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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Well after a few rips around the fields and yard the other day, some slow-mo joy-rides around the yard with my 4 & 7 yr old nieces yesterday, and some wide open laps around the field today...the sled was starting to act funny. These past couple days have been my inaugural riding with this sled, as this is the first snow. Bought this initially for its Engine for a buggy, but decided to test out the powerplant since we've got 5-7" snow laid.

Initial Symptoms:
#1. I'd use the brake...and the Engine would want to die.
#2. Try to start it...and the gearbox would engage = belt has tension
#3. Did not want to start due to the tension on the belt (starter was driving the track), and killed the battery trying.
#4. Still pushing out 165-169psi compression in both cylinders.
#5. Clutches were lubed on day #1 with some dry-moly lube.

I opened the hood and checked the driven clutch. Looked good. Looked at the primary clutch and the belt was juuuuust barely catching, as if the clutch had not fully disengaged. So my initial diagnosis was a stuck primary clutch. Pulled the battery and put it on the 10A/30min quick-charger.

Took the plug wires off to get to the plugs. Noticed the left bank was running a BR8ES and right a BR9ES. Not cool. Embarassed I never noticed it. Left bank was dry and look a tad lean. Right bank looked normal and slightly wet. Also noticed some carbon build-up on the left bank exterior near the clutch. Installed two new plugs, and freshly charged battery. Managed to get the sled started and drove it back into the shop. Parked it.

With the Engine still warm, ignition off, and airbox off, I rotated the primary clutch around by hand to see the belt engagement. Sure enough, the primary was about 1mm away from disengaging the belt. As I was rotating the clutch around, a few puffs would come out of the carbs as some fuel was hitting the hot chambers. BUT THEN...I noticed a small puff out of the corner of the base gasket of the left bank jug. AIR LEAK! =(

At this point I was worried about a fried cylinder AND a stuck clutch. And I knew I was going to be pulling this Engine.

Four hours, 4 cups of coffee, and several episodes of Overhaulin' later, the Engine was out (single-handed-ly) and I was VERY VERY VERY surprised at how easy and straight-foward the Engine removal was despite having no shop manual to reference. Kudos to SkiDoo and Rotax! No stuck bolts. Everything came apart nice and looked clean for being 22 years old. Only weird thing was the jug base bolts seemed loose. It took very little effort with the 3/8" ratchet to loosed them. Not torqued? Not heat-cycled and re-torqued? Muffler box has some cracks on top, but very fixable. The left side airbox-to-carb boot is torn and poorly jerry-rigged with vinyl tape (sigh). Suspension bellows are tattered and letting snow into the Engine bay. Rotary intake is very clean and smooth.

Laid out all the parts and got the Engine on the bench.

I verified the failed base gasket on the left bank base. Gasket is toast. Both cylinders looked great and cross-hatching was still visible. Head chambers are clean and smooth. Pistons had only a couple marks that appear to be gasket or gasket sealer smudge marks. Left-side measured 2.726" P-OD @ 2.735" C-ID (.0045" WC). Right measured 2.725" P-OD and 2.735" C-ID (.005" WC). Upon inspecting the rings, I found a sticky lower ring on the right bank. Have yet to feeler-gage the ring grooves. Grooves need cleaned first since there is a bit of carbon in there.

Got the clutch bolt off with the assistance of some leverage, but couldn't find my clutch removal bolt. Bagged the Engine and called it a day.

Plans:
1. Order a new top-end seal kit w/ crank seals (ORDERED, $39)
2. Find a manual for this thing.
3. New piston/ring kit, 69.5mm @ 2.736" bore (ORDERED PAIR, $80)
4. Get clutch off and apart. Hoping its fix-able, or hope one of my extras fits it.

And while I'm waiting for parts...
5. Clean carbs while they're off
6. Weld a piece of sheet over the muffler cracks.
7. Clean up the exhaust and paint with high-temp ceramic paint.
8. Clean out all the muck at the bottom of the Engine bay.
9. See what I can make as a replacement for the suspension bellows (Don't want to buy new since this sled is intended to be an Engine donor for my Rotax buggy).
10. Bead blast the jugs and head exterior.


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File comment: Base gasket leak, left side
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File comment: Bad gasket...BAD GASKET!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
More pics....

"Oh what fun it is to ride, and then take it all aparr-art!" lol


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File comment: Sticky ring @ squiggly line
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Piston kits, gasket set, and clutch tools (puller and retainer clips) should be here Friday 1/4. =)

In the mean time, I'm hoping to get the Engine bay cleaned out and get the top-end clean-up underway. HOWEVER...it was 6'F on my way to work, and the barn t'mometer read 19'F. So, it's tough working out there very long. Still some un-melted snow on the sled, too. My 200,000btu propane barrel heater is not very effective (too much volume in a whole barn!). Need to get a blower-type salamander heater or else get part of the barn quarantined with some type of barrier for easier heating. I love all the space, but miss my 21x21 insulated and drywalled garage that took 5-min to heat to 65'F with that same heater!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Piston kits, gasket set, and clutch tools (puller and retainer clips) should be here Friday 1/4. =)

In the mean time, I'm hoping to get the Engine bay cleaned out and get the top-end clean-up underway. HOWEVER...it was 6'F on my way to work, and the barn t'mometer read 19'F. So, it's tough working out there very long. Still some un-melted snow on the sled, too. My 200,000btu propane barrel heater is not very effective (too much volume in a whole barn!). Need to get a blower-type salamander heater or else get part of the barn quarantined with some type of barrier for easier heating. I love all the space, but miss my 21x21 insulated and drywalled garage that took 5-min to heat to 65'F with that same heater!!



Hang up some plastic make you a temp 21x21 tent just don't make it air tight lol

What brand pistons you end up with were did you buy them?

What brand are the old pistons since they have 2 rings assume they are not Elko


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
hoser wrote:

Hang up some plastic make you a temp 21x21 tent just don't make it air tight lol

What brand pistons you end up with were did you buy them?

What brand are the old pistons since they have 2 rings assume they are not Elko




I have some ideas about insulating the back part of the barn, but get antsy about working on stuff rather than working on the barn. lol Heck, I spent 45-min yesterday morning in my INDOOR office sorting my 1-gal pail of metric bolts into drawers hoping I had a M14x1 threaded bolt to use for pulling my Rotax's TRA clutch. No luck, except my bolts are now organized!

I got Parts Unlimited general stock pistons. Can't go wrong for $34.95 each! When the Engine goes into the buggy chassis, I'll up the piston kit with something better + teflon-coated shell + ceramic-coated dome. I just want to get her back on the snow trail and reliable for now. And got a Winderosa seal/gasket kit, and got a Denis Kirk http://denniskirk.com puller and button clips for the clutch.

The old pistons...I can't tell what they are. Markings are very plain and simple. I need to take a closer look on the underside, too. I've only had a few 10-minute spurts of free-time since I tore it down. Wife is sick and 1-yr old can't get enough of her Pops! =)

Now that I've got the bare FL350R buggy frame back from the farm, I'm hoping to get drop in a trans and take some measurements/pics with the Rotax Engine sitting in the frame. It will benefit my CAD planning, too. As usual, I have too many projects going - always. My wife has all kinds of plans for painting, moving this here & that there, re-doing this & that. The toys are becoming my "other job from 9p-11p on weeknights", lol.

Been spending some time last night and this morning reading up on the TRA clutch on this Ski-Doo. I know it will require some tuning when it goes into the buggy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Some aesthetics progress...


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File comment: Plumbing bead blasted, wiped down with acetone, warmed, and painted with ceramic exhaust paint
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2014
Location: St. John, Washington
What media/grit did you use on the head and cylinders. I am thinking about blasting the head on my 670 and powdercoating it to match the frame.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
hoser wrote:
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Piston kits, gasket set,

What brand are the old pistons since they have 2 rings assume they are not Elko.



The old pistons are indeed Elko. They're stamped "ELKO 1499". Originals??


Attachments:
IMAG6004.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
nitrosport_5 wrote:
What media/grit did you use on the head and cylinders. I am thinking about blasting the head on my 670 and powdercoating it to match the frame.



I used #8 glass bead @ 80-90psi on aluminum parts. Actually, its a mix of #8 bead and sandbox sand from Home Depot (super clean and close to the same particle size as #8). If you use straight sand, just name sure you have proper ventilation or air filter. Anything more coarse would be noticable. The #8/sand leaves a smooth bright finish with just enough surface roughness for really good paint adhesion and finish (including p-coat).

Had to purge, screen, and refill my blast cabinet after it was clogging. It was well worth it!

I want to p-coat the head/lid and the coolant pump cover. Thinking red. It'll really make the Engine "pop" (visually, not mechanically!) in the Engine bay. But since my p-coat stuff is packed away yet, I'll probably rattle can it with hi-temp gloss.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Delays as usual...

The gasket kit took 2-days to travel what Google Maps says should take 3h 58m in Wisconsin. Parts won't be here today as initially estimated, but instead are scheduled to arrive Monday 1/7.

Piston kits...the shipper gave electronic notification on Wednesday and said items would arrive 1/4, but it doesn't look like the parts actually shipped yet!

Mail delivery has come and gone here today.

COME ON, PEOPLE!!! >=( I was hoping to have this thing back together this weekend. Gonna be in the 40's again mid next week, so may not even have a chance to putt the overhauled machine around some snow.


I need to think positive. At least my clutch puller and button retainer forks arrived this morning from denniskirk.com via UPS, so i can mess with the clutch and maybe paint some stuff over the weekend. <sigh>


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
The clutch puller and button retainer forks make pulling this clutch apart a BREEZE.

As you can see, one of the roller arms is broke. Rollers and cam arms are in great shape though. Need to track down that part!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Well, the lever part is #420448196 at the dealer and is $59.49. But there are a couple clutch halves on evilBay that use the same arms part numbers for that price or less, including all 3 levers and hardware. Plus a few local beater sleds on CL.

Any ideas as to how/why this one arm would snap? The roller is moving and fine, lever base moves freely. Internally its really clean, too.

**Update: scored an outer clutch half with the same levers in it, and an oil tank (Rotax buggy) for $50 an hour away. Dealer wanted $60 for ONE LEVER! :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Got some things cleaned up this weekend. While waiting on the mechanicals, I tool care of some aesthetics. Top end stuff should arrive tomorrow.

Parts were all bead-blasted, blown off with air (including the pesky bead build-up in the threaded holes), rinsed in acetone, warmed in the oven (b/c its 25'F out), and painted.

Did the head, top cover plate, and driven clutch cover in Chevy red-orange. I like this color...it POPS in an Engine bay, a sled OR buggy Engine bay. =) Then the jugs, water pump cover, and head hose fitting are done in clear. Each part has 3 coats and paint is high-temp gloss.

Disassembled my TRA clutch and bead blasted the outer sheave interior and the spring cup. Thing looks like new! Clutch parts should be here Tuesday.


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File comment: Clean clutch!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2014
Location: St. John, Washington
nice work. now i wanna pcoat my 670 head even more lol


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:43 am 
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Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
nitrosport_5 wrote:
nice work. now i wanna pcoat my 670 head even more lol


Thanks! Ever since I saw a Rotax Engine with a yellow head, I wanted to paint mine. Pull your head and paint it!! Nice thing about the Rotax Engine is that the heads have rubber seals and/or o-rings. So you won't/can't damage a fiber gasket taking the stuff apart.


Effing pistons are still not showing any tracking updates. :shock: Contacted the seller, kandkatv.com, this morning. Parts should've been here Friday, but tracking still says the stuff never got scanned in by USPS. To reiterate...USPS SUCKS ASS!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:01 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: NW INDIANA
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
nitrosport_5 wrote:
nice work. now i wanna pcoat my 670 head even more lol


Thanks! Ever since I saw a Rotax Engine with a yellow head, I wanted to paint mine. Pull your head and paint it!! Nice thing about the Rotax Engine is that the heads have rubber seals and/or o-rings. So you won't/can't damage a fiber gasket taking the stuff apart.


Effing pistons are still not showing any tracking updates. :shock: Contacted the seller, kandkatv.com, this morning. Parts should've been here Friday, but tracking still says the stuff never got scanned in by USPS. To reiterate...USPS SUCKS ASS!!!



Yes USPS does SUCK ASS!!!
Nice looking Engine though... Ill be lookin for a rotax sled here soon seeing as how there is NO snow in Chicago so I should be able to buy one cheap...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Well, I'm 0 for 3 trying to get ahold of seller "KandKATV", so I had to start the exciting EvilBay Resolution Process. Those morons are lucky the snow is melting here! But I'm still pouting. =(

Top end gasket kit did arrive from SledPartsGuy today. Its a Winderosa kit including oil seals. Looks nice and at least the label says "Made in USA".


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Finally got my piston kits today. =)

UPDATE: I'm taking in any/all designs for a trophy for "DUMBASS DAN MOVE OF THE MONTH". Please make sure they're in PDF format. And please make sure one of the Monster calendar girls are required to be in attendance with said trophy at all times!

I bought the friggin' +.010 pistons instead of standard bore. YES, after the drama with ordering delays and all. AHHHHHH!!! :shock:

When I got to opening the boxes, I measured one piston here at work to see if its "same as OEM spec" like it claims and noticed it was measuring .010" over what my other pistons are. WELL DUUUUUUUH! The eBay ad read "Parts Unlimited Snowmobile Piston Set Rotax Formula MX 85-94 69.5mm .010"" and I was fixated on the price and the fact they'd ship quick, and missed the ".010" detail. Bad Dan, BAD DAN!

Soooo....I bit the bullet and ordered 2 Brand new SPI T-Moly Teflon Coated Piston kits IN STANDARD BORE SIZE from a different shop. And thereby bought myself another 3-4 days of waiting on parts and flushed $80 down the tube. But at least I won't have any regrets about the piston quality. The Parts Unlimited pistons look good, but edges seem razor sharp. And who knows...they're probably both made by the same company in the Far East (likely Art).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Got the SPI piston kit in the mail today. Attempted to get the pistons swapped, except the SPI wrist pin clips are IMPOSSIBLE TO INSTALL. Never in my life have I ever had this much trouble with clips. 45min and not one clip in. :'(

UPDATE: Did some reading on a few sled forums and seems a lot of people have issues with SPI clips, and opted for 18mm Wiseco or OEM equivalents. And I ordered a set of OEM clips from Honda East. Cost a whole $4.23. =) Hoping they're a stock item and I can pick them up during lunch.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Got my new piston kits installed tonight. Ended up taking 30min to make my own circlip install tool on the lather. Go to YouTube and search "Stomski circlip tool" - same concept here. Sometimes you got to get off your butt and get resourceful! lol

Got the clutch side crank seal off to have a look, and then new seal in its place. All looks and feels good. Big FAG bearing there!

I should definitely have the Engine buttoned up this weekend. :)


Attachments:
File comment: New SPI pistons/rings
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File comment: Main bearing and old seal
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File comment: Diy clip install tool
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File comment: Clip tool
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File comment: New seal. Now I know why it was a bear to remove the old one!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
Elco pistons are some of the best made you can run them 3x longer than any after market pistons without problems don't throw the old ones away what bore are the old pistons?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:56 am 
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Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
hoser wrote:
Elco pistons are some of the best made you can run them 3x longer than any after market pistons without problems don't throw the old ones away what bore are the old pistons?


Old pistons are 69.5mm also, but one has a "sticky" ring groove in one 3/4" long spot. And yep, I'm keeping them.


(Added later on 1/17)...I wish there were an affordably-priced equivalent to the Elko pistons, but at least these puppies have a good 22 years and ~1300 miles on them. They've fulfilled their duty.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:55 am 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Before I get the cylinders installed, I wanted to check the intake porting of the SeaDoo intake versus that of the sled intake. Yep, very different.

The sled intake has been optimized, per some very light grind marks here and there. The diameter of the sled intake port is 1.596" and matches the block, although the block port has flat sides (see pics). And the SeaDoo intake port is 1.394" diameter. Is this too much to overcome with the die grinder?? It's about an 1/8th" on either side. But the sides of the ports will match the block with the flat sides. I'm not carving out the crank ports on the block.

Crank port: 1.661" ID with outside edge on 5.222" diameter concentric and inside edge flat with 2.309" port-to-port flat width.
Crank port spread: 52-degree

Sled intake port: 1.596" diameter
Sled intake port spread: ~50-degrees

Doo intake port" 1.394" diameter
Sled intake port spread: ~44-degrees

I'm going to sketch each layout in Pro/E to overlay and compare.

Hunted around and found Hoser's threads on this exact same comparison...viewtopic.php?t=759" .".." .".." ."..

And maaaan was that SeaDoo carb a mess inside. Salt water cake here and there, debris, etc. So never ever just think you can buy and bolt-on a part. Check it out. Take it apart. Clean it.

Thinking I will use the sled intake's oil pump since it looks to be in better shape, and I know it works.



Again...amazed by Rotax and the swap-ability of parts. :shock:


Attachments:
File comment: Sled = left; Doo = right
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File comment: Looking from the crank-side out with the Doo intake on. The side of the crank port is flat with round top/bot.
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File comment: Sharpie to match up sled intake ports with Doo intake ports.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
So doing some basic math on this intake comparison. The Doo intake would be robbing me of a lot of power. The area of the intake port is 31% smaller and I lose 3-deg of rotary timing on each end. Hence, some changes may be in order.

Hey Hoser - did you end up modifying the Doo intake ports to match the prior sled intake ports/timing on your Rotax 440 Pilot? Did you hog out material to the larger diameter, or did you just open it up with a chamfer/radius? Did you do the work, or did you hand it over to a Rotax guru? The science of it all...I get. But just wondering if this is something I should leave to the pro's or else try myself. Not like I'm P&P'ing the jugs, just trying to get the intake swap to be seamless.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Posts: 2650
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
ID'd my carb. It's a Mikuni SBN 38mm. Diaphragm is working good and clean. Shot everything throroughly with carb cleaner. Seems to work great!

Got fancy with some dental pick tools and was able to lightly scratch the rotary intake plate to match the crankcase. Just not sure if I want to carve this one up of not. I've got a spare single carb plate.


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