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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:27 pm 
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Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Busdriver sent me his Pilot Engine for a CSI, right out of the box I can tell this poor Pilot Engine has been molested sometime in its life.

I notice many things right from the start, first I notice is the coolant hose is hooked to the head and not the cylinder (green arrow) it should be routed to the blue arrow, normally, their is a chance someone just stuck it their out of convenience and also a chance someone thought they needed to reverse the coolant flow through the cylinder and head?

Many of the head nuts the caps on the nuts are broken (pink) like the studs are too long this usually happens when the stock head is machined down so far that they studs are too long but the installed head is stock never been cut, more on this problem later .

Their is a non Honda bolt in the head for the spark plug wire bracket (yellow) looks like one of them them stainless steel bolt kit bolts, not always a good sign when you see them cheap ass stainless steel bolts.

If you look closer you can see the oil filler cap is actually a cap off a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower Engine, someone must have lost the original?

Look a little closer you see the cylinder nuts are non OEM non flanged self locking nuts and one of the cylinder studs is either longer or not seated correctly, lots going on, ion the outside of this Engine I see the green crank case gaskets so right away am anticipating the Engine was molested on the inside too.

I would love to talk to the person that did all the work on this Engine just to find out what happens that a Engine ends up in this condition.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Get to the intake side of things their is problems their too, the intake manifold has seen its better days not surprising given the age of the rubber I am actually impressed how well and how long these manifolds has lasted this is why I like OEM parts and hate after market parts, this Engine might be a candidate for one of the DAN-i-FOLD's ?

Notice the stainless bolts and washers :shock:

With the manifold removed you can see its a FMF reed cage and the stuffer is showing the usual problems of failing again why I hate after marker parts so much, you never see OEM doing this.

Someone made a gasket out of cork, I would have never used cork but it seems to have worked, nothing wrong with making your own gaskets just choose the best materials you can when you do it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Moving along to the starter I understand the fix and attempted repair just wonder how the starter got into the condition that required the repair.

This starter either needs replaced or a brush kit so it can be repaired, myself I would try one of the new starters and keep this one for a spare, has anybody tried one of these yet? viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4588


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Removed the head nuts and the head wont budge its stuck to the cylinder, no problem I pull the cylinder and head as one then I can put a block of wood or in this case a round chunk of nylon in the cylinder and pound the head off without damaging it.

Notice the rusted up cylinder dowels, they are junk and need replaced with the cylinder studs.

Also notice this cylinder has been sleeved (red arrow) makes you wonder what happen in the life of this cylinder that it required a sleeve.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Head removed you can see the head has been damaged, the rod is out of this Engine, meaning the big end bearing failed and spit out some parts that was beat to death by the piston.


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Half the gasket is stuck to the head the other half stuck to the cylinder the gasket was glued on with some sort of gasket sealer?
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Close up of the damage, the head can be repaired since it was a stock head their is plenty left to machine out the damage and restore the head.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Location: Chicago
I put a light hone on the cylinder to give it a little contrast to the damage to the cylinder.

Naturally someone in the past has used a rotary tool and a abrasive pad to totally destroy the gasket surface on the top AND bottom of the cylinder and the head my guess is it was a ASE Certified mechanic I have seen these professional dumb asses do this many times on automobiles, not sure why you want to GRIND AWAY a surface that needs to be PERFECTLY FLAT so it will seal and ensure long reliable life.

Honda has spent MILLIONS of dollars engineering a gasket surface then produced a great almost perfect gasket surface under mass production conditions then some dick head takes a power tool to it to save 3 minutes of scraping off the old gaskets haha its like a comedy show for mechanics WHY? How does people get this stupid and still be living?


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:59 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Remember I mention this cylinder has been sleeved, I wish I could meed the guy who performed the sleeve work on this cylinder I have a 100 questions for them first question is "Do you really do this for a living"

Who ever sleeved this cylinder got it ALL WRONG!

The top of the cylinder is not flat meaning the top of the sleeve is not flat with the rest of the gasket sealing surface, they either screwed up when they installed the sleeve and did not make sure it was fully seated so after some heat cycles the cylinder seated, or they machined the groove in the top of the cylinder to the correct depth.

Then they only matched up a few of the ports they matched up all the EASY TO REACH areas and left all the IMPORTANT areas grossly miss matched, the ROOF of the ports are more important than the floors of the ports.

Looks like no attempt was made to match the exhaust.

The cylinder is currently at, at least 81.5mm with the deep gouges in the cylinder wall I am not even sure if their is enough bore left to bore it to 82mm I will put it on my boring machine tomorrow and make some cuts until the damaged areas are removed then measure the bore to see if it can run a 82mm piston or not, if the bore will be ok then will figure out how to address the damage to the top of the cylinder and what to do to match the ports.

What a life this poor Engine must have suffered to end up with a sleeve on the last bore.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:02 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Getting into the bottom end I remove the right side cover and discover that one of the thrust washers is missing on the starter drive system, how does these parts end up missing?


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Location: Chicago
After pulling the flywheel I notice that the O ring is missing on the crank.

O rings come with each full gasket kit...


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:05 pm 
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Who ever was inside this bottom end before used cave man tools to remove the nut that holds the balancer drive gears on.

The nut is still useable with the CORRECT TOOLS.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:07 pm 
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With the right case cover removed you can see they not only didnt install the one O ring they also did not install the second O ring (red arrows)


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:09 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Looking at the mag side crank seal their is all kinds of black rubber like crap in the lips of the seal.

Look close in the second pic see the rust on the bearing ball separator.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Bearing on the clutch side of the crank was stuck on the crank had to take it to my buddies shop and use his bearing puller to remove.

The big end bearing on the rod is junk and their is lots of play the rod must be replaced on this crank or another crankshaft located.



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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Well I put the cylinder in the boring machine and the cylinder did not clean up when I reached 82mm, sorry to say but this cylinder will need another sleeve or replaced.

The area where it did not clean up was below the exhaust port but its not just a few scratches its most the intake side of the cylinder AKA thrust side or thrust zone of the cylinder wall, when the piston reaches bottom dead center then changes direction to start to travel back up the piston will rock slightly in the bore, as the piston wears and clearances increase the piston will rock more and more, if you neglect it long enough it wears a groove into the cylinder like seen in the pics, longer and the piston can fatigue enough the skirt will just break off.

The wear and damage to this bore is just too much to ignore and run anyways, if it was just a few small verticle scratches I would run it but this area of the cylinder is the bearing point for the piston, installing a piston and it would be very short lived..


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Location: Chicago
The head cleaned up just fine the damage was not all that deep their was a few pits in the dome but were not worth chasing. The gasket surface is now machined and lapped back flat again.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm
Posts: 341
Location: North San Diego
Any updates on the CR450 piston project? (or was it a CR480?)


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
consol wrote:
Any updates on the CR450 piston project? (or was it a CR480?)


CR450 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9037 AND viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8925 build was completed I installed the Engine in my wifes Pilot and rode it around the house for about a gallon or so of gas then removed and delivered to the Afastcar compound he will be installing it into his Pilot in the future, not sure what the status is on that.


Their is not a big supply of CR450 pistons, rings, wrist pins that I know of so this mod is probably the best way to go for most, it came to light back in the racing hay day of Pilot racing, it was popularized by the "no replacement for displacement" mentality.

If this cylinder did not already have a sleeve installed I would consider putting together a group buy on 82.5mm wiseco piston kits viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7109 (prices probably bad now) I don't know how thin you can run a sleeved cylinder in a Pilot.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Crankshaft sent out to have the rod changed Speedchaser was unable to do at this time so it was sent to Ken o Connor racing, the crank cases were cleaned and hoserized, new bearings installed, then assembled, used a Viton rubber seal from Simply Bearings.co.uk on the mag side of the crank Honda seals were used for the other two seals.

4 new cylinder studs, all new case dowels were installed to replace the old rusted up ones, I also installed all new orings on the crank unlike the last guy to rebuild this Engine who used none for some reason :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:05 pm 
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The cylinder was send to LA sleeve for a new sleeve to be installed, this cylinder had been sleeved before so they had to install a over sized sleeve which they did not have in stock so this added to the delay of getting the cylinder back, they had to make a new over sized sleeve while we wait this added at least a week to the whole new sleeve process but its nice to know that this can be done and that the cylinder is not junk after one sleeve.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:11 pm 
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Location: Chicago
The head finished out at 50cc so the compression will be slightly higher than the Honda advertised 149-153 psi my guess is it will be closer to 160 psi my heads at 49cc are closer to 165 psi, stock most the heads I have found were about 53cc I have never had any detonation problems running the stock head at 49cc (165 psi) on pump gas that had 91 to 93 octane at 0 degrees elevation (Florida) in the winter time, 65-80 degrees, also had no problems running it at 30 degrees and 500' elevation here at home in Illinois.

Before pic
Image

After pic

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:12 pm 
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New Wiseco standard piston.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:14 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Head ready to install.

All new head studs and head nuts were used to replace the old rusted up ones, the correct style bolt was installed in the top of the head for the spark plug wire holder, I didnt have a new one in stock so installed a used one but it has the correct size head that uses the 6mm socket :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Not sure what happen to my finished Engine pictures but once Busdriver gets the Engine at home he can take some detail pictures and post?

Anyways a new starter was installed to replaced the stock starter that was in need of a rebuild, the old starter was sent back with the Engine KEEP THAT STARTER FOR A SPARE please don't toss it even tho we can still buy new their will come a day when its a valuable item..

I also installed a new Dan i Fold to replace the aged OEM manifold, it came with both sizes of rubber manifolds the larger of the two was installed I was not sure what size carb Busdriver was going to use so I didnt use any sealer at the manifold to Dan i Fold connection in theory you should not need sealant here but I would use some to ensure it can never leak, I have seen these leak at this connection on snowmobiles before more of a weep than a leak but never the less it was not sealed, I will be using yamabond on my Dan i Fold when I install on my LT Pilot in the future, I suppose a quality silicone sealer could also be used not much is required.

This Engine came with the older FMF reed cage which is a desirable cage IMO its the 4 petal design like the 90 Pilot had only has the better stuffer design the reeds were still in great shape so were cleaned and reinstalled.

Dig around the box the transmission gaskets that also come with the gasket kit were put in with the packing materials.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
Looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough. I 'll post finished pics when it arrives.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
Dan i fold installed easily Hoser, no air leaks when pressurized?
I got 3 cannot wait to use them!! I got the OEM size rubber intakes, might have made a hasty decision on that and should have bought a larger size 1 in case---


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