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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Stix sent me his CR500 converted Pilot Engine for a rebuild, cant find his other post but I will let him tell the story what happen.

The big end of the rod bearing is completely gone, I tore the Engine down so I could get the crank shipped off to Speedchaser for a rebuild, the piston still looks good (pics later) I will have to measure everything but I am pretty sure it can be reused I also need to look at it real close with a magnifying glass to see if the top of the piston made contact with the head when the rod bearing went.

Lots of dirt or some kind of crap in this Engine what kind of filter you been running?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Both the bearings came out stuck on the crank had to take to my buddies and pull them with a clam shell type bearing puller.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I been inside this Engine before :-) Who was the former owner?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Cases has already been hoserized and the cylinder matched to the cases.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Crank pin welded on both sides wonder if this will be a problem for Speedchaser or if he has a cutter that he can pilot off the center hole in the pin that will cut just the weld off smooth then press it apart, once the weld is removed pretty sure the weld will fracture when pressed where it did penetrate since the materials are so hard?

More later gotta 350 Engine to go finish


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Ill be damned!? The previous owners name was Craig from Norman Oklahoma, however I don't think that guy did anything to the Pilot but put gas in and ride it, I doubt hes the one who sent it to you, he owned it for a couple years. Now I was able to get a hold of the previous owner before him, His name is Darin Saunders, guy lives in California and he had it for about 4 years, I think he posted on this forum about having issues keeping the Powerbloc clutch from coming off. Later, when I got a hold of the Pilot, I found like 3 or 4 threads left on the crank end,I had to tap the crank to 1/2"( just a little over the 12mm stock threads), theres a post here on the retapping. After tapping to 1/2". I have had that clutch off many times and always torque to no less than 75lbs and mark my clutch, washer and bolt, never spun. Anyhow, is that dirt or sand. Im running a UNI filter mounted in the box and then I have an Outerware prefilter covering the box.

The story behind the Poofkaboom

I was coming down a dune than poof it died, I tried to crank it back over and it fired and started but only to die again and when it was running it sounded funny, so I didnt try to run it anymore, didnt want to do more damage. I had EZPilot tow me back to camp, compression was 120lbs, was about 164, I then pulled the head and I realized it was either the bottom bearing or the top bearing cause the piston was moving and crank wasn't. So I brought it back home and pulled the cylinder only to find the big end bearing bad. Shit time for a Hoseration!! Or should i say a reHoseration, has that ever been done?? lol.

What would cause the crank to loose the bearing as it did, just many hours, that dirt gatting into the Engine? I want to nip that in the butt if it was my filter system and not the previous owners filter system. I oil my filters and try to stay on top of replacing when needed, hmmm...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
I think I know where some of that sandy dirt crap came from. Before I sent the Engine to you I cleaned the outside with carb cleaner, I was pretty dirty and I bet most of that is from the residue dripping down in the case, the cylinder was off when i was cleaning, I should've bolted it on while I was cleaning , dummy me... I snapped a pic of the inside of the boot, it had sand particles in it, when I took off the outerware it had A LOT sand on top of it. Looks like Ill be looking for a cover or vent of some sort... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12734


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:11 am 
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Location: hole above ground
hoser wrote:
Crank pin welded on both sides wonder if this will be a problem for Speedchaser or if he has a cutter that he can pilot off the center hole in the pin that will cut just the weld off smooth then press it apart, once the weld is removed pretty sure the weld will fracture when pressed where it did penetrate since the materials are so hard?

More later gotta 350 Engine to go finish


Yes this will be a problem
I will have to cut down over a 1/8 deep in to that heat treated crank pin and it will still score the bore when pressed a part
I have done this before and the out come is not good most of the time .

Speed

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:15 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:45 am
Posts: 1040
Location: hole above ground
speedchaser wrote:
hoser wrote:
Crank pin welded on both sides wonder if this will be a problem for Speedchaser or if he has a cutter that he can pilot off the center hole in the pin that will cut just the weld off smooth then press it apart, once the weld is removed pretty sure the weld will fracture when pressed where it did penetrate since the materials are so hard?

More later gotta 350 Engine to go finish


Yes this will be a problem
I will have to cut down over a 1/8 deep in to that heat treated crank pin and it will still score the bore when pressed a part
I have done this before and the out come is not good most of the time .

Speed

Image


Now I quoting my self I just had a thought I'm going to cut the rod and bearing off and cut the crank pin in half . then press pin from the inside to the out side of the crank

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Speed


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
That was my next suggestion he rod is junk so cut it in the middle , but before doing that thought about grinding the weld down some to thin it out then hit the crank lobe with a lead hammer try to twist it and crack the weld?

Will be shipping it to you today Speedchaser will have Stix ship you the rod kit direct?

This will be a CR500 rod kit and for a CR500 Engine setup no need to machine the width down.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:00 am 
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Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
hoser wrote:
That was my next suggestion he rod is junk so cut it in the middle , but before doing that thought about grinding the weld down some to thin it out then hit the crank lobe with a lead hammer try to twist it and crack the weld?

Will be shipping it to you today Speedchaser will have Stix ship you the rod kit direct?

This will be a CR500 rod kit and for a CR500 Engine setup no need to machine the width down.


I ordered the rod kit Sunday, Its scheduled to get to me on Thursday. Ill get it in the mail to Speed when it comes in. Speed can you PM me your shipping addy??


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Your going to need another piston kit, looking at the top of your piston around the outside edge with a lighted magnifying glass (thanks Afastcar) on the intake site where I thought at first the top of your piston might have contacted the head when the rod went lose was actually the aluminum of the piston starting to melt away you also can see where the carbon on the piston was starting to blister in that area.

The numbers on the piston are 871m08950
Heck these piston kits are cheaper than the 400 kits
https://www.google.com/search?q=871m089 ... =firefox-a

Also looking at the faces of the rings with the lighted magnifying glass the rings are trashed in a few spots they look pitted all the way around they have vertical abrasions, between the rings on the exhaust side the surface of the piston is worn smooth all the machine marks are gone.

I would never run this Engine again with that ATVR head! Someone needs to stick a few of these CR500 heads up Neils ass maybe he could see the problem then.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
How you look on the rest of the rebuild parts?

Standard parts list to rebuild Pilot Engine bottom end I complied years ago with all the Honda numbers .

Right case oil seal 91201-402-015
Right crank case seal 91203-HE0-003
Left crank case seal 91204-HE0-003
Right crank case bearing 91033-HE0-005
Left crank case bearing 91032-HE0-005
Engine gasket kit 061A0-HE0-000

You will need a CR500 top end gasket set.

Pilot parts list page that is showing the alternatives to Honda stuff viewforum.php?f=37

I would avoid buying parts off ebay seems 99% of all parts problems I have had since Honda discontinued parts was people who bought parts off ebay, wrong size bearings, bearings with no names on them, no name rod kits when they are suppose to be PROX, seals that look like cost .49 at a flea market typical ebay whores whoring parts, unless it was OEM parts in the Honda package I would not buy anything off ebay let them losers be stuck with their shit.

viewforum.php?f=37
The above link should have links to where you can get each part.

Cant find a part put your credit card away and ASK FIRST we can help you locate what you need :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Did the jug cause the ring's abrasions? If so you might need to take a look at my exhaust bridge relief job, maybe clean it up a bit if needed. the PO did not relieve it so I tried my best to relieve it. I saw the ATVR induced melted piston. Ill get a piston on order, same size??

Credit cards, ha ha i was as happy to get rid of those as much as I was getting rid of my ex wife who liked to use them so much!

I have all the above parts mentioned except for the FL400 gasket kit, its on the way. I didnt purchase the CR500 top end gasket kit but i do have the exhaust flange gasket, intake gaskets, jug gasket and 2 different head gaskets with different thicknesses. Though I believe we don't need the head gasket with the Pro design cool head??. I bought the right crank seal from Neil, the same one Mud has in his Pilot. I went with the bearings you recommended on the parts list page, no Ebay junk!! Nachi 6306 C3 for Left and the Yamaha 93306-30629 for the Right.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Location: Chandler, AZ
I love fresh parts!!

On my friends pro design head we cut the frame mount off. We used a hack saw and cut it off by hand very carefully and then smoothed it out with a file then sand paper. I know it sounds skillbilly but if you tape the head up and use rags to cushion it and are good with a saw it worked really well.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
stix wrote:
Did the jug cause the ring's abrasions? If so you might need to take a look at my exhaust bridge relief job, maybe clean it up a bit if needed. the PO did not relieve it so I tried my best to relieve it. I saw the ATVR induced melted piston. Ill get a piston on order, same size??

Credit cards, ha ha i was as happy to get rid of those as much as I was getting rid of my ex wife who liked to use them so much!

I have all the above parts mentioned except for the FL400 gasket kit, its on the way. I didnt purchase the CR500 top end gasket kit but i do have the exhaust flange gasket, intake gaskets, jug gasket and 2 different head gaskets with different thicknesses. Though I believe we don't need the head gasket with the Pro design cool head??. I bought the right crank seal from Neil, the same one Mud has in his Pilot. I went with the bearings you recommended on the parts list page, no Ebay junk!! Nachi 6306 C3 for Left and the Yamaha 93306-30629 for the Right.



Oh you did great it looks like Christmas at your place :-)

I agree with Afastcar trim off that bracket on the head that would normally attach to the frame.

Flip the head over I forget does it have O rings if so it wont use the head gaskets.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Head pic

Yea Ill go ahead and carefully cut that mount off and trim it up as best as I can.


Yep I bought a few extra seals and such for the next Hoseration?? :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
dome pic


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:40 pm 
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stix wrote:
dome pic



Yup head came setup for Orings you have the Orings correct?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
hoser wrote:
stix wrote:
dome pic



Yup head came setup for Orings you have the Orings correct?


Yes, They came with the head and domes,there are two domes, Im ASSuming one for race gas and one for pump gas...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:40 am 
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hoser wrote:

Also looking at the faces of the rings with the lighted magnifying glass the rings are trashed in a few spots they look pitted all the way around they have vertical abrasions, between the rings on the exhaust side the surface of the piston is worn smooth all the machine marks are gone.



When you get time can you post pics of this? THanks


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:09 pm 
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hoser wrote:
Your going to need another piston kit, looking at the top of your piston around the outside edge with a lighted magnifying glass (thanks Afastcar) on the intake site where I thought at first the top of your piston might have contacted the head when the rod went lose was actually the aluminum of the piston starting to melt away you also can see where the carbon on the piston was starting to blister in that area.

The numbers on the piston are 871m08950
Heck these piston kits are cheaper than the 400 kits
https://www.google.com/search?q=871m089 ... =firefox-a" ."..

Also looking at the faces of the rings with the lighted magnifying glass the rings are trashed in a few spots they look pitted all the way around they have vertical abrasions, between the rings on the exhaust side the surface of the piston is worn smooth all the machine marks are gone.

I would never run this Engine again with that ATVR head! Someone needs to stick a few of these CR500 heads up Neils ass maybe he could see the problem then.


Im assuming I will need to get a 90mm piston, no way to fit another 89.5 into that bore correct? I have always remembered that all pistons (even though same size) can vary in size and need to be measured up, then bore to THAT piston.

While its on the top of my head because I might forget later. Should the cylinder be bored .006 over as ATVR recommends or since its been Hoserized and were using a Pro Design head can we stay at say .004 or Wisecos recommended clearance.

I found this quote a Offroad.com

"What about the so-called cold seizure? Don’t let the name fool you … too much heat is still the cause. It happens because the bike is fired up and run too hard right off the bat. The cylinder can’t keep up with the rapidly expanding piston. In the case of water-cooled bikes, a cause of cold seizure is uneven heating of the cylinder barrel."

Remember I can quote Neil at ATVR saying to me .006 because of COLD SEIZURES....Does that mean hes boring to .006 for the dummies that don't warm up thier Engine before blazing down the trail, or is it because his head and cyolinder combination is CRAP and the cylinder barrel doesnt heat evenly. Good grief I just want a 500 Engine that I can maintain properly, warm up properly and be able to blaze the dunes without worrying about cold seizures and crap :(


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:39 pm 
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I cut off that pesky frame mount on the cool head, turned out purty clean


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:43 pm 
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I cut off that pesky frame mount on the cool head, turned out purty clean :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:33 pm 
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Location: mustang,ok
sorry to hear about all youre problems stix . Good job on cutting the head down. looks factory.


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