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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
canadian oddy wrote:
I just got the oddy back together. I followed the recommendations in this post.
I am running a 440 main now. However when we started it today we had to run the idle screw all the way in to get it to idle. Does anyone know why?? I am sure it is still a jetting issue. Also I managed to get the compression down to 148lbs by running two cylinder base gaskets for a total of .060 spacing.


Why 2 base gaskets? You should be running more head gaskets to lower your compression. By adding a base gasket, you changed your port timing.

Also, do a leak test. If it is idleing high, you could have an air leak somewhere creating a lean condition and you will be right back where you started from.

Also, make sure your air/fuel screw is out 2&1/2 turns


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Well I officially pisd now. We blew it up again after one and a half miles of riding.
I did a vaccum test and it held vaccum for five hours with NO lose in vaccum.
This test was done before we took it out for a ride. Did a positive pressure test as well
and it passed. Not sure what I gona do now. Maybe just park the junk for now. I'm done.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
canadian oddy wrote:
Well I officially pisd now. We blew it up again after one and a half miles of riding.
I did a vaccum test and it held vaccum for five hours with NO lose in vaccum.
This test was done before we took it out for a ride. Did a positive pressure test as well
and it passed. Not sure what I gona do now. Maybe just park the junk for now. I'm done.


Did you break Engine in right? Heat cycling at idle, half throttle, etc... Before riding any large distance, did you do your plug chops? Give us a run-down of what your process was before your first ride.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2865
Location: East Peoria IL
canadian oddy wrote:
I just got the oddy back together. I followed the recommendations in this post.
I am running a 440 main now. However when we started it today we had to run the idle screw all the way in to get it to idle. Does anyone know why?? I am sure it is still a jetting issue. Also I managed to get the compression down to 148lbs by running two cylinder base gaskets for a total of .060 spacing.



Who recommended you run 2 base gaskets?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Hole in the piston?

Before you pull the piston roll the piston to TDC (Top Dead Center) then look to see exactly where the timing mark is.

What was the static cranking compression?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: CHICO,CA
canadian oddy wrote:
Well I officially pisd now. We blew it up again after one and a half miles of riding.
I did a vaccum test and it held vaccum for five hours with NO lose in vaccum.
This test was done before we took it out for a ride. Did a positive pressure test as well
and it passed. Not sure what I gona do now. Maybe just park the junk for now. I'm done.


did you ever pull the flywheel and see if your flywheel key isnt halfway scherred off?
did you even break the Engine in or any heat cycles ?plug cop?

what was your jetting for the carb? main?pilot?needel clip postion?
what size carb ?


if all else falles rotax the damm thing


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2703
Location: Upland, Ca
Are you running the stock tank with fuel pump?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
B S wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
Well I officially pisd now. We blew it up again after one and a half miles of riding.
I did a vaccum test and it held vaccum for five hours with NO lose in vaccum.
This test was done before we took it out for a ride. Did a positive pressure test as well
and it passed. Not sure what I gona do now. Maybe just park the junk for now. I'm done.


did you ever pull the flywheel and see if your flywheel key isnt halfway scherred off?
did you even break the Engine in or any heat cycles ?plug cop?

what was your jetting for the carb? main?pilot?needel clip postion?
what size carb ?


if all else falles rotax the damm thing


The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) was completely stripped and cleaned.
Flywheel key is good. I did warm it up before we left home but no plug chops.
Needle clip in middle position. We ran a 440 main. It is a 38mm Mikuni.
My brother said low and mid range ran great but it spit and coughed on full throttle.
motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) blew up going up hill full throttle. Yes hole in piston.
No one suggested two cylinder base gaskets. My idea because I needed to get compression
down. It was at 170psi and with two gaskets (.030) got it down to 148psi. We ran premium
gas 20/1 oil mix. motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) warmed up well before ride. Maybe break in not the best but shouldn't
have holed the piston. I have been actively lookin for 4stroke motors since I bought these machines
about a year ago. Just can't justify paying $2000 for a quad just for the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Guess I'm just cheap.
Thanks for all the advice here on this site but not sure what I gona do now. Very angry. That's four
times for this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) now and each time it never makes it more than 3 miles. My machine runs good
and the compression is only 120lbs. They just seem to be very hot.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
shoubadaba wrote:
Are you running the stock tank with fuel pump?


Yes stock pump and tank.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
hoser wrote:
Hole in the piston?

Before you pull the piston roll the piston to TDC (Top Dead Center) then look to see exactly where the timing mark is.

What was the static cranking compression?


Ok I will do that if and when I decide to even look at the junk again.
Compression was 148psi with the two .030 cylinder base gaskets.
No vacuum leaks after five hours but will do tests before tearing it apart.
Hole in piston.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: CHICO,CA
canadian oddy wrote:
hoser wrote:
Hole in the piston?

Before you pull the piston roll the piston to TDC (Top Dead Center) then look to see exactly where the timing mark is.

What was the static cranking compression?


Ok I will do that if and when I decide to even look at the junk again.
Compression was 148psi with the two .030 cylinder base gaskets.
No vacuum leaks after five hours but will do tests before tearing it apart.
Hole in piston.

you look into an rotax yet?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
B S wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
hoser wrote:
Hole in the piston?

Before you pull the piston roll the piston to TDC (Top Dead Center) then look to see exactly where the timing mark is.

What was the static cranking compression?


Ok I will do that if and when I decide to even look at the junk again.
Compression was 148psi with the two .030 cylinder base gaskets.
No vacuum leaks after five hours but will do tests before tearing it apart.
Hole in piston.

you look into an rotax yet?


Yes I have been looking at the rotax stuff on this site. If I remember right I think you have to cut stuff
on the frame to getm to fit. Don't really wana do that. But my memory could be off and I will reread some of those posts if I decide to go that way. Seems like a lot of power for that gearbox though. During our ride when my brothers machine blew up I stripped the belt on my machine. Shredded it. If my little junk motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) can do that what would a rotax do. That belt only had about 1 1/2 hrs on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
nickRNR wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
I just got the oddy back together. I followed the recommendations in this post.
I am running a 440 main now. However when we started it today we had to run the idle screw all the way in to get it to idle. Does anyone know why?? I am sure it is still a jetting issue. Also I managed to get the compression down to 148lbs by running two cylinder base gaskets for a total of .060 spacing.


Why 2 base gaskets? You should be running more head gaskets to lower your compression. By adding a base gasket, you changed your port timing.

Also, do a leak test. If it is idleing high, you could have an air leak somewhere creating a lean condition and you will be right back where you started from.

Also, make sure your air/fuel screw is out 2&1/2 turns


I have to disagree with you that adding a base gasket changes port timing. If you add a spacer of any kind to the cylinder both the intake and exhaust ports raise the same amount. I am no expert on these motors cause obviously all mine blow up but if I am wrong here I am sure someone is gona correct me real soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
canadian oddy wrote:
nickRNR wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
I just got the oddy back together. I followed the recommendations in this post.
I am running a 440 main now. However when we started it today we had to run the idle screw all the way in to get it to idle. Does anyone know why?? I am sure it is still a jetting issue. Also I managed to get the compression down to 148lbs by running two cylinder base gaskets for a total of .060 spacing.


Why 2 base gaskets? You should be running more head gaskets to lower your compression. By adding a base gasket, you changed your port timing.

Also, do a leak test. If it is idleing high, you could have an air leak somewhere creating a lean condition and you will be right back where you started from.

Also, make sure your air/fuel screw is out 2&1/2 turns


I have to disagree with you that adding a base gasket changes port timing. If you add a spacer of any kind to the cylinder both the intake and exhaust ports raise the same amount. I am no expert on these motors cause obviously all mine blow up but if I am wrong here I am sure someone is gona correct me real soon.


AND your piston is now lower in the cylinder, not fully reaching the height it should, and also dropping lower than it should. You changed your port timing.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
Give us a run-down of your EXACT break in process. It makes all the difference in the world. Did you prep your piston? Chamfer your ports on the cylinder? Relieve the exhaust bridge? Drill oiling holes in the piston?

Another HUGE mistake you made was riding the ody without doing a plug chop. You could still have been lean on the jetting and would never have known it. The spitting and sputtering on top end would/could indicate a lean condition, starving for fuel, coughing, etc...

Here is what your build and break-in process should be...

1) Bore/hone cylinder within allowed clearance to new piston

2) Chamfer all ports to remove sharp edges as well as relieve exhaust bridge

3) Drill 3 oiling holes in piston per weisco instructions

4) Prep piston by removing all sharp edges around crown, skirt, and anywhere else

5) Flush out lower end with premixed fuel, fill lower end, slosh it around, dump it, repeat as needed

6) Assemble Engine with 1 base gasket, if you want to lower compression use 2 full head gaskets (although you shouldn't need to, unless the head has been decked)

7) I would suggest putting in a larger main jet BEFORE starting Engine (being fat is a better starting point than being lean)

8) Start Engine and let it IDLE for 10 minutes with a fan or two pointing at the Engine

9) Allow Engine to completely cool down and re-torque base nuts and head nuts

10) Start Engine and let it IDLE for another 10 minutes with fans for cooling

11) Re-torque nuts after Engine is cool

12) Time to ride. Ride it for no more than 10 minutes, NOTHING OVER HALF THROTTLE!!! Also be sure to vary your throttle position, burp the gas, if you hit a lean spot and hold the throttle in a fixed spot you can blow it up. After 10 minutes, SHUT IT DOWN AND LET IT COOL.

13) Repeat step 12 after Engine has cooled.

14) Repeat step 12, but now step it up to 3/4 throttle. Be sure to let it cool completely between runs.

15) Repeat step 14.

16) You can now do a few plug chops. Once your jetting is close, AGAIN, I SUGGEST RUNNING IT FAT and carry a few extra plugs, much easier to change a fouled plug than another Engine build.

17) You can ride the odyssey at this point, but the first full tank should be ran at an easy pace, do not just hammer on it.

If you follow these steps, you will save yourself from having to swap to a 4 stroke and your Engine will last you a very long time. You should start with a 480 to 500 main jet. I had the exact setup you have and I was lean with a 480 main jet at 700' elevation. Also, since your Engine is still air cooled, DO NOT simply shut the Engine down after a hard ride. Also, do not come to a stop and let it idle after a long hard ride. You need to keep air flowing through those fins. Cruise it around and let the Engine gradually cool down. If you cant afford a water cooled setup, add some fans. Also, I noticed you said your brother was riding it when it blew up. I would highly suggest that your are the one to ride it while it is breaking in as well as you be the one to put the first full tank on it. That way, you know for sure what is going on with it.

Take your time and good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
It had to have been way lean on wide open throttle from what I read. NickRNR is right on the money, new top end rebuild and jetting and you will be back in business. I did the same thing like 5 times in a row back in the mid 90s, mine was a bad crank seal screwing me. don't give up, they are a blast when you finally get em right.

Something else to think about, getting an EGT (pyrometer) to watch temps and putting a basic liq head n ebay radiator on to control temp spikes.

Gary


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
nickRNR wrote:
Give us a run-down of your EXACT break in process. It makes all the difference in the world. Did you prep your piston? Chamfer your ports on the cylinder? Relieve the exhaust bridge? Drill oiling holes in the piston?

Another HUGE mistake you made was riding the ody without doing a plug chop. You could still have been lean on the jetting and would never have known it. The spitting and sputtering on top end would/could indicate a lean condition, starving for fuel, coughing, etc...

Here is what your build and break-in process should be...

1) Bore/hone cylinder within allowed clearance to new piston

2) Chamfer all ports to remove sharp edges as well as relieve exhaust bridge

3) Drill 3 oiling holes in piston per weisco instructions

4) Prep piston by removing all sharp edges around crown, skirt, and anywhere else

5) Flush out lower end with premixed fuel, fill lower end, slosh it around, dump it, repeat as needed

6) Assemble Engine with 1 base gasket, if you want to lower compression use 2 full head gaskets (although you shouldn't need to, unless the head has been decked)

7) I would suggest putting in a larger main jet BEFORE starting Engine (being fat is a better starting point than being lean)

8) Start Engine and let it IDLE for 10 minutes with a fan or two pointing at the Engine

9) Allow Engine to completely cool down and re-torque base nuts and head nuts

10) Start Engine and let it IDLE for another 10 minutes with fans for cooling

11) Re-torque nuts after Engine is cool

12) Time to ride. Ride it for no more than 10 minutes, NOTHING OVER HALF THROTTLE!!! Also be sure to vary your throttle position, burp the gas, if you hit a lean spot and hold the throttle in a fixed spot you can blow it up. After 10 minutes, SHUT IT DOWN AND LET IT COOL.

13) Repeat step 12 after Engine has cooled.

14) Repeat step 12, but now step it up to 3/4 throttle. Be sure to let it cool completely between runs.

15) Repeat step 14.

16) You can now do a few plug chops. Once your jetting is close, AGAIN, I SUGGEST RUNNING IT FAT and carry a few extra plugs, much easier to change a fouled plug than another Engine build.

17) You can ride the odyssey at this point, but the first full tank should be ran at an easy pace, do not just hammer on it.

If you follow these steps, you will save yourself from having to swap to a 4 stroke and your Engine will last you a very long time. You should start with a 480 to 500 main jet. I had the exact setup you have and I was lean with a 480 main jet at 700' elevation. Also, since your Engine is still air cooled, DO NOT simply shut the Engine down after a hard ride. Also, do not come to a stop and let it idle after a long hard ride. You need to keep air flowing through those fins. Cruise it around and let the Engine gradually cool down. If you cant afford a water cooled setup, add some fans. Also, I noticed you said your brother was riding it when it blew up. I would highly suggest that your are the one to ride it while it is breaking in as well as you be the one to put the first full tank on it. That way, you know for sure what is going on with it.

Take your time and good luck.


WELL ---- almost none of the above was done.
The piston was prepd as per the above though. The biggest jet they had at our Honda shop was the 440. That's why I put it in but obviously mayb not big enough.
We do have an exhaust pyro and ralph said it didn't go over 1200' but like what was suggested here in this post earlier you don't use a pyro to jet (pic of it earlier in this post). Both motors have two 3" bilge fans. One blows on head and the other blows on cylinder right where exhaust is. Not sure what I gona do now but they are parked for the foreseeable future. I have cut and paste a lot of this stuff to wordpad and saved it. Thanks to everyone for suggestions, answers and ideas it is appreciated.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
I never use the EGT to jet with, I use it as a monitoring device. Once jetted/plug chopped for proper jetting, remember what the max EGT temp is....if it starts climbing, you know something has changed...ie air leak, elevation change, temp change, etc.

Probe location and fuel octane has a lot to do with actual temp readings. My Autometer brand EGT and probe location seems to be about right, most riding temps seems to be 100-1250 F. I know 1300-1350 will hole a piston. Just adding my 2 cents to help out.

Gary


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2703
Location: Upland, Ca
WELL ---- almost none of the above was done.



that's your problem no break in and hammering on it without proper break causes exesive heat which holed your piston.
Rebuild and Break it in correctly


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
If you would do me a favor please. Tell me what bore size your on and measure using a caliper the across you head where the squish band lip is. Then measure the combustion chamber width. Then place a flat edge across the head and measure the bowl depth.

By chance did make darn sure the needle was not too lean. If its too lean no matter what main jet your run it will hole it. I would like to do some math for a proposed MSV. Have any idea the rpm when it holed.

I would also like you to place the piston at BDC and get me a measurement to the deck from the edge of the piston and then measure from the deck to the where the exhaust port roofs are. If you able to cc the head great if not no biggie.

Thanks Adnoh


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