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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
Done a compression check on my pilot today after allowing it to warm up and the gauge was reading 130psi. Honda manual says the tolerance is 149-156psi. I bought his pilot and was told it was on original bore. Is it likely to just need a set of rings and new gaskets?

Thanks

David


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:18 am
Posts: 389
Location: Round Rock
david_phillips95 wrote:
Done a compression check on my pilot today after allowing it to warm up and the gauge was reading 130psi. Honda manual says the tolerance is 149-156psi. I bought his pilot and was told it was on original bore. Is it likely to just need a set of rings and new gaskets?

Thanks

David


It is very possible indeed. You wont find out for sure until you take it apart and inspect the cylinder and head. I have been lucky enough to only have to add a new set of rings on a similiar setup in the past. Also depends on your altitude for your static compression test. Did you hold the throttle wide open when testing the compression?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
1frc wrote:
david_phillips95 wrote:
Done a compression check on my pilot today after allowing it to warm up and the gauge was reading 130psi. Honda manual says the tolerance is 149-156psi. I bought his pilot and was told it was on original bore. Is it likely to just need a set of rings and new gaskets?

Thanks

David


It is very possible indeed. You wont find out for sure until you take it apart and inspect the cylinder and head. I have been lucky enough to only have to add a new set of rings on a similiar setup in the past. Also depends on your altitude for your static compression test. Did you hold the throttle wide open when testing the compression?


Yes I held the throttle wide open and cranked the Engine for 7-10 seconds till I got the highest reading.

Looks like I better get stripping!

David


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Just because its on the stock bore diameter doesn't mean it can't be worn or worn out.

Could be a number of reasons for losing compression. Could be...
> worn rings or undersized rings (either way, excessive ring-to-wall-gap).
> stuck ring
> cylinder wall groove / garring
> air leak
> hole in your piston (?)
> upstream issue causing air flow blockage (carb, boot, reeds)
> downstream issue causing air flow blockage (head or end pipe plug)

You just never know unless you've got it apart for some CSI work. Hopefully, your jug is on the stock bore and you've got plenty of jug life left.

What is the cold compression? If it's higher comp when cold, could just isolate it to a heat issue (rings, friction).
Did you pull start or electric start it? (already answered).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Battery got a good charge? It will definitely make a difference!

If you're in need of a top end job, figure $150-$165 for a piston kit and $60-$90 for a bore + gaskets.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Location: Scotland
Yeah the battery has a good charge it sits on trickle charge when not in use so that shouldn't be an issue. I'll get the head and cylinder removed hopefully this week and find out whether it's on the original bore or not.

What are the best brands of piston to go with, I have seen wiseco kits listed.

Thanks

David


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Location: Chicago
What elevation you testing the compression at?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Location: Scotland
Elevation for my area is 28m according to google. The Engine starts no problems so I never suspected I had compression issues. I was just checking out of curiosity as I had just purchased a compression tester.

Thanks,

David


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 2681
Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Sounds like you have a great machine. You will certainly notice a different between having 130psi and 165psi compression. But you may not need a rebuild yet, however, it wouldn't hurt to pull the head to check it out. Go through the whole thing, leak check it, tighten all the bolts, etc.

david_phillips95 wrote:
What are the best brands of piston to go with, I have seen wiseco kits listed.


I've probably bought 25-30 Wiseco pistons for my Quadracers and sleds and never once have I experienced a problem, missing part, or anything. Heck...I put the Wiseco "W" decal on my gage pod!

I got my last couple FL350 pistons from a website called Jawzy's Powersports. They sell 80-82.. FL350R kits for $149 shipped. And FL400R kits for $127 shipped. http://www.jawzys.com/servlet/StoreFront I think I found 'em through ebay, and then just bought direct from their site.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Sounds like you have a great machine. You will certainly notice a different between having 130psi and 165psi compression. But you may not need a rebuild yet, however, it wouldn't hurt to pull the head to check it out. Go through the whole thing, leak check it, tighten all the bolts, etc.

david_phillips95 wrote:
What are the best brands of piston to go with, I have seen wiseco kits listed.


I've probably bought 25-30 Wiseco pistons for my Quadracers and sleds and never once have I experienced a problem, missing part, or anything. Heck...I put the Wiseco "W" decal on my gage pod!

I got my last couple FL350 pistons from a website called Jawzy's Powersports. They sell 80-82.. FL350R kits for $149 shipped. And FL400R kits for $127 shipped. http://www.jawzys.com/servlet/StoreFront" .".." .".. I think I found 'em through ebay, and then just bought direct from their site.


Suprised to see you speak so highly about wiseco IMO they are junk, cheap knock offs, low quality POS they are "forged" all right a complete forgery.

They are made from a low silicon content alloy that makes them expand more than a OEM piston.

They use to have all kinds of problems with the locator pins falling out but they have seem to fixed this problem havent heard about one falling out in a while now but it still says in the instructions your suppose to check the pins before you install the rings to make sure they are not falling out, this is the only piston mfg in the world with these instructions and problems.

Wiseco gained is popularity years ago because they were cheaper than OEM now that the company that owns wiseco has bought out about every piston mfg in the world wiseco has raised their prices by about 50% to complement their monopoly.

At the same time they raised their prices 50% they also cut back on the machining of their pistons hold a OEM in one hand and a wiseco in the other you don't need a scale to weight them you can feel the difference they are way heavier than OEM.

I keep running into piston pin fitment problems and have to use a hammer to realign the piston pin bore their machining and quality control has went down the tubes about the exact same time they raised their prices by 50%

Wiseco pistons and rings also don't wear as long as OEM pistons this has been since day one and well documented by Engine builders world wide.

You have to run more piston to cylinder clearance with a wiseco this means less power due to the piston rocking, the rocking of the piston causes the rings to scrub the cylinder wall more at TDC (Top Dead Center) that's why you see more wear on the cylinder at the top.

Dealers LOVE them because the PROFIT margin is about double what they make off a OEM piston that's why they keep pushing them and stocking them and NOT stocking OEM pistons, most guys want the piston when they walk in and don't want to order one, win win for the dealers.

Cant count the times I have seen a wiseco owner blame himself when the wiseco (seizeco) seized up in their Engine then they replaced it and ran their jutting so rich (less HP) they would foul plugs and leave a trail of blue smoke every place they went.

I could type all day about these junk POS knockoffs here is a video I made of the piston pin.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Pil ... iew=videos

What REALLY sucks is now Honda stopped production on the OEM pistons were stuck with these shitty over priced POS low quality too heavy wiseco pistons.

Spend a day search the web you will find a endless supply of wiseco horror stories, after spending a day reading ask yourself why you don't find the same problems with the OEM pistons.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7444&p=66158#p66158
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4320


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
Removed the head and cylinder tonight, not only was it not on original bore, the piston is .50 oversize! Looking at the bore and piston there's a good chance it's going to need re-bored. Won't get it sized till tommorow to know for sure.

What would you guys think I should do?

Is the best option to source a new cylinder on standard bore or should I take my chances with a wiseco piston kit?

Do I have any other options?

EDIT:- Here are some pictures of the cylinder, head & piston:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 12feb9.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 651d7b.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 34e203.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 8a0552.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 407c15.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 34e86f.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... 759945.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... cd85fa.jpg

Thanks

David


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
david_phillips95 wrote:
Removed the head and cylinder tonight, not only was it not on original bore, the piston is .50 oversize! Looking at the bore and piston there's a good chance it's going to need re-bored. Won't get it sized till tommorow to know for sure.

What would you guys think I should do?

Is the best option to source a new cylinder on standard bore or should I take my chances with a wiseco piston kit?

Do I have any other options?

Thanks

David


What I do is give the cylinder a lite hone as if I was preparing the bore for a fresh set of rings then measure the bore to see what size it is then go from their.

You really wont know where you are until you measure the cylinder who knows maybe you will get lucky and just need to hone then install a fresh piston and rings.

Not sure what OEM pistons and rings are still available if any?

The service manual will give you the max cylinder size for the .50 piston.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
hoser wrote:
david_phillips95 wrote:
Removed the head and cylinder tonight, not only was it not on original bore, the piston is .50 oversize! Looking at the bore and piston there's a good chance it's going to need re-bored. Won't get it sized till tommorow to know for sure.

What would you guys think I should do?

Is the best option to source a new cylinder on standard bore or should I take my chances with a wiseco piston kit?

Do I have any other options?

Thanks

David


What I do is give the cylinder a lite hone as if I was preparing the bore for a fresh set of rings then measure the bore to see what size it is then go from their.

You really wont know where you are until you measure the cylinder who knows maybe you will get lucky and just need to hone then install a fresh piston and rings.

Not sure what OEM pistons and rings are still available if any?

The service manual will give you the max cylinder size for the .50 piston.



If I can't get an OEM piston is a wiseco my only option?

Do you run any wiseco pistons or do you use another aftermarket brand?

Spare parts really are a nightmare for these great machines, it's such a shame.

David


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
UPDATE:

Had the bore all sized on an LK Coordinate Measuring Machine at work so wont get anymore accurate than that.

Measured it at the three positions shown in the service manual. A size was taken in line with each stud for each height and the average was calculated for each level.

The sizes i have are:

TOP: 3.1689" (80.490mm) Roundness - 0.0010" (0.0254mm)
MIDDLE: 3.1696" (80.50784mm) Roundness - 0.0014" (0.0355mm)
BOTTOM: 3.1691" (80.49514mm) Roundness - 0.0014" (0.0355mm)

Cylinder Pin was also checked and sized at 0.7876" (20.005mm)

Head and cylinder were checked for flatness and are within limits, piston is outwith limits as the scoring is pretty bad.

Going by the sizes of the bore im thinking i wont be able to get away with a hone and a new oversize 0.50mm piston. The roundness limits are 0.0004" (0.010mm) so its quite a bit out going by the sizes above.

0.50mm pistons are available from 3.1659 - 3.1666" (80.414 - 80.432mm)

The bore must have a clearance of 0.0031 - 0.0036" (0.080-0.092mm)

This means the bore size can be anywhere from 3.1690 - 3.1702" (80.4926-80.52308mm) for a .50 oversize piston.

Looks like ill need a wiseco if i want to re-use this cylinder...

David


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Today were not given many choices like years past, Honda has stopped making and selling parts for the Pilots and Odysseys in years past my best advice would have been to sell that cylinder buy a new one and use OEM pistons and rings, now sadly my best advice has to change to recommending what is available.

Wiseco requires a .004 clearance for the Pilot.

If that was my cylinder I would not waste the bore and would hone the cylinder using a riged hone to provide the .004 clearance and run the wisseco pistons.

A riged hone will actually straighten at cylinder as you hone it, using a ball hone it will just follow the uneven bore and give you a uneven hole.

Wonder if I will live long enough where I have to recommend using used pistons and rings in these engines? I have seen this done in places like India where guys go to junk yards and take apart engines looking for a over sized piston to use in their engines, they bore, hone the cylinder and fit it to match the worn pistons and rings they have available.

You can see how the ridged hone does not follow the low spots in the cylinder like a ball hone would in this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5479&start=20


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
hoser wrote:
Today were not given many choices like years past, Honda has stopped making and selling parts for the Pilots and Odysseys in years past my best advice would have been to sell that cylinder buy a new one and use OEM pistons and rings, now sadly my best advice has to change to recommending what is available.

Wiseco requires a .004 clearance for the Pilot.

If that was my cylinder I would not waste the bore and would hone the cylinder using a riged hone to provide the .004 clearance and run the wisseco pistons.

A riged hone will actually straighten at cylinder as you hone it, using a ball hone it will just follow the uneven bore and give you a uneven hole.

Wonder if I will live long enough where I have to recommend using used pistons and rings in these engines? I have seen this done in places like India where guys go to junk yards and take apart engines looking for a over sized piston to use in their engines, they bore, hone the cylinder and fit it to match the worn pistons and rings they have available.

You can see how the ridged hone does not follow the low spots in the cylinder like a ball hone would in this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5479&start=20" ."..



Thanks Hoser,

So should a 80.50 wiseco cylinder fit with a hone as it is allowed more clearance than OEM?

Im thinking of getting a proffesional to do the honing as its not something i have ever done and don't want to make a mess of it. Can you go wrong while honing or is it idiot proof?

David


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
david_phillips95 wrote:
hoser wrote:
Today were not given many choices like years past, Honda has stopped making and selling parts for the Pilots and Odysseys in years past my best advice would have been to sell that cylinder buy a new one and use OEM pistons and rings, now sadly my best advice has to change to recommending what is available.

Wiseco requires a .004 clearance for the Pilot.

If that was my cylinder I would not waste the bore and would hone the cylinder using a riged hone to provide the .004 clearance and run the wisseco pistons.

A riged hone will actually straighten at cylinder as you hone it, using a ball hone it will just follow the uneven bore and give you a uneven hole.

Wonder if I will live long enough where I have to recommend using used pistons and rings in these engines? I have seen this done in places like India where guys go to junk yards and take apart engines looking for a over sized piston to use in their engines, they bore, hone the cylinder and fit it to match the worn pistons and rings they have available.

You can see how the ridged hone does not follow the low spots in the cylinder like a ball hone would in this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5479&start=20" .".." ."..



Thanks Hoser,

So should a 80.50 wiseco cylinder fit with a hone as it is allowed more clearance than OEM?

Im thinking of getting a proffesional to do the honing as its not something i have ever done and don't want to make a mess of it. Can you go wrong while honing or is it idiot proof?

David



You will use the piston to cylinder clearance wiseco tells you to use not the Honda clearance I have a wiseco in my shop on the box it say the clearance is .004 so that's what I will use, double check yours when you get it.

Give this a read viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3115

Then this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3702

More useful info, the Pilot does not have a exhaust bridge but this has info you might be interested in http://www.pilotodyssey.com/ExhaustBridgeRelief.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
hoser wrote:
david_phillips95 wrote:
hoser wrote:
Today were not given many choices like years past, Honda has stopped making and selling parts for the Pilots and Odysseys in years past my best advice would have been to sell that cylinder buy a new one and use OEM pistons and rings, now sadly my best advice has to change to recommending what is available.

Wiseco requires a .004 clearance for the Pilot.

If that was my cylinder I would not waste the bore and would hone the cylinder using a riged hone to provide the .004 clearance and run the wisseco pistons.

A riged hone will actually straighten at cylinder as you hone it, using a ball hone it will just follow the uneven bore and give you a uneven hole.

Wonder if I will live long enough where I have to recommend using used pistons and rings in these engines? I have seen this done in places like India where guys go to junk yards and take apart engines looking for a over sized piston to use in their engines, they bore, hone the cylinder and fit it to match the worn pistons and rings they have available.

You can see how the ridged hone does not follow the low spots in the cylinder like a ball hone would in this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5479&start=20" .".." .".." ."..



Thanks Hoser,

So should a 80.50 wiseco cylinder fit with a hone as it is allowed more clearance than OEM?

Im thinking of getting a proffesional to do the honing as its not something i have ever done and don't want to make a mess of it. Can you go wrong while honing or is it idiot proof?

David



You will use the piston to cylinder clearance wiseco tells you to use not the Honda clearance I have a wiseco in my shop on the box it say the clearance is .004 so that's what I will use, double check yours when you get it.

Give this a read viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3115" ."..

Then this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3702" ."..

More useful info, the Pilot does not have a exhaust bridge but this has info you might be interested in http://www.pilotodyssey.com/ExhaustBridgeRelief.htm" ."..


Thanks for the links Hoser, i have a 0.50 Wiseco kit on its way.

Hopefully be back to 165psi compression sometime next week :D

Thanks

David


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
Piston arrived today! (thanks Pete!)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... b68a4e.jpg

David


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
david_phillips95 wrote:
Piston arrived today! (thanks Pete!)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... b68a4e.jpg" ."..

David



Nice score you got one of the older lighter pistons!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
hoser wrote:
david_phillips95 wrote:
Piston arrived today! (thanks Pete!)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... b68a4e.jpg" .".." ."..

David



Nice score you got one of the older lighter pistons!


How can you tell the difference?

What are the benefits of the lighter piston? Will it be faster revving?

Thanks

David


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
david_phillips95 wrote:
hoser wrote:
david_phillips95 wrote:
Piston arrived today! (thanks Pete!)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/ ... b68a4e.jpg" .".." .".." ."..

David



Nice score you got one of the older lighter pistons!


How can you tell the difference?

What are the benefits of the lighter piston? Will it be faster revving?

Thanks

David


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4320


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 164
Location: Scotland
The piston on the left in that link has even more material machined away just above the hole for the pin. The piston I have doesn't have this. I take it the one ok the left was a special light edition or something?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Chandler, AZ
david_phillips95 wrote:
The piston on the left in that link has even more material machined away just above the hole for the pin. The piston I have doesn't have this. I take it the one ok the left was a special light edition or something?



It's all about money the less machine work the more money goes in wiseco's pocket.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: CHICO,CA
hoser wrote:
Wonder if I will live long enough where I have to recommend using used pistons and rings in these engines? I have seen this done in places like India where guys go to junk yards and take apart engines looking for a over sized piston to use in their engines, they bore, hone the cylinder and fit it to match the worn pistons and rings they have available.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5479&start=20" ."..


i have done that once
to an 200x three wheeler and she still runs perfect


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