Board index

My Home Page

PilotOdyssey.com By hoser...


PilotOdyssey.com Chat Room

PilotOdyssey.com Photo Album

* Login   * Register * FAQ
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/smiley_cool.png PilotOdyssey.com Chat    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/find.png PilotOdyssey.com Google Search    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_tongue.png FL400 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png FL350 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_evilgrin.png FL250 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_unhappy.png Admin Email   
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:42 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Afastcar sent me his problematic ATVR Pilot Engine, I will let him tell the story on the problems it had.

Image

I looked closer at the bottom end this morning their was metal parts of the piston down the oil galleys and behind the crank bearings so I split the cases, I know this bottom end didnt have a lot of hours on it but it had to be done all it takes is one of them chunks of aluminum to mess up one of your crank bearings then you end up with another dune trip cut short and pissed off again :shock:

Green arrows is pointing to the metal chunks behind the bearing.

ATVR fail


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Parts list, incomplete don't order anything!

Washer for behind recoil 90437-HE0-000
Gasket set (((don't need I have a new full set from your last shipment)))
Wiseco piston kit (don't know what size yet)
Crank bearing 91032-HE0-005
Crank bearing 91033-HE0-005
Wrist pin bearing 91003-HE0-003
Crank seal 91203-HE0-003
Crank seal 91204-HE0-003
Right case cover seal 91201-402-015

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Attachments:
metal in bearing.jpg
metal in bearing.jpg [ 69.66 KiB | Viewed 1889 times ]
DSC05216.JPG
DSC05216.JPG [ 78.43 KiB | Viewed 1888 times ]
DSC05217.JPG
DSC05217.JPG [ 74.47 KiB | Viewed 1888 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Whole bottom end is peppered with metal from the piston.


Attachments:
DSC05221.JPG
DSC05221.JPG [ 55.06 KiB | Viewed 1887 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Washer behind this nut is missing.

Part number for replacement is 90437-HE0-000


Attachments:
DSC05228.JPG
DSC05228.JPG [ 85.44 KiB | Viewed 1885 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Once recoil basket was removed can see the seal was not leaking.


Attachments:
DSC05232.JPG
DSC05232.JPG [ 74.9 KiB | Viewed 1884 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
To rule out over heating issues with this Engine I pulled the water pump cover to make sure the impeller was still their, connected and working, it looks ok, only thing I seen wrong is who ever was in the water pump last didnt clean off ALL the old gasket, you can see the black gasket material under the green.


Attachments:
DSC05233.JPG
DSC05233.JPG [ 75.31 KiB | Viewed 1883 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Here is just a picture of the bottom of the balancer case the idea of this pic it so show how clean the case is and the lack of dirt and or metal shavings, this is where they usually accumulate.


Attachments:
DSC05237.JPG
DSC05237.JPG [ 93.97 KiB | Viewed 1882 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
In the next few pics you can see the O ring that goes behind the balancer drive gear is cut up, their was a large chunk behind the crank bearing floating around, it looks to me that the wrong size O ring was installed then when the balancer drive gear was installed it cut off the over sized area as it was compressed.


Attachments:
DSC05239.JPG
DSC05239.JPG [ 87.7 KiB | Viewed 1880 times ]
DSC05240.JPG
DSC05240.JPG [ 93.65 KiB | Viewed 1880 times ]
DSC05241.JPG
DSC05241.JPG [ 61.81 KiB | Viewed 1880 times ]
DSC05243.JPG
DSC05243.JPG [ 62.09 KiB | Viewed 1880 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Crank out cases split.

More later


Attachments:
DSC05252.JPG
DSC05252.JPG [ 78.75 KiB | Viewed 1879 times ]
DSC05286.JPG
DSC05286.JPG [ 86.02 KiB | Viewed 1879 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Chandler, AZ
Ive had this Pilot for over ten years it ran fine but it was getting old and i wanted more power so I gave the Engine to ATVR to go through it and port it, its supposed to have new bearings seals and be ported to run on pump gas i got it back put it in broke it in and it ran great the first trip to the dunes on the second trip it ran fine the first few days then it blew up we towed it back to camp and it didnt have any water in it, so i just took the whole pilot to ATVR and they told me it blew the head gasket and seized so they fixed it, I took it to the dunes heat cycled it and when i tried to take it out to the dunes it died on the first hill but fired back up then died again and then it lost all compression I took it back to them and they told me I cold seized it, I told them to fix it and break it in for me I picked it up from them they told me they rode the piss out of it and it was fine I took it to the dunes warmed it up like they told me took it out to the dunes and it died on the first hill like before it fired right back up and i limped it to camp and just parked it, i was disgusted with it so i didnt mess with it when i got home i asked on the board what to do i checked the pump, changed the filter, changed the coil, cleaned and drained the gas tank, changed the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition), new spark plug, cleaned the gas cap and made sure it was venting, set the float level higher, went up three steps on the main jet and raised the needle one clip, next time we went out i warmed it road around camp a little then headed out to the dunes and as soon as it got under load it blew up???????? you sent me the spare Engine i took the ATVR Engine out put yours in diddnt change any settings and yours ran great all week?????? so it has me stumped did it have a air leak or to much compression?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
afastcar wrote:
Ive had this Pilot for over ten years it ran fine but it was getting old and i wanted more power so I gave the Engine to ATVR to go through it and port it, its supposed to have new bearings seals and be ported to run on pump gas i got it back put it in broke it in and it ran great the first trip to the dunes on the second trip it ran fine the first few days then it blew up we towed it back to camp and it didnt have any water in it, so i just took the whole pilot to ATVR and they told me it blew the head gasket and seized so they fixed it, I took it to the dunes heat cycled it and when i tried to take it out to the dunes it died on the first hill but fired back up then died again and then it lost all compression I took it back to them and they told me I cold seized it, I told them to fix it and break it in for me I picked it up from them they told me they rode the piss out of it and it was fine I took it to the dunes warmed it up like they told me took it out to the dunes and it died on the first hill like before it fired right back up and i limped it to camp and just parked it, i was disgusted with it so i didnt mess with it when i got home i asked on the board what to do i checked the pump, changed the filter, changed the coil, cleaned and drained the gas tank, changed the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition), new spark plug, cleaned the gas cap and made sure it was venting, set the float level higher, went up three steps on the main jet and raised the needle one clip, next time we went out i warmed it road around camp a little then headed out to the dunes and as soon as it got under load it blew up???????? you sent me the spare Engine i took the ATVR Engine out put yours in diddnt change any settings and yours ran great all week?????? so it has me stumped did it have a air leak or to much compression?



I havent checked your head yet but my money is on the head is WRONG just like these 3 were
viewtopic.php?t=3495&highlight=

I have seen the wrong head design on 2 more of their heads, same deal ATVR customers with a Engine that last only hours or sometimes minutes, after eating up a few pistons they send it to me, IMO who ever cuts their heads is a clueless mutt, whats sad is they NEVER say "oh we made a mistake" then pay for their mistake they MAKE the customers pay for their mistake its the same old story the owner didnt warm it up enough or bought too low octane gas, I remember a phase when the only fuel they would recomend for anybody that had their Engine work done was RACE GAS, its hard telling how many of THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS their clueless head cutter has cost customers, I am sure they love the guy because he MAKES THEM MONEY with head cuttings!

Now when I see a Pilot for sale and they tout ATV Racing porting I get a good laugh.

FYI my Pilot has blown by about a dozen of the ATVR Pilots in the past 14 years I have owned it, they do nothing special or nothing I cant do.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Took a closer look at the cylinder today, the only signs of "porting" I seen was they modified the exhaust, they raised it .201 or 5.12mm higher than stock, they left the width stock, its raised .155 more than I raise mine. HEY adnoh what effect will raising the exhaust that high have?

Most I ever seen a Pilot exhaust raised before this one was 4mm

The bore measured 81.07 mm and it needs bored again.

Before I do any more with the cylinder I want to figure out if raising the exhaust that high is the cause of this Engine going poofkaboom all the time under heavy load at the dunes.

Still gotta reverse engineer the head to see if that was cut wrong.

Some notes.

Top of the exhaust to the top of the cylinder was 1.617

On a stock Pilot cylinder top of the exhaust to the top of the cylinder is 1.818

I have the gasket kit but will need the bearings and seals will also need the topend kit once we figure out the cylinder.

Both Speedchaser Pilot cool heads arrived.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I do belive that will narrow the power band and have a lazy mid range pull. I will compare these numbers to what I have and do some math. Theres a lot of varibles. Before you bore can you set the piston in the cylinder where you think is TDC (Top Dead Center) and silacone in the hole and rim, put on old head gasket and head and cc. That will help a lot to see what the squish velosity is. Then csi the head. For high rpm band with that exhaust height the dome should be wide and low with a narrorwer squish band. verses the wider squish band and depper narrower dome for mid range power band. I would think the squish band should be around 40% with a corrected CR of high 5's with a lower static compression levle. I will do some port area speed #'s as well for the increased rpm band. I'm really surprised the exhaust port wasent widened with its hood being raised. Doing this with speeds new hea if that's what your gona use would help also. Does speed make diff inserts with narrower bands and diff angles.

If afatcar would post up all info on intake, exhaust,carb, setting ect. If he need list will post one up. Also what type of rinding and were he plans on using.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Chandler, AZ
39mm Carb
stock intake
1988 cr Reeds
power pro's rev pipe
power bloc clutch
no rev CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition)

this Pilot stays at the dunes so all riding in the sand. thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks Afastcar, got more. Pretty important for # crunchng.
On th e 39mm carb:
is a keihin

What main series 170 or 190 ( has to do with intake velosity)

Stocke intake;
89 or 90 ( 4 or 6 pettal) ( has to do with area related to velostiy)

Reeds:
single or dual stage ( has to do with flutter at rpm levles)
fiber or carbon ( has to do with the rise in natural freq from porting and flow rate for high rpm porting)
Note;( need to be with in .75 to 1.25 times of peak rpm freq)

Reed spacer ?
If yes how thick. ( has to do with area and reed timing on blow down)

Reed stops ? ( has to do with deflection and port blocking)


Not falimular with the 88 cr reeds, what thickness ( need to calculate reed deflection and tip ratios)

Rev pipe good for peak power of ex port change ( maybe), the golden rule for discussionis 500 rpm for every 1 mm of rise. Note: not changing the width I will use port open speed only for ratio comparison. 5mm rise equls 250 peak power rise. I will use the base peak rpm for stock of 7600 rpm with alt drive. And the change to 7850 to 7900 rpm for rev port. Not knowing frq of pipe i will assume the rev pipe is designed for over rev of 500 rpm based on max piston speed of around 8,000 rpm.

Rev delete CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition): good for over rev and lower power range. Thought on this are heavier drive poundage spring to get on the pipe. I will use mybase line info I have for this using your mods.

Alt drive: how many disc. in the pucks? Engagement speed?

Plug type and number?

What cranking pressure #, if available.

What air box set up. Pic if available

The head info will help once "H" does C S I.

"H" did ATVR clean up the itake any and make any changes other than casting flaws


I will have more question in the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Did some quick base line P O T.

CS = crank speed
POD= port open in degrees
POT= port open in time


Pretty easy to figue for those interested: Take your rpm and times by 6 then divide you duration by the new rpm #

For excell useres The formula wil look like this: rpm cell/(pod cell*6)
Afastcar estimated

Total duration ( 360 )

RPM CS 7600 7850
Deg POD 180 194
P O Time POT 0.00395 0.00412

1/2 cycle Duration ( 180 )

RPM CS 7600 7850
Deg POD 90 97
P O Time POT 0.00197 0.00206

Base line alteration

Total duration ( 360 )

RPM CS 7600 7850
Deg POD 180 186
P O Time POT 0.00395 0.00395

1/2 cycle Duration ( 180 )

RPM CS 7600 7850
Deg POD 90 93
P O Time POT 0.00197 0.00197

Raise ex port 2.14mm for base line with no width and intake change


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Chandler, AZ
adnoh wrote:
Thanks Afastcar, got more. Pretty important for # crunchng.
On th e 39mm carb:
is a keihin yes

What main series 170 or 190 ( has to do with intake velosity) don't know how can I tell?

Stocke intake;
89 or 90 ( 4 or 6 pettal) ( has to do with area related to velostiy) Stock intake

Reeds:
single or dual stage ( has to do with flutter at rpm levles)
fiber or carbon ( has to do with the rise in natural freq from porting and flow rate for high rpm porting)
Note;( need to be with in .75 to 1.25 times of peak rpm freq) I used these reeds, casting cleaned up, stuffer matched to intake, single stage fiber glass reeds. http://pilotodyssey.com/reed2.htm

Reed spacer ? no
If yes how thick. ( has to do with area and reed timing on blow down)

Reed stops ? ( has to do with deflection and port blocking) stock

Not falimular with the 88 cr reeds, what thickness ( need to calculate reed deflection and tip ratios)

Rev pipe good for peak power of ex port change ( maybe), the golden rule for discussionis 500 rpm for every 1 mm of rise. Note: not changing the width I will use port open speed only for ratio comparison. 5mm rise equls 250 peak power rise. I will use the base peak rpm for stock of 7600 rpm with alt drive. And the change to 7850 to 7900 rpm for rev port. Not knowing frq of pipe i will assume the rev pipe is designed for over rev of 500 rpm based on max piston speed of around 8,000 rpm.

Rev delete CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition): good for over rev and lower power range. Thought on this are heavier drive poundage spring to get on the pipe. I will use mybase line info I have for this using your mods.

Alt drive: how many disc. in the pucks? Engagement speed? 12 pucks

Plug type and number? NGK BR8ES

What cranking pressure #, if available. don't know

What air box set up. Pic if available http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/view ... pre+filter

The head info will help once "H" does C S I.

"H" did ATVR clean up the itake any and make any changes other than casting flaws I did the intake just matched it to the stuffer and cleaned up the casting flaws.

I will have more question in the future.




I run high grade pump gas not race gas mixed 32to1 with Amsoil HP and 10w50 Royal Purple in the balancer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks I will log results and post up later.

The mian series is what size of main jet.
Your high velosity intake reed and cage uses a smaller main jet and diff neddle.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], wyeeoddy


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group