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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:02 am 
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Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
stix wrote:
hoser wrote:
Your going to need another piston kit, looking at the top of your piston around the outside edge with a lighted magnifying glass (thanks Afastcar) on the intake site where I thought at first the top of your piston might have contacted the head when the rod went lose was actually the aluminum of the piston starting to melt away you also can see where the carbon on the piston was starting to blister in that area.

The numbers on the piston are 871m08950
Heck these piston kits are cheaper than the 400 kits
https://www.google.com/search?q=871m089 ... =firefox-a" .".." .".." ."..

Also looking at the faces of the rings with the lighted magnifying glass the rings are trashed in a few spots they look pitted all the way around they have vertical abrasions, between the rings on the exhaust side the surface of the piston is worn smooth all the machine marks are gone.

I would never run this Engine again with that ATVR head! Someone needs to stick a few of these CR500 heads up Neils ass maybe he could see the problem then.


Im assuming I will need to get a 90mm piston, no way to fit another 89.5 into that bore correct? I have always remembered that all pistons (even though same size) can vary in size and need to be measured up, then bore to THAT piston.

While its on the top of my head because I might forget later. Should the cylinder be bored .006 over as ATVR recommends or since its been Hoserized and were using a Pro Design head can we stay at say .004 or Wisecos recommended clearance.

I found this quote a Offroad.com

"What about the so-called cold seizure? Don’t let the name fool you … too much heat is still the cause. It happens because the bike is fired up and run too hard right off the bat. The cylinder can’t keep up with the rapidly expanding piston. In the case of water-cooled bikes, a cause of cold seizure is uneven heating of the cylinder barrel."

Remember I can quote Neil at ATVR saying to me .006 because of COLD SEIZURES....Does that mean hes boring to .006 for the dummies that don't warm up thier Engine before blazing down the trail, or is it because his head and cyolinder combination is CRAP and the cylinder barrel doesnt heat evenly. Good grief I just want a 500 Engine that I can maintain properly, warm up properly and be able to blaze the dunes without worrying about cold seizures and crap :(


I will leave the piston to cylinder clearances up to you.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:51 am 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Im not smart enough to make that decision :shock: What clearance have you found to work best in the ATVR 500 converted engines you Hoserized?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:43 pm 
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stix wrote:
Im not smart enough to make that decision :shock: What clearance have you found to work best in the ATVR 500 converted engines you Hoserized?


I have been setting the clearance on all engines to what the mfg recommends, stock, modified, all, been doing this since day one.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Well you know I trust you more than those yahhoos at ATV, I know that's not saying a lot but I know you will rebuild it right, so lets set clearance to what Wiseco recommends. I got the FL400 gasket kit in today. Ill be ordering a 90mm piston ASAP. Thank you sir!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:33 pm 
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stix wrote:
Well you know I trust you more than those yahhoos at ATV, I know that's not saying a lot but I know you will rebuild it right, so lets set clearance to what Wiseco recommends. I got the FL400 gasket kit in today. Ill be ordering a 90mm piston ASAP. Thank you sir!


10-4 your crank is on its way to Speedchaser he might already have it have not checked the tracking, you already sent him the rod kit?

When you get the other parts go ahead and ship to me no use shipping piece at a time unless your drop shipping I cant complete your Engine until the crank is back anyways, once I have the crank should be able to finish all in one day then send back to you.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
dbloudharleys wrote:
sorry to hear about all youre problems stix . Good job on cutting the head down. looks factory.


Well its in good hands now.


Rod kit was delivered to Speedchaser today


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
The Pro X website says the rod kit comes with the small end bearing as well. Will this bearing work on the Wiseco piston's wristpin?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Location: Chicago
stix wrote:
The Pro X website says the rod kit comes with the small end bearing as well. Will this bearing work on the Wiseco piston's wristpin?



YES no need to buy a CR500 small end bearing rod came with one and I have at least one spare from a rod kit I bought. :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
I just received the Wiseco piston today, Im waiting for the Vertex piston now. Im going to give the cast Vertex a try. Im hoping the cast will live longer than the forged?? Im hoping it will swell with the jug with less warm up time, although Ill still warm it up before riding. Any input here Hoser or others would be appreciated. The CR500 forum guys seem to like the Vertex brand in thier Cr500 engines and held up well. The Vertex is SUPPOSED to cover the exhaust port unlike the Pro X cast. Well just waiting for the other piston and Ill get them and the other parts sent your way Hoser. Thanks again sir. :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:33 am 
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Location: Joliet, Illinois
Is there any way you could get a side by side pic of the two pistons? Just curious to see what the differences are, or if any noticeable.....

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:20 am 
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Location: Chicago
Lonerider wrote:
Is there any way you could get a side by side pic of the two pistons? Just curious to see what the differences are, or if any noticeable.....

Thanks



Sure will I will even take them to the post office and weigh them to see weight differences, I will look around I think I have a OEM 500 piston too.

don't recall hearing anything bad about the Vertex pistons I know years ago the TRX250R guys seem to like them. They are Italian made pistons.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Question. If the static compression is higher than where I would want to be to run pump gas. Is it possible to add a head gasket to the Pro Design cool head with the "O" ring to lower compression? Just wondering...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Location: Chicago
stix wrote:
Question. If the static compression is higher than where I would want to be to run pump gas. Is it possible to add a head gasket to the Pro Design cool head with the "O" ring to lower compression? Just wondering...



Thought the pro design head came with 2 domes, one was stock and the other higher compression?

But to answer your question you could run a head gasket to lower compression but it changes your squish clearances, if it were mine I would install the larger dome (lower compression) and go from their, I think this is what we id on Afastcars CR500 Pilot maybe he remembers, you can change the dome easy enough and try the other if you feel you need more power, drain coolant unbolt the head swap domes reinstall torque head add coolant :-)

http://justyamahard350.com/articles/dale_1.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
that's a good read, my head is spinning. I made it thru Part 2.

I see where adding the head gasket could affect the squish. Going over the .035 could lead to detonation so not there.

Yes the cool head came with 2 domes


If my new cool head's bolt holes are not too big then the head should be squared up, I see where it would effect the squish as well. If the head then has an issue with being centered then the 1/8 dowel rods would be a solution according to the article. I knew the squish band was important but I really didnt know why. So its good to get both .020 "boundaries" overlapping?? Sorry for all the questions. And the Piston crown will need to fit nicely into the heads squish area, Might want to check that with the vertex vs wiseco, they SHOULD fit well. I would have done it before I sent them but...too late. It would be nice to know if there was more or less than .035 constantly along the squish area.

Is .035 piston to head clearance what the 400's and 500's like to be at, Im guessing that's pretty much standard with most 2 strokes.

Will you place the solder between the head and piston for a good measurement. Let me know if Im getting too picky. I will compensate for anything beyond a basic rebuild. Did you find the attachments that I PMed useful?


Anyhow the more I learn the more I want to know!! :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Location: Upland, Ca
how long did your last rebuild last? And what was the cause of it?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
shoubadaba wrote:
how long did your last rebuild last? And what was the cause of it?


Went for 28 hours, 3/4 of that was some hard duning. The failure was caused by a rod big end bearing failure,now if you look at the piston edge, it shows signs of excessive heat and melting, and Hoser said "Also looking at the faces of the rings with the lighted magnifying glass the rings are trashed in a few spots they look pitted all the way around they have vertical abrasions, between the rings on the exhaust side the surface of the piston is worn smooth all the machine marks are gone". I don't know what that's from, maybe I didnt relieve the bridge properly?? :shock: My plug chops always looked good mid throttle chops and hard pull chops ( I need to learn how to read the smoke rings), it did run a little on the lean side but if I went to the next bigger jet, it wouldn't clean out, and that was running with the air box lid installed with an extra 2 1/2 " hole cut in the lid.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Your crank is back from the Speedchaser rebuild using the CR500 rod since your Engine uses the CR500 top end your rods small end did not need modified to fit the width of a 400 piston.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Cases cleaned and ready for the new crank, the cases were hoserized at the last rebuild.
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One of the Engine mount dowel pins was damaged at the last Engine install so it was removed and replaced with a new dowel.

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Installed, new crank bearings, seals gaskets. :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Location: Chicago
You sent two different pistons one Wiseco and a Vertex piston.

Took them to the post office to have them weighed with just the wrist pins the
Wiesco weighed 15.1 oz
Vertex weighed 15.3 oz

The vertex was just slightly more.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Big concern is with the cut out by the wrist pin and running the stock type or ProX pistons in a CR500 cylinder that has been ported, if the cutout is too large you can have gases short cycle from the exhaust port to the wrist pin area then to the transfer ports.

I made a port map of the exhaust port then wrapped it around the vertex piston to see how close to the exhaust port is to the cut out on the side of the piston, its real close, I cant remember the recommended distance to maintain but I used the wiseco because its lighter and had a greater distance between the exhaust port than the Vertex did.

Look close in the pics you can see the clearance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:15 pm 
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The cylinder needed bored so into the boring machine it goes :-)

First gotta center the cylinder up.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Once centered and clamped down make a skim cut this will revel the condition of the bore, how straight and true it is.


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Intake side
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You can see at the exhaust bridge where Stix had relieved the exhaust bridge, you also can see below the exhaust port where the cylinder was warped or out of round from use
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Second cut shows even more look below the exhaust at the uneven wear.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:23 pm 
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3rd cut almost all the Stix is removed from the exhaust bridge :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:24 pm 
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3rd cut intake side all cleaned up nice


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