechanic" that worked on that Engine with an impact gun and stripped a bunch of stuff, needs to be shot with his own poo. The problem is that we don't have or have very very few mechanics with a good skill set. The big companies don't want to train anyone and the younger people don't want to get dirty anymore. Why be a tradesman when you can be a truck driver and make the same money. No respect or compensation for real trades people anymore. There is no fn way a truck driver or machine operator should make as much money as a tradesman. Every trade guy I know has now said F it, if the boss opens his yap I'm gone. Also some of these "tradesmen" have dubious skill sets. I wouldn't hire them to fix my wheel barrow. It's bad out there.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2865
Location: East Peoria IL
How long ago was the repair made by the dealer? Is there a warranty? I would talk to the guy you bought it from. Might get lucky, but I doubt it.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
Well good morning sunshine.
I would put what u have in a box and go to a machine shop and hope u find a friendly ear. Cry poverty,explain u bought it as a gift,cry if u have to but u might just find someone willing to help.
That's where I would start , at least they can tell u if there is a hope or not. May save u a bunch of headache.

Most people are good and will take the opportunity to help a guy out. Some won't want to be bothered but u got to try.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 887
rmesser wrote:
How long ago was the repair made by the dealer? Is there a warranty? I would talk to the guy you bought it from. Might get lucky, but I doubt it.


Topend rebuild was done on 10/22/17. Didn’t see anything about a warranty on the paperwork and they didn’t nor any head work besides valve adjustment during assembly so I’m almost sure they won’t take the hit on it.

Haven’t called the previous owner. He had it rebuilt to sell it since his daughters outgrew it. He seemed like a straight up guy. I know if I sold it and this happened I wouldn’t stand behind it so I’m not going to ask someone else to. No way he could’ve known it was going to happen. It ran and sounded great.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 887
canadian oddy wrote:
FloridaEdd wrote:
Stakeing the valve seat is ur best bet I think.
CO " Canadianoddysey " is the one who will have a,solution. Suprised he hasn't chimed in yet.


I haven't chimed in yet because I just got outa bed a couple hrs ago LOL. It's west coast time here.

Anyways with regards to this issue above I see no easy solution here.
There is no way that seat should have fallen out in the first place. It tells me there was a factory issue. Either the seat is under sized or the head is over sized.
The question is how much interference fit is required ?? We have two different metals here and the expansion rates will be different. So how much is needed in this instance ?? In most cases with similar metals the interference fit is .001-.003 and .004-.005 is considered excessive and .006-.008 is considered extreme.
In my opinion dimpling the head may work, but after the valve slaps the hell out of it for a bit, any hold that it had will be gone. You would need to measure the head and the valve seat to see what the difference is. The problem is getting at the head with the caliper to measure it. Not sure if you can get your caliper in that angle. This is not a back yard hack n whack job. If you get it wrong you can cause catastrophic damage to that Engine. That's my issue with dimpling the head.
Solutions: 1) You could dimple the head but no guarantee on that. 2) Get a machine shop to make a new seat with a correct amount of interference fit out of stainless. But how much is required ?? Probably be expensive unless you have your own lathe. 3) Get a new head

On a side note here I have to say that I have never done a valve seat -- on anything. So I may be talking out of my azz. Also the "mechanic" that worked on that Engine with an impact gun and stripped a bunch of stuff, needs to be shot with his own poo. The problem is that we don't have or have very very few mechanics with a good skill set. The big companies don't want to train anyone and the younger people don't want to get dirty anymore. Why be a tradesman when you can be a truck driver and make the same money. No respect or compensation for real trades people anymore. There is no fn way a truck driver or machine operator should make as much money as a tradesman. Every trade guy I know has now said F it, if the boss opens his yap I'm gone. Also some of these "tradesmen" have dubious skill sets. I wouldn't hire them to fix my wheel barrow. It's bad out there.


Hey I resemble those truck driver remarks. Lol

Good point on the tolerances that it needs. Pretty much leaves me with buy a $400 head or spend $100, fix it myself, and roll the dice on breaking a piston and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Have to think about that. I’m not much on gambling. As you can see luck doesn’t usually come my way.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
atcdude123 wrote:
Hey I resemble those truck driver remarks. Lol

Good point on the tolerances that it needs. Pretty much leaves me with buy a $400 head or spend $100, fix it myself, and roll the dice on breaking a piston and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Have to think about that. I’m not much on gambling. As you can see luck doesn’t usually come my way.


Maybe someone with more skill on valves can chime in but that's my opinions.

As for the truck driver comments -- LOL
A friend of mine (a millwright retired) knows one of the big shots at a real big company in the interior. He said his buddy told him they needed several millwrights so they interviewed 23 candidates. ONE past the pee test. This is the kind of garbage out there right now. I would not want to be an employer right now. The good guys have given up and are close to retirement and everyone else is a loser. As for the companies, they have no one to blame but themselves. Many "management" have no skills. They only got the job because they were banging the managers daughter and daddy wanted to make sure baby got a white collar hubby. That's a fact. Seen it actually happen at a place I worked at one time. The management treats the skilled worker like crap a lot of the time and don't pay them much more than a flunky. In the mill I worked at when I was a kid, a machine operator with a grading ticket and a first aid ticket made as much as a real tradesman. That's a joke. It's only lately (last ten yrs) that I noticed an attitude change in many of the management, but it's to late, and the pay inequity is still wrong. Many management give themselves huge bonus at end of year. For what ?? This is blatant theft of shareholder dividends in my opinion. They are already paid, like I am to do the job.
We are doomed.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Just for fun here try to measure the head where the seat goes with a dial caliper. If you can get in there. Right that number down. Then measure the valve seat. Right that number down.
If they are the same your ded. If you only have .001 or .002 interference fit your ded. I say that because of the different metals. The aluminum will expand faster. That's just my opinion.
If you can't get in there with the caliper then I would file a piece of metal that fits nice and snug in the head and measure that.
The proper way would be to use an inside mic but I doubt anyone that has one would let you borrow it.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Posts: 887
I decided to roll the dice and see if it’s salvagable. Ordered the parts yesterday. It’ll be my little science experiment.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I found this info online and I take it at face value. Those numbers seem correct to me.

Interference?
The recommended amount of interference between the valve seat insert and head may vary depending on the size of the insert, the type of insert (alloy or powder metal) and type of head (cast iron or aluminum). The best advice is to use the amount of interference recommended by the OEM Engine manufacturer.
Too much interference runs the risk of cracking the head while too little interference increases the risk of the seat coming loose or falling out. One of the leading causes of seats coming loose, however, is not the amount of interference between the seat and head but elevated operating temperatures. Anything that causes the exhaust valve to run hot may also cause the seat to loosen.

Philip Carrasco at Tucker says seats may require anywhere from .002˝ to .010˝ of interference depending on the application and the roughness of the surface in the counterbore. For aluminum heads, an interference fit of .005˝ to .007 ˝ is commonly used. For cast iron heads, .003˝ to .005˝ is about right.

Martin Wells’ Roger Klump says he recommends an interference fit of .005˝ to .006˝ for everything, aluminum and cast iron.

I got this info from here and its near the bottom of the page: http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/Valv ... ation.html


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
There is a very interesting comment made there: One of the leading causes of seats coming loose, however, is not the amount of interference between the seat and head but elevated operating temperatures. Anything that causes the exhaust valve to run hot may also cause the seat to loosen.

Lesson for all to learn here in my opinion.
I didn't know until I just read it a few minutes ago. My first reaction when someone says they blew a head gasket is that they may have a warped head now. Well apparently it can be a lot more serious. Never even occurred to me.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:50 pm 
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canadian oddy wrote:
There is a very interesting comment made there: One of the leading causes of seats coming loose, however, is not the amount of interference between the seat and head but elevated operating temperatures. Anything that causes the exhaust valve to run hot may also cause the seat to loosen.

Lesson for all to learn here in my opinion.
I didn't know until I just read it a few minutes ago. My first reaction when someone says they blew a head gasket is that they may have a warped head now. Well apparently it can be a lot more serious. Never even occurred to me.



That was my friends dads first response. He said it must have been really hot for the intake seat to fall out. He said the exhaust usually drops first. I’ll be going over the cooling system when I work on it again. Air cooled so not much to go wrong.

Also bought a used set of taillights out of an 05 sportsman for it. Getting the light sockets, plugs ins, and about 5” of wire for each one. Not many people want to cut up a wiring harness for you but this guy was willing. Going to do away with the cheesy power wheels looking stickers they have for taillights.

The clear sections were “work lights” on the sportsman. I’m going to wire them up as reverse lights. I’ll run them through a relay triggered by the reverse light on the dash. Having real taillights and reverse lights will be a good safety feature plus a tattle tail for anyone riding behind them.

Would like to do away with the speedometer sticker to and replace it with something functional. Spedhut has some GPS SPeedometers that would fit nicely.


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File comment: Not my machine but here is what the back end looks like originally. The picture makes the taillights look better than they are in person. They’re pathetic.
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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:33 am 
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Got the valve seat put in Wednesday afternoon. Left the valve seat in the freezer and heated up the head. Took a few good smacks but it went back in there. I think I should’ve taken it somewhere to have the valve ground. I spent at least 5hrs, probably 6, between Wednesday night and last night with the stupid little suction cup lapping tool to get it to seal up. Man that SUCKED. Tonight I’m going to replace the valve seals and stake the seat in place. Will hopefully get it put back together this weekend. Will depend how my Sunday trip goes. Going to buy a parts/fixer upper mini jet boat in Indiana.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
Next time remove the suction cup and slide it over a nut driver for a drill and use the drill on slow speed ,you need to check the contact ring frequently as u don't want to over do it.
I just lapped in four valves this way yesterday.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
This is what I use.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
FloridaEdd wrote:
This is what I use.


Great minds think alike :-) .
That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that.


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
Wont staking distort the seat= more lapping?

MMMMM...Jet boats!

I WILL build a Jet Stream jet boat someday!


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 Post subject: Re: RZR 170 question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
What's staking?


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