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 Post subject: roadx's 89 pilot project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
First I would like to say Hi.. and what a great site for info.

I purchased a 89 fl400 pilot not running. symptoms are hard starting, backfiring and in general just wont run correctly

these are the things I have checked or replaced and the to do list.

1. reeds have been replaced with boyesen stock pro reeds. found reeds burnt probably from backfiring. reed cage is fine and reused with new gaskets. intake manifold looks, good no cracks

2. carburetor has been cleaned and rebuilt with stock main #140 and idle jet #52 and float level set. air-fuel has been set to 1 1/8 turns out. needle jet set on second clip from top. air filter replaced with foam Uni filter and oiled.

3. new fuel lines. I haven't check fuel flow because I cant get it to idle for a correct fuel flow reading. gas lines fill up so at this point I will assume it is getting correct amount of fuel. I do have a new Polaris fuel pump. vacuum line has been replaced. OEM fuel filter cleaned, gas tank is free from rust.

4. new spark plug. NGK br7es gap checked

5. compression is at 140 psi. when I replaced the reeds I viewed the piston through the intake. looks good, no scratching, rubbing or gulling.

Ok.... now for the things on the to do list.

1. I tested the coil and found the coil boot to be bad. removed boot and exposed the wire then wrapped it around the spark plug for a temporary test. it did seem to run better but hard to tell until a receive new coil. coil tested. across coil green black .03 ohms. coil green to spark plug lead 4.18 ohm and same with black 4.18 ohms without boot. spark plug boot open no continuity. replacing coil

2. pressure test lower end. DYI pressure tester. have parts on order. low pressure gauge, schrader valve, freeze plug, various pvc parts.

3. new belts on order from 4x4 tuff

if interested? I will keep ya guys posted with my progress. Is there anything you suggest checking while parts arrive?

is it possible to use a fuel tee off a 250 or 350? part # 16710-VM0-770

thanks!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
roadx wrote:
First I would like to say Hi.. and what a great site for info.

I purchased a 89 fl400 pilot not running. symptoms are hard starting, backfiring and in general just wont run correctly

these are the things I have checked or replaced and the to do list.

1. reeds have been replaced with boyesen stock pro reeds. found reeds burnt probably from backfiring. reed cage is fine and reused with new gaskets. intake manifold looks, good no cracks

2. carburetor has been cleaned and rebuilt with stock main #140 and idle jet #52 and float level set. air-fuel has been set to 1 1/8 turns out. needle jet set on second clip from top. air filter replaced with foam INA filter and oiled.

3. new fuel lines. I haven't check fuel flow because I cant get it to idle for a correct fuel flow reading. gas lines fill up so at this point I will assume it is getting correct amount of fuel. I do have a new Polaris fuel pump. vacuum line has been replaced. OEM fuel filter cleaned, gas tank is free from rust.

4. new spark plug. NGK br7es gap checked

5. compression is at 140 psi. when I replaced the reeds I viewed the piston through the intake. looks good, no scratching, rubbing or gulling.

Ok.... now for the things on the to do list.

1. I tested the coil and found the coil boot to be bad. removed boot and exposed the wire then wrapped it around the spark plug for a temporary test. it did seem to run better but hard to tell until a receive new coil. coil tested. across coil green black .03 ohms. coil green to spark plug lead 4.18 ohm and same with black 4.18 ohms without boot. spark plug boot open no continuity. replacing coil

2. pressure test lower end. DYI pressure tester. have parts on order. low pressure gauge, schrader valve, freeze plug, various pvc parts.

3. new belts on order from 4x4 tuff

if interested? I will keep ya guys posted with my progress. Is there anything you suggest checking while parts arrive?

is it possible to use a fuel tee off a 250 or 350? part # 16710-VM0-770

thanks!!


Welcome new guy.
It appears you have the fundamentals down. Obviously mechanically inclined.
"if interested" ------- we always are here.
You do not need to have the machine run to check the fuel flow. I just use the starter. Remove line from carb and pump into a measuring cup. You need 4.5oz in 10sec approx. If you are not getting this then the "T" check valve may be no good. You don't need the stock Honda "T". You can make your own check valves like I did for my FL350's viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17832
You said it is backfiring and it is not running. My money says you sheared the key on the flywheel.
Note: this backfiring may happen when you got a huge air leak. That's deadly to a two stroke. My money is still on the sheared key.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
I am going to replace the pulse line with a better hose then check the fuel flow. I like to try and use stock parts if possible. but thanks for the T" DYI check valve remedy.
I am going to do the leak down test and if that fails, it will be a good time to check the flywheel key and fly wheel main bearing seal.
thanks!



canadian oddy wrote:
roadx wrote:
First I would like to say Hi.. and what a great site for info.

I purchased a 89 fl400 pilot not running. symptoms are hard starting, backfiring and in general just wont run correctly

these are the things I have checked or replaced and the to do list.

1. reeds have been replaced with boyesen stock pro reeds. found reeds burnt probably from backfiring. reed cage is fine and reused with new gaskets. intake manifold looks, good no cracks

2. carburetor has been cleaned and rebuilt with stock main #140 and idle jet #52 and float level set. air-fuel has been set to 1 1/8 turns out. needle jet set on second clip from top. air filter replaced with foam INA filter and oiled.

3. new fuel lines. I haven't check fuel flow because I cant get it to idle for a correct fuel flow reading. gas lines fill up so at this point I will assume it is getting correct amount of fuel. I do have a new Polaris fuel pump. vacuum line has been replaced. OEM fuel filter cleaned, gas tank is free from rust.

4. new spark plug. NGK br7es gap checked

5. compression is at 140 psi. when I replaced the reeds I viewed the piston through the intake. looks good, no scratching, rubbing or gulling.

Ok.... now for the things on the to do list.

1. I tested the coil and found the coil boot to be bad. removed boot and exposed the wire then wrapped it around the spark plug for a temporary test. it did seem to run better but hard to tell until a receive new coil. coil tested. across coil green black .03 ohms. coil green to spark plug lead 4.18 ohm and same with black 4.18 ohms without boot. spark plug boot open no continuity. replacing coil

2. pressure test lower end. DYI pressure tester. have parts on order. low pressure gauge, schrader valve, freeze plug, various pvc parts.

3. new belts on order from 4x4 tuff

if interested? I will keep ya guys posted with my progress. Is there anything you suggest checking while parts arrive?

is it possible to use a fuel tee off a 250 or 350? part # 16710-VM0-770

thanks!!


Welcome new guy.
It appears you have the fundamentals down. Obviously mechanically inclined.
"if interested" ------- we always are here.
You do not need to have the machine run to check the fuel flow. I just use the starter. Remove line from carb and pump into a measuring cup. You need 4.5oz in 10sec approx. If you are not getting this then the "T" check valve may be no good. You don't need the stock Honda "T". You can make your own check valves like I did for my FL350's viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17832
You said it is backfiring and it is not running. My money says you sheared the key on the flywheel.
Note: this backfiring may happen when you got a huge air leak. That's deadly to a two stroke. My money is still on the sheared key.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
You can cut a little wire off and reinstall. Common thing. The boot unscrews then cut off 1/4 inch then screw back on. The electrical test very between 89 and 90 , the reading any way. Check all ground's to be sure here good. Plus we can assume you have a battery installed. You can check the pulser by removing the cap to expose T and F on the flywheel first check T remove plug on case the spark plugs the rotate the Engine by hand . Place a plastic straw in the spark plugs hole and rotate to TDC (Top Dead Center) then see if it lines up with T on flywheel looking through inspection hole. This will confirm fly wheel key intact. Then you can test trigger using F. Then case down from there. Inspect your CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) case to be sure it has not been modified . Atvr racing and other alter them and sometimes the solder comes loose causing your condition. If not stock in appearance them I would look there if To and all electral checks out. In the 90 manual it gives both 89 and 90 speces on electrical bench checks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
You can cut a little wire off and reinstall. Common thing. The boot unscrews then cut off 1/4 inch then screw back on. The electrical test very between 89 and 90 , the reading any way. Check all ground's to be sure here good. Plus we can assume you have a battery installed. You can check the pulser by removing the cap to expose T and F on the flywheel first check T remove plug on case the spark plugs the rotate the Engine by hand . Place a plastic straw in the spark plugs hole and rotate to TDC (Top Dead Center) then see if it lines up with T on flywheel looking through inspection hole. This will confirm fly wheel key intact. Then you can test trigger using F. Then case down from there. Inspect your CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) case to be sure it has not been modified . Atvr racing and other alter them and sometimes the solder comes loose causing your condition. If not stock in appearance them I would look there if To and all electral checks out. In the 90 manual it gives both 89 and 90 speces on electrical bench checks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Good one adnoh -- I never thought of using the marks on the flywheel and piston at TDC (Top Dead Center) to see if the flywheel key is sheared.
By the way your ocd is coming through :-) you got a double double post above :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Sorry! I am OCD though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Sorry! I am OCD though.


LOL yeah I think a lot of us here are from what I have read over the years :-)
Most smart people are coo coo
They think ur coo coo because your thoughts are way out there to them. They can't see outside the box.
We don't know we are coo coo -- that's why we are called coo coo


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I pulled some pics from 90 manual. it has both 89 and 90 just in case. You did say yours was an 89.
not only can you cut the end of wire at boot also at coil cheaper than new set up. Hope it helps.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
What I do to help is to copy pics and put into a word doc than make pdf than print for bench testing and put in file for future.


Attachments:
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I will also post up the difference in CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) you may have the color coding on the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) letters at plug give year.

If you trace it to CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and its been altered I can provide pics of where to cut into and repair.


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ign cdi 89 90.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
wow adnoh thanks!!

my service manual should be here in a couple days. I have been using the online manual but the pictures suck LOL.
yours is much clearer thanks.
good idea on the time mark to check if flywheel has spun.
the ignition coil is to spec's but the spark plug boot is open with no continuity. so I ordered new coil and will get a new spark plug boot to have a spare. already collecting parts for future use lol.
I will check the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and timing while I am waiting for parts.
thanks for your guys expertise!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
checked timing at TDC (Top Dead Center) and "T" is centered in view port.

checked CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and it was 340.1 ohms between Bu/Y and G (blue - yellow tracer and green wires)
both seems to be within spec's
good for peace of mind checking components.

I think I am having fuel delivery problems and maybe a lower end vacuum leak?? causing a lean condition?? plus bad spark plug boot.
when I get my DYI leak down tester parts in and built that will tell a lot.


Attachments:
IMG_20180121_141444[1].jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
looks like it is time to pull the Engine.
crank seal on pulley side looks to be leaking, it's all wet (looks like fuel) around seal.

I received my service manual today and it says the drive clutch (one on the Engine) needs to be removed. any know where to get a cheap drive pulley puller part #07kmc-he00200?

also where is a good place to get new crank seals? manufacture and part number would helpfully too.

thanks..


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
is partizilla crank case seal still the best option out there??

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/91203-KS6-004 part # 91203-KS6-004

what about the balancer side?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
roadx wrote:
looks like it is time to pull the Engine.
crank seal on pulley side looks to be leaking, it's all wet (looks like fuel) around seal.

I received my service manual today and it says the drive clutch (one on the Engine) needs to be removed. any know where to get a cheap drive pulley puller part #07kmc-he00200?

also where is a good place to get new crank seals? manufacture and part number would helpfully too.

thanks..


I am not a Pilot guy so we will have to wait for the Pilot guys to chime in.
The clutch puller is just a rod that is turned down on the end so that it fits into the crank hole without touching the threads and then you use a pusher bolt that threads into the clutch itself that pushes on the rod. You snug it up and smack it with a hammer -- repeat. It makes a very loud POP when it comes off and you think you busted something, but you didn't.

It is also possible that your double lip seal is shot and that one is hard to get. Need the Pilot guys to give you direction there, but here is a good thread on it: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9644&start=0&hilit=double+lip+seal+pilot
Also if you need to get seals then you can try these guys: https://www.colonialseal.com/search.php ... _https=yes
I got my double lip seals from the UK, but the oddy and the Pilot are different sizes. I get them from here: https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p3411 ... _info.html
Please note that the above is a FL350 seal but you could try them to see if they have the Pilot double lip seal. You are looking for a DC style.

Also below is a pdf parts book for you.


Attachments:
fl400 parts book.pdf [2.6 MiB]
Downloaded 140 times
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Here is the Pilot clutch tool: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=3324

Verify the bolt you buy threads into the clutch (correct pitch).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
If you are looking for a Pilot pdf manual or manuals from other machines you can get it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... jBDQjl5TGs
It's a clean site, no viruses. Just click on what you want.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
thanks but I do have a service manual. just looking for the right seals and drive clutch removal tool.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
I would like your suggestion for a good top end gasket set?


ordered left crank seal

Honda part number #91203-KS6-004 OIL SEAL (30X45X8)
https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/91203-KS6-004

ordered right crank seal

Honda part #91203-HE0-003 OIL SEAL (42X65X11)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/42x65x10mm-TC- ... 0033.m2042



also ordered universal holding tool Honda part #07725-0030000 for drive, driven & flywheel and drive pulley puller removal tool Honda # 07KMC-HE00200. nothing beats having the correct tools.

pulling the head/cylinder/piston next few days to inspect and have freshen up. pictures soon


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
There was some talk a long time ago about which is best, the Athena or Cosmetic kit, but I don't remember the outcome. You can use the search box to try to find it. All I do know is you MUST run the metal base gasket. Here is why -- pic below


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
those pictures say a lot about paper / fiber base gaskets and why not to use them. I will do some searching and try and find metal base and head gasket.. thanks for the heads up.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
head/cylinder and piston out


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
piston


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Posts: 81
Location: San Diego Ca
Attachment:
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the reason for the tear down

crank looks good.

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IMG_20180127_101026.jpg [ 28.59 KiB | Viewed 3750 times ]


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