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 Post subject: Comet 102c won't engage
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:14 am 
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Location: Durand, MI
More trouble, new topic. This morning I planned to do jetting runs on both pilots. I started my troublesome Ohio #1 pilot, put it in gear, no go, again. The history is that the pilot came with a comet 102c clutch with a broken spring. The pilot didn't feel like it had any top end and seemed to rev too much when going slower. I ordered a new listed 102c spring and 3 cam arms from chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts. I went to test jetting a week ago, put it in gear, and reved it but no go. I pulled the clutch off and apart. With the spring out, the clutch halves smoothly moved together and apart. I didn't really notice anything wrong so I swapped the original cam arms back in and put it back together.

That brings me to this morning. Another attempt to load on the trailer only this time I decided to try it first before moving the trailer around. Same thing, put in gear, reved up, still no go.

I have to admit that I really haven't got my brain wrapped around the fact that when the Engine rev's it pushes the halves together. It seems to me like they should be the other way around and open the halves. I saw the comet video on youtube and the faster the Engine, the closer the halves pinched together. I am out of ideas, thinking chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts sold me too stiff of a spring. Help!!! Ideas?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:32 pm 
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daddyrat wrote:
More trouble, new topic. This morning I planned to do jetting runs on both pilots. I started my troublesome Ohio #1 pilot, put it in gear, no go, again. The history is that the pilot came with a comet 102c clutch with a broken spring. The pilot didn't feel like it had any top end and seemed to rev too much when going slower. I ordered a new listed 102c spring and 3 cam arms from chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts. I went to test jetting a week ago, put it in gear, and reved it but no go. I pulled the clutch off and apart. With the spring out, the clutch halves smoothly moved together and apart. I didn't really notice anything wrong so I swapped the original cam arms back in and put it back together.

That brings me to this morning. Another attempt to load on the trailer only this time I decided to try it first before moving the trailer around. Same thing, put in gear, reved up, still no go.

I have to admit that I really haven't got my brain wrapped around the fact that when the Engine rev's it pushes the halves together. It seems to me like they should be the other way around and open the halves. I saw the comet video on youtube and the faster the Engine, the closer the halves pinched together. I am out of ideas, thinking chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts sold me too stiff of a spring. Help!!! Ideas?


I doubt he sold you a spring that was too stiff.
What color is your spring ?? The color will tell you at what rpm it will engage.
Are you sure that the belt you are running is good ?? Worn ?? Too long ??
When you rev it up and are looking at the clutch does it cycle in and out ??
My money right now is on a poo belt


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Here is some pdf files on springs and cam arms.

Also a comment by oleskool on those pdf files:
So Comet went out of business in 2009 they sold the company to Certified Parts Corp. which still makes the clutches.
The tech who worked for Comet went to work for CPC. Great guy full of helpful info.

So the lighter the weights in there the higher RPM grab the heavier the weight the lower.
The 2 carts on here are all the spring and weight specs they have.

EXP-102c with 45.5g weights with pink spring will engage at 3150RPM
102c with 45.5g weights with a purple spring will engage at 4500RPM
Hope that gives you some ref when looking at the chart.

NOTE- anything with and X over it is obsolete.


Attachments:
cam arm chart.pdf [2.2 MiB]
Downloaded 130 times
spring chart.pdf [45.5 KiB]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:50 pm 
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canadian oddy wrote:
Here is some pdf files on springs and cam arms.

Also a comment by oleskool on those pdf files:
So Comet went out of business in 2009 they sold the company to Certified Parts Corp. which still makes the clutches.
The tech who worked for Comet went to work for CPC. Great guy full of helpful info.

So the lighter the weights in there the higher RPM grab the heavier the weight the lower.
The 2 carts on here are all the spring and weight specs they have.

EXP-102c with 45.5g weights with pink spring will engage at 3150RPM
102c with 45.5g weights with a purple spring will engage at 4500RPM
Hope that gives you some ref when looking at the chart.

NOTE- anything with and X over it is obsolete.


Thanks Oddy, great info. I think the chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts spring was purple, the original broken spring was yellow, I think. I didn't pull the clutch off this time and will have to pull it again to verify for sure, I just shoved the pilot back in the corner and swore at it.

Can you think of something that I could have put together wrong while putting the Engine back in? I left the transmission and shift cables in place when I pulled the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). I pulled the clutch outer plate off to replace the spring but that is as far as I went on the clutch. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:57 pm 
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These are relatively simple machines. I doubt you screwed anything up just replacing the spring as that would be a straight foreword job.
The only other thing I can think of right now is that the clutch faces could be worn bad but you would see a deep groove on the faces.
Another thing could be that the bolt is not tight holding the clutch on but that would be a long shot.
I stand by my original comment about the belt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:58 pm 
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canadian oddy wrote:
These are relatively simple machines. I doubt you screwed anything up just replacing the spring as that would be a straight foreword job.
The only other thing I can think of right now is that the clutch faces could be worn bad but you would see a deep groove on the faces.
Another thing could be that the bolt is not tight holding the clutch on but that would be a long shot.
I stand by my original comment about the belt.


Belt is brand new from 4X4tuff; the belt did work before I pulled it apart. I only used on 4 or 5 unsuccessful jetting runs. The guy there at 4X4tuff talked me into it after I got my pipe. Said all the racers use it and there is something special about it, don't remember what that was, but took his word for it. I think I probably also paid a premium price for it, and got one for each pilot. They have ribs on both sides if that means anything.

The face does have a noticeable groove on the face but Iron Dog looked at it and said it was fine. He is a longtime sled wrench so he should know clutches. Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:31 pm 
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daddyrat wrote:
Belt is brand new from 4X4tuff; the belt did work before I pulled it apart. I only used on 4 or 5 unsuccessful jetting runs. The guy there at 4X4tuff talked me into it after I got my pipe. Said all the racers use it and there is something special about it, don't remember what that was, but took his word for it. I think I probably also paid a premium price for it, and got one for each pilot. They have ribs on both sides if that means anything.

The face does have a noticeable groove on the face but Iron Dog looked at it and said it was fine. He is a longtime sled wrench so he should know clutches. Thanks again!


Yes those are good belts from what I have read on this site. I believe they are a carbon fiber type but not sure on that. You did not get screwed buying that belt in my opinion.
My clutch also has a slight groove but runs fine.
So now all I can think of is three things: 1) is the bolt tight on the crank ?? 2) what is the gap between the belt and the shiv faces ?? It should be belt width plus about .020" 3) is the driven shiv working properly ?? Could the key be sheared and it is spinning on the shaft of the transmission ??
Put it in gear, pull the belt and jack up the machine. Turn the driven shiv by hand does it turn the wheels ?? Now have someone hold the rear wheels tight and try to turn the shiv. Wheels turn ??


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Thanks oddy, good suggestions. I think it is time that I find an assistant. Jack up the rear end, have assistant gas it with front brake on, watch clutch action. Seems like front clutch action could be observed while in neutral, than try in gear. I might also give Iron Dog a call for ideas. I got everything put away in the garage right now so this will have to wait but thanks for helping me develop a plan. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:44 pm 
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I also wonder if it could be your transmission torque clutch ??
Section 11-3 in the manual.
It's possible that the disks or (weak) springs inside are shot and it's slipping bad.
You may be able to tell by holding the rear wheels somehow so that they can't turn and then turn the driven shiv on the trans by hand. How hard is it to turn this shiv ?? -- if at all. If you can't turn the shiv then maybe the clutch pack is still good. Not really sure how you can tell for certain other than pulling the clutch pack and mic'n the disks and checking the free length on the springs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:16 pm 
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canadian oddy wrote:
I also wonder if it could be your transmission torque clutch ??
Section 11-3 in the manual.
It's possible that the disks or (weak) springs inside are shot and it's slipping bad.
You may be able to tell by holding the rear wheels somehow so that they can't turn and then turn the driven shiv on the trans by hand. How hard is it to turn this shiv ?? -- if at all. If you can't turn the shiv then maybe the clutch pack is still good. Not really sure how you can tell for certain other than pulling the clutch pack and mic'n the disks and checking the free length on the springs.


Damn oddy, I had no idea there was a plated clutch on this thing, that clutch style, I understand. :) Anyway, I think it is more likely something with my disassembly or assembly when I pulled the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Probably something simple, after all, it moved before I tore it down. Iron dog just said pull the belt, rev it up and watch the front sheave action. I really need to get eyes on it at this point.

One of the last things I did was put new rear brake pads on it. I had to really compressed the caliper piston back to get them to fit. They seemed pretty tight when I was done. Maybe they are locked. I always move the pilot around on dollys never much on wheels in the garage. I tried to drive off the dollys both times, I will look at that again. Thanks oddy, I appreciate your ideas.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:28 am 
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Quote: One of the last things I did was put new rear brake pads on it. I had to really compressed the caliper piston back to get them to fit. They seemed pretty tight when I was done.

WELL now that we have a little more info ---------------- did you back off the adjuster bolt ??
Section 14-14 in the manual. Pic of system in section 14-0.
I set the one on my FL350 so that there is just a slight bit of drag but not much. Should be able to turn the rear wheel by hand with no real effort.

Edit: below is a pic of the FL350 rear caliper but the pilot is the same. The adjuster bolt is item #24 and the lock nut is item #30. Item #15 must also be set correctly.


Attachments:
rear brake caliper.jpg
rear brake caliper.jpg [ 93.21 KiB | Viewed 3458 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:09 am 
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I would do the following in order:
1) remove the belt
2) start machine and rev it up and if the drive shiv closes up its good so leave it alone. Right now I am thinking you got 102c tunnel vision. You are laser focused on that clutch. I don't give a poo what spring or arms you have in there. If it moves its good.
3) jack up the back of the machine and turn the rear wheels by hand. They should turn with two fingers. If not your rear brakes are not set correct. If they are not set correct it would put tremendous amount of stress on that torque clutch. Not good because I would think you will take it out in short order.

I got tunnel vision myself based on the title of this thread. Apparently this thing was running and the only thing you did was a clutch and the brakes and now its a no go. My cash is on the brakes now that you have supplied that info.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:27 am 
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canadian oddy wrote:
I would do the following in order:
1) remove the belt
2) start machine and rev it up and if the drive shiv closes up its good so leave it alone. Right now I am thinking you got 102c tunnel vision. You are laser focused on that clutch. I don't give a poo what spring or arms you have in there. If it moves its good.
3) jack up the back of the machine and turn the rear wheels by hand. They should turn with two fingers. If not your rear brakes are not set correct. If they are not set correct it would put tremendous amount of stress on that torque clutch. Not good because I would think you will take it out in short order.

I got tunnel vision myself based on the title of this thread. Apparently this thing was running and the only thing you did was a clutch and the brakes and now its a no go. My cash is on the brakes now that you have supplied that info.


uhmmm, probably should have mentioned that earlier. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:11 am 
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Quick update:

The rear brakes are not binding.

I am preparing for a week vacation and didn't have time to look into the pilot although I did jack the rear end up and the rear wheels turned freely in neutral. Maybe next weekend I will get a chance to pull the belt and watch the clutch spin....

Still moving forward, kinda...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:54 am 
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Pulled the belt and had my wife rev it up in neutral. The clutch worked!!! I watched the clutch flop closed and than close and spread with the throttle applied but!!! all at a very high rpm.

I still need to take it out and clean it out, the pilot is all loaded up with a few starts on the Engine but no go. I got back from a family vacation and got everything put away. Here is a quick video I made of our trip, no Honda's but a few cool parasailing clips.

https://youtu.be/WT2Yub2LHIE


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Today I took the pilots to my wife's Uncles farm for jetting runs.

Pilot #2 is the one from Florida, and the pilot I rode on Memorial Day weekend. It ran fine overall but seemed a bit flat riding that day. After the ride, I dropped the main jet one size to lean it a little. Today the Pilot ran great and the power was explosive. Very happy with this pilot, putting it away for our Labor Day weekend ride.

My troublesome Pilot #1 from Ohio. It smoked like crazy at my house and I could barely rev it up high enough to engage the clutch, the topic of this thread. "Can oddy" said I shouldn't need to clean it out and he was right. I thought in a open area I could get it to clean out with a few revs. It didn't. I smoked and bogged down the drive only to turn around and smoke and bog all the way back. I pulled the carb and found that in all my swapping I left out the "pilot" or "idle" jet out, it was just a open hole.

I put in a #55 "pilot jet" in and a stock 39mm #160 main jet. It now ran but lean on main. I bumped the main jet size 7 more times, taking all afternoon, and now find myself at a #190 main. It runs pretty good, much better than when I started. I think I still need to drop the needle, the mid seems a little rich. The Pilot jetting is close now but not yet explosive like Pilot #2.

The clutch is still an issue. The spring seems to be one of those that engages high, I think I read 4500 rpm on the paper. The problem is when it disengages. It seems to stick and continue to drive forward. If I hit the brakes and slow it down the clutch finally disengages and rpms drop to idle. It started doing this a few times but now doesn't disengage everytime now. A month ago I swapped in the original cam arms to troubleshoot. I still have the brand new cam arms and plan to put them in for this disengage issue.

Last issue, Over the summer I put new rear brake pads on. Today the rear brake pads seemed to disintegrate. The brake now throbs at the lever and has left brake shoe material everywhere, stuck on the rotor, and piles on top of the skid plate. I guess I need new pad and to somehow clean that rotor. Thanks for looking, any Ideas on the clutch disengage issue? Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Clutch hanging up: I would be looking for flat spots on the rollers or worn bushings on the weights. But my money is on the main bushing. I bet it is hanging up on the shaft. Is this not a fiber bushing ?? Could have some rocks n crap embedded in it or it's not lubed. Try to give it a shot of dry graphite spray from the belt side and take it for a spin.
I am sure some will take a shot at me for saying this but I lube the 94c bushing with some grease when I take it apart. Works well on my brothers machine. I have the 102c on mine and use graphite spray. Works well for me. These things need some cleaning and lube once in a while as we all ride in some grimy environments.

Brake issue: Oh my. I would put a dial on that brake rotor to check for run out. That don't sound good.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Crap...

Last week I felt I ended up pretty close on the jetting. I jetted so many times last Saturday that I quit clamping the airbox to the boot to save time. This Saturday to finish up, I clamped the boot to the air box and expected the jetting to still be close. Today I trailered it for a test drive. Lean again on the main jet!!!!!!!! This f-ing thing is beating me down. I have started at #160 and jumped 8 times in increments of 5 to a size of #195. Plug still says lean, sputtering for gas at wide open. Not sure what happened.

The one thing constant in this nightmare from the start has been the lean condition. I first replaced a low flowing fuel pump and thought I fixed it. I than pressure checked the Engine and ultimately had a leaking crank seal and bad, warping intake manifold which both conditions were fixed plus a new top end.

I have a fairly new looking 39mm kiehin carb that came with it. Could that be my problem? I have had a few carbs I just couldn't jet right on atv's before and bought new and had luck. Should I buy a carb? Should I go stock carb or another 39mm?

The rear brake condition turned out to be self inflicted and is fixed.

I installed the new cam weights back on my clutch and cleaned it again. It seemed to help the "hanging" issue although it may have sightly hung once today but is better than it was. The jury is still out on that condition as the jetting issue has become a priority again.

Throwing the towel in on having 2 pilots for my ride next weekend. I was planning on having my adult son ride the good Florida pilot, me on the troublesome Ohio pilot, now he will have to ride his dirt bike...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Quote: "I than pressure checked the Engine and ultimately had a leaking crank seal and bad, warping intake manifold which both conditions were fixed"

Did you pressure test the Engine again after all this was fixed ??
The intake manifold thing scares me.

Quote: "Last week I felt I ended up pretty close on the jetting. I jetted so many times last Saturday that I quit clamping the airbox to the boot to save time. This Saturday to finish up, I clamped the boot to the air box and expected the jetting to still be close. Today I trailered it for a test drive. Lean again on the main jet!!!!!!!! "

If you thought you had it and now it is no good that just screams air leak to me because it is intermittent.
Could also be float level in carb but I think that is a stretch right now. You could check it though.
Good call on not taking it with you. All you would do is blow it up. You got to be patient.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Thanks Canadian oddy, I appreciate your responses. I have been reluctant to pressure check the rebuilt Engine worrying that I would pump too much pressure and blowout my new seals. With that said, it is time. I assumed the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) was sealed good due to it making an audible sucking sound when I was f-ing with hand turning the clutch and belt. It sounded sealed.

Assuming the compression and leak down check out. Ever heard of a bad carb? I would agree with your statement a few weeks ago, "the standard jet size that came with the carb should be close." Standard main jet size for the 39mm carb is a #160. This morning I upped it a size from #190 to a #195 and it still wasn't enough... Seems like I still have a leak and the only thing left is the carb.

Next Saturday is my ride, Sunday I will work the 10 hours for the ride video. Maybe I can do the leak down pressure check Monday, or maybe not...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Quote: " I have been reluctant to pressure check the rebuilt Engine worrying that I would pump too much pressure and blowout my new seals."
Every two smoke Engine MUST be pressure/vacuum checked for leaks after a rebuild. If you got a leak and don't address it you WILL blow an Engine. You won't "blow out" your seals if you use the correct psi. That's about 7 psi. I use 10 psi and haven't blow out a seal yet. Even if I does blow out a seal at these pressures then that's good. Better to have it happen in the shop than 40 miles back in the bush. It wouldn't have lasted then anyways.

Quote: " I assumed the m o t o r (Internal Combustion Motor) was sealed good due to it making an audible sucking sound"
That sucking sound just tells me your rings are sealing good -- that's all. It tells you nothing about any case, intake or base gasket leaks.

Quote: "Assuming the compression and leak down check out. Ever heard of a bad carb?"
It's possible but I think you are really reaching. I would have to pass on that unless you could see an obvious issue with it.

Quote: " Standard main jet size for the 39mm carb is a #160. This morning I upped it a size from #190 to a #195 and it still wasn't enough..."
That's just screaming AIR LEAK to me.

Quote: "Seems like I still have a leak and the only thing left is the carb"
Nope -- read the above again.
You must pressure test with the intake on it. I got no confidence in your intake manifold.


Edit: The rubber ring under the top cap of the carb is in good condition right ??
As well as the rubber cable boot right ??


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:23 pm 
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1) I was just going through your old posts and you said in one of them that your buddy Iron Dog found a damaged seal on the crank clutch side and it is discontinued.
So what did you guys do about that ??

2) Apparently he also found a leaky intake manifold. Probably one you bought from aftersuks based on the issues and how it was described in that post.
So what did you guys do about that ??


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:17 am 
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canadian oddy wrote:
1) I was just going through your old posts and you said in one of them that your buddy Iron Dog found a damaged seal on the crank clutch side and it is discontinued.
So what did you guys do about that ??

2) Apparently he also found a leaky intake manifold. Probably one you bought from aftersuks based on the issues and how it was described in that post.
So what did you guys do about that ??


The original clutch side seal is discontinued and not available but there are compatible sized seals available out there. The original had something special about it, double lipped, or something. He found a compatably sized seal people are using and replaced it. He mentioned the situation and how the new seal probably won't last as long as an original.

Iron Dog jumped all over the intake manifold, he obviously has seen problems before. I looked at the original manifold before and saw no cracks in the rubber but he said the problem is the warping in the center. He measures them and than special orders what he called a "Mikuni intake" from one of his sources. It almost sounded like standard practice for him and he replaced it.

Is the carb cap supposed to seal? In between weekends, I had to mess with the cable adjusting bolt on top of the cap to turn down the idle and probably never made sure the boot was completely pushed down on the cap. The cable adjusting bolt has never really been locked down and probably moves some with my spinning off the cap a hundred times a day.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:13 am 
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The carb cable boot not bolt. The boot seals the top of the to the carb basically where the cable enters. It has been debated before that a missing or damaged boot can let extra air slide by causing a lean condition.
I'd agree with CO and I think most would that you need to pressure test it again. That's the starting point because any leak at all will make tuning impossible.
Just keep in mind it's a Engine. It's operation is basic and any issue can be addressed with enough patience.
I know you have to be frustrated by now but it will all work out.
We're all rooting for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:20 am 
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Quote: " Is the carb cap supposed to seal? "
Yes -- should be a rubber (flat) ring under the cap.
Quote: " Iron Dog jumped all over the intake manifold, he obviously has seen problems before. I looked at the original manifold before and saw no cracks in the rubber but he said the problem is the warping in the center. He measures them and than special orders what he called a "Mikuni intake" from one of his sources. It almost sounded like standard practice for him and he replaced it. "
LOL -- I wonder who sells that shyt ??

I think we are reaching a bit here though.

Pressure test Engine -- Amen


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