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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Mikey sent me his Pilot Engine that he managed to lock up during a race he was stuck in the mud and holding it WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for 20 min or something like that I will let him give the details what lead up to its death.

I had to laugh, Mike put the Engine into the same box I shipped his Engine back in, used the same packing materials I used UPS would not ship it in a used box then forced him to buy another box so he did.

I opened the box and it ripped down the sides this is one of them super cheap ass boxes that is like tissue paper not sure what the idea was the box was about all blown out at ever seam before I opened it up hey Mike next time make them morons go around ALL SIDES of the box whit packing tape like I do so the box cant blow out.

Edit copied mikes explanation of what happen to the Engine here.

Lol ok here goes...
This was a GNCC race last year don't remember which one but it was a mudfest. I had too much air in the tires for the conditions, like a skating rink 80% of the course, in hindsite i should have got out and let some air out of the rear tires. I was never really stuck in the mud, I just had alot of wheelspin for the whole course. After the second lap I noticed the Engine getting a little boggy so I backed off but it was too late, it stopped I don't think it had seized at that point but was close. I was in the middle of a tight woods section with nowhere for peeps to go around me so i restarted Engine to get off the track, it stopped a second time this is when it was locked up. So the moral of the story is you cant run a pilot at 3/4 to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for 20 minutes at 32:1 mix if you want your clutch side bearing to live another day.


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So I have to turn the open box upside down to remove it from the box so I could get to the inner box they put bubble wrap under a 75 lb Engine yeah all the bubbles was popped how dumb

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Here is how I pack them using 1.5" to 2" thick foam board

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Engine out of the box and on the bench time to take it apart, I notice you cant turn the Engine over at all locked up tight, remove the recoil cover to see if something is jammed up inside and its not TON OF MUD inside!


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Remove the recoil pulley


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Remove the right side crank case cover, everything looks ok, looks new, nothing wrong here keeping the Engine from turning over.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Flywheel removed


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No metal in the oil everything looks great

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Split the crank cases and find the clutch side crank bearing locked up tight.

Their was no oil on the lobes on the crankshaft like you normally find when you take apart a Engine for a rebuild, this coincides with my findings years ago, if I drive my Pilot off the trailer then into the shop and take apart the Engine I find all kinds of oil inside the bottom end, if I take my Pilot warm up the Engine then run it down the hard road for a mile WOT (Wide Open Throttle) then back WOT (Wide Open Throttle) and right into the shop killing the Engine and not letting it idle THEN remove the Engine for a inspection/rebuild I find little or no oil in the bottom end.

This tells me that on long WOT (Wide Open Throttle) runs the oil is being washed out of the Engine, any oil that fell out of suspension has been remove and burned.

Any thoughts on adding oil injection to this Engine I would love to drill some holes and pipe 2 stroke Engine oil right to the bearings, additional oil for the bearing you would continue to mix gas/oil as normal this would just add a drop of 2 stroke oil into the bearing say every 3 seconds of Engine run time or something.

The HOT SETUP would be to use a injection pump like found on snowmobiles or PWC but how do we connect it to the Engine to spin it?

Anybody know of a small electric pump that would pump small amounts of 2 stroke injector oil? That oil is about 0 weight.

Ok how about if I use another Pilot fuel pump to pump the oil I guess I need to rig one up and hook it to a reservoir of oil and take it for a ride in my Pilot and see if it will pump oil and how much it will pump then pipe it to the clutch side bearing?

How about skipping all this crap and just mixing the gas/oil at 20:1 and not the current 32:1 will the extra oil be enough protection for this already to be known short lived bearing?

Getting sick of this clutch side bearing shit this is the main reason why I swapped over to the 440 Engine in my Pilot, my 440 Engine came from the factory with dual bearings on the clutch side.


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Bearing is dry like it had no oil its also discolored like it ran without oil

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Bearing separator worn in two

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:35 am
Posts: 2010
Location: Ottawa, IL
Hi Hoser, I've heard a lot about these bearings to. What would stop someone from adding a second bearing? I've heard of fl250 "super cases" that were modified to hold double bearings. Is this a feasible idea or does something prevent it? Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Fatcat wrote:
Hi Hoser, I've heard a lot about these bearings to. What would stop someone from adding a second bearing? I've heard of fl250 "super cases" that were modified to hold double bearings. Is this a feasible idea or does something prevent it? Thanks


Right, the Pilot uses the exact same bearing on the clutch side as the FL250 Engine did, the 250 was 17hp stock they had short bearing life on the FL250 when they started modifying them the fix was to add another bearing when the racing was popular the after market made cases for racing they included a double row bearing, their is not enough room behind the clutch on a Pilot for a second bearing, you would have to machine out the crank shaft lobe so you could push a wider bearing into the Engine then I think you would have lube issues.

Mikey ordered me two crank side bearings from his bearing guy were trying the FAG brand 6306 C3 bearing FAG bearings are German made and are really high quality or use to be hard telling today, the FAG 6306 C3 bearing is what was used on my ROTAX 440 Engine on the clutch side they also use two bearings not one.

Here is some pics of a 440 ROTAX crank red arrows point to the bearings the blue arrows point to the crank seals, hard to see in the pic but the bearing separator on these bearings is also plastic not steel like in the Honda OEM bearings this might help bearing life when oil is scant like when Mikey was holding it WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for extended periods of time, Mikes Engine is also a full modified Engine probably making a honest 55-60 HP or if you live in ATV Racing world its as fast as their "72 HP" CR500 Pilot engines.

We have discussed this clutch side bearing to death in the past time to try something different gotta dig out a fuel pump and rig it up see if it will pump injector oil if not will mix injector oil with gas 50/50 to thin it out see if it will pump that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:18 pm
Posts: 230
Location: Upstate, NY
Lol ok here goes...
This was a GNCC race last year don't remember which one but it was a mudfest. I had too much air in the tires for the conditions, like a skating rink 80% of the course, in hindsite i should have got out and let some air out of the rear tires. I was never really stuck in the mud, I just had alot of wheelspin for the whole course. After the second lap I noticed the Engine getting a little boggy so I backed off but it was too late, it stopped I don't think it had seized at that point but was close. I was in the middle of a tight woods section with nowhere for peeps to go around me so i restarted Engine to get off the track, it stopped a second time this is when it was locked up. So the moral of the story is you cant run a pilot at 3/4 to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for 20 minutes at 32:1 mix if you want your clutch side bearing to live another day.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
We were getting quite a ways off topic discussion solutions for better oiling for the clutch side bearing so I split this topic we can continue the discussion here Mikey Pilot Engine Poofkaboom (More oil) viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10190&start=0


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
UPDATE going to assemble your Engine today, have the FAG bearings you sent http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9715 I have the bearings I ordered for the mag side, see this post http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9703 I am going to use the Kawasaki bearing part number 92045-0074 I already removed the metal seal on the back side washed, oiled and both bearings been in the freezer all night waiting for the hot crank cases to drop into :-)

Wife is off to work oven is preheating to 225 degrees once hot cases going in.

They back ordered the vesrah full gasket kit I ordered for your Engine looks like its on back order for two more weeks so I am using one of my vesrah gasket kits from my personal stock so it does not hold up the project.

I have the Honda clutch side crank seals actually I have about 15 of them because I over ordered by mistake, I also have the right case cover seal that came with your bearings I ordered I don't have the mag side crank seal, I do have two mag side crank seals that Mudbogger sent me that he bought from Randy at http://odysseysalvage.com so I am going to use one of them we can order more to replace the one we used of his, this is just a regular oil seal nothing special I will post pics and details later.

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