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 Post subject: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
I just got an FL250. The previous owner re-bore it to 300cc. I have no idea about two-strokes or engines in general, so I need help.
It just screams for awhile, fastest Fl250 I ever rode! It runs great but then after a bit when I hit the throttle it just dies.

Here are some more details:
1. It works fine after it has been sitting for awhile. Maybe the first 10mins or so are fantastic.
2. Then when I hit the gas and there is nothing. I'll restart it and then it gets sooner and sooner when it gets to the point where the throttle doesn't respond. If I sit with it idling sometimes it will work fine but then it does it again. It just gets worse after that.
3. I took the carburetor apart and it is perfectly clean. I also did every possible adjustment of the air and throttle screw. Same problem. It seems to run best with the idle screw way out, like 5-8 turns out. I thought it wasn't getting enough gas but I can't do anything with the carburetor to fix it.
4. There is oily smudge coming out where the exhaust attaches to the cylinder.
5. If I turn the idle up too high, the kill switch won't work.
6. The throttle cable seems loose. I can pull the cable up from where it enters the carburetor. Not sure what it is supposed to be like.

Not sure what else to look for. Can't do a compression test etc because I have no idea how to do it.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
1. It works fine after it has been sitting for awhile. Maybe the first 10mins or so are fantastic.

Their is a point when the Engine runs right its a intermittent problem these can be a pain to figure out

Sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem to me I come to this conclusion after sifting through all your comments, here is my thoughts.

You say it runs better when the Engine is cold, when the Engine is hot and you have a fuel starvation problem they Engine will run hot and any carbon inside will make the Engine continue to run even with the ignition switch turned off.

5. If I turn the idle up too high, the kill switch won't work.

Next time that happens turn on the choke see if Engine will die, what turning on the choke will do is add more gas and cool the combustion chamber to the point were the air/fuel will not self ignite.

If it was mine I would go through the entire fuel system from the gas cap to the car ensure the inside of the whole system is clean and free flowing, make sure all the fuel lines are routed right, make sure the pulse tube for the fuel pump is still hooked up, make sure the bypass valve is installed correctly and working right.

If you see any fuel dripping out the lines on the carb then their is a problem with the fuel level or the float valve sealing.

How are the Engine mounts if they are all broke they can allow the Engine to shake more than normal this can upset the float in the carb, shake up a water bottle look at the bubbles you created same thing inside a carb you can actually make gas foam in a carb from excess vibration, if this is a bot bore Engine it probably vibrates more than stock, the extra HP and torque are probably stressing out the old dry rot rubber Engine mounts.

A exhaust leak can suck air into the Engine and cause it to run lean this needs fixed ASAP

Take a bunch of detail pictures of your machine and post so we can see what were working with many of these machines has been greatly molested over the years by previous owners.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Take a look at this animation this is how a 2 stroke Engine works.

Image

See how the exhaust pipe sucks the fresh air/fuel mixture (GREEN) out of the cylinder and into the pipe then just about the time piston is going to close the exhaust port and allow the mixture to be compressed for ignition the returning pulse wave forces the mixture (GREEN) back into the cylinder..... this is why you don't want a air leak at your exhaust manifold.

Your best bet is to remove the exhaust pipe and take some pics so we can see what were dealing with at the very least you will need to clean everything up perfectly clean and apply some high temp silicone then reassemble and allow to fully cure this usually seals up most 2 stroke engines if all parts are in good condition including all the mounts that support the pipe and Engine if the mounts are not right as you ride the flexing of the Engine or pipe will just rip or break the seal of the silicone sealer.

Also see http://www.pilotodyssey.com/Siliconesealer.htm

Exhaust leak
Sealing a exhaust


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:46 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Thanks so much for your help guys.
The guy welded the exhaust on instead of bolting it so I had to get the Engine off.

All the bolts and mounts are in fantastic shape though. The thing is extremely clean, I can say that much.
Here are some pictures:


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
The exhaust pipe itself is clean inside and as you can see the smudge doesn't seem to be concentrated around the exhaust port.
So its got to be at some gasket I guess. I'll clean it up. I hope it isn't a crack somewhere!


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
One more. Here is with everything apart:
At least the cylinder head is not cracked. It looks like the cylinder gasket could be replaced.
Is there supposed to be a ring or something on that exhaust flange where there is a ring like impression? I couldn't find anything is the Honda parts list. Maybe I will just wrap with muffler tape when I put it back together.
Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:47 pm
Posts: 156
why did you have to cut the exhaust from the manifold ? Looks to me if you would have taken the other two bolts off of the exhaust manifold the whole exhaust would have came off ?


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
I didn't cut anything. I just pulled the entire cylinder from the exhaust and that is what I found.
How is it supposed to look? Maybe that is the problem.
The exhaust would not come off because for some reason it was not only bolted but welded to the frame.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
tweaked!! wrote:
One more. Here is with everything apart:
At least the cylinder head is not cracked. It looks like the cylinder gasket could be replaced.
Is there supposed to be a ring or something on that exhaust flange where there is a ring like impression? I couldn't find anything is the Honda parts list. Maybe I will just wrap with muffler tape when I put it back together.
Thanks again.


You need to bend the bend parts of the exhaust flange back out so they are straight they are blocking exhaust flow, their is a metal ring that goes in the groove of the exhaust manifold.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Ok I see. The ring is:
RING, EX. PIPE 18358-358-000

In the parts diagram (http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_se ... veh=125196) next to that ring is:
GASKET, EX. PIPE 18352-358-000

Where does that gasket fit?


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: San Diego
tweaked!! wrote:
Ok I see. The ring is:
RING, EX. PIPE 18358-358-000

In the parts diagram (http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_se ... veh=125196" .".." .".." .".." ."..) next to that ring is:
GASKET, EX. PIPE 18352-358-000

Where does that gasket fit?


18358 is the metal ring that fits in the groove.

18352 is the fiber gasket that sits on the outer lip of the exhaust manifold.

You can see the curved recess in a properly shaped exhaust manifold.

Parts pics attached.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Thanks for posting that. You guys are great.
I had neither of those and just ordered them from a local dealer.
I guess the fiber gasket just slides onto the end of that manifold?


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
I will replace the bottom cylinder gasket, the metal exhaust flange gasket and these two gaskets and bend the flange and see if all that fixes my problem.

I also took the fuel pump apart and some pf the parts were in the wrong order compared to the oem blow up diagram. I reassembled according to those diagrams.
The previous owner ripped everything apart to clean it but it looks like he overlooked a few things when he put it back together!


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: San Diego
tweaked!! wrote:
I guess the fiber gasket just slides onto the end of that manifold?


Yeah, you can even stick it there with a little high temp silicone so it doesn't slip off during reassembly.

If your Engine is out of tune and vibrates bad the extra movement may allow the fiber gasket to be blown into the exhaust or sucked into the Engine and ingested, very common for them to 'disappear' between rebuilds.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Ody_Stable wrote:
tweaked!! wrote:
I guess the fiber gasket just slides onto the end of that manifold?


Yeah, you can even stick it there with a little high temp silicone so it doesn't slip off during reassembly.

If your Engine is out of tune and vibrates bad the extra movement may allow the fiber gasket to be blown into the exhaust or sucked into the Engine and ingested, very common for them to 'disappear' between rebuilds.


Yup that is why I never use them on any of my Engine builds or assembles I have yet to find one when I removed the exhaust on a Engine that had one installed including my 83 ATC250R that I bought new, it was gone the first time I removed the pipe to paint.

Silicone sealer is the ticket.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Ok thanks, I'll get some high temp. silicone.
Before I put this all back together, just wanted to check on proper plumbing. Here is my carburetor. The line on top is the line in from the fuel pump. The brass outlet across from it had nothing attached to it. The other two hoses went nowhere. Is that right?
Sorry for being such a noob.


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ody carb.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
This help? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1722&view=next

Forget the layout on the FL250 carb but most all carbs have 2 vents and a over flow and a fuel inlet, the vents are usually the 2 higest on the carb and one on each side of the carb the over flow is usually on the bottom on the float bowl all should have hoses so fuel cant leak out and get on belt and clutches.

Odystable?
Other 250 gurus?


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:46 am 
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:14 am
Posts: 214
will look at mine tomorrow but i think that brass fitting is an overflow, put a hose on and run it out with the others


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Well it was the fuel pump. Got another one off a snowmobile and it works great!
Put it all back together with the silicone as the exhaust gasket and no more smudge either.
Fingers crossed it will last.
Thanks again for all your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: San Diego
tweaked!! wrote:
Well it was the fuel pump. Got another one off a snowmobile and it works great!
Put it all back together with the silicone as the exhaust gasket and no more smudge either.
Fingers crossed it will last.
Thanks again for all your help.


I hope you let the silicone setup for a good 24 hours before starting it, otherwise you will just blow it out as if it wasn't even there.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: San Diego
hoser wrote:
This help? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1722&view=next" ."..

Forget the layout on the FL250 carb but most all carbs have 2 vents and a over flow and a fuel inlet, the vents are usually the 2 higest on the carb and one on each side of the carb the over flow is usually on the bottom on the float bowl all should have hoses so fuel cant leak out and get on belt and clutches.

Odystable?
Other 250 gurus?


Yup, that's it.

The vent and over hoses should all be long enough to stuff into the slot in the Engine cases right next to the Engine serial number, that's what the slot was designed for.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Worked great for awhile.
Now there is a terrible screechy sound whenever I pull to start. There is a lot of rattling at low rpms. It won't keep running either.
This is so fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
tweaked!! wrote:
Worked great for awhile.
Now there is a terrible screechy sound whenever I pull to start. There is a lot of rattling at low rpms. It won't keep running either.
This is so fun.



Something in the recoil going bad or is the sound coming from the clutch side?


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:59 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 am
Posts: 24
Not sure, its hard to tell. It began when it was stalling out and I was pulling it like crazy to try and get it going. Now its much worse.
On one hand, the recoil sometimes doesn't go back smoothly on the other hand on the last start up the clutch wouldn't engage either though.


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 Post subject: Re: Help FL250 dying!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:27 am 
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Location: Chicago
tweaked!! wrote:
Not sure, its hard to tell. It began when it was stalling out and I was pulling it like crazy to try and get it going. Now its much worse.
On one hand, the recoil sometimes doesn't go back smoothly on the other hand on the last start up the clutch wouldn't engage either though.



Pull the recoil inspect.


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