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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Sure its possible that the balancer is building pressure the case pressure is forcing oil past the seal into the Engine then being mixed and burned.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


Attachments:
File comment: This is where I inset it to on the spacer today.
seal.JPG
seal.JPG [ 111.89 KiB | Viewed 954 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
Your not missing anything, the manual doesn't tell you how far or which direction to put the seal in!

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:18 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.

You are right I did deep set it after I seen where it was set. I'm going to pull it out today and I can tell you about the o-ring. The bearing is tight in the housing, and everything else looks good. Will let you know. Now the million dollar question is who knows which way is the right side to press in? Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.


Went out this morning and separated the case, removed the bearing, spacer and o-ring. also removed the seal and checked with magnifying glass. The seal lips look good, no problems found. Checked o-ring the same way and found no bad spots. So now I feel confidant that the problem was where I didn't have the seal in deep enough. I am installing the seal with the numbers facing out. if anyone know if this is right or wrong let me know. LOL hell I'm getting tired of working on it and not riding more. pics. when I get the case assembled. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.


Went out this morning and separated the case, removed the bearing, spacer and o-ring. also removed the seal and checked with magnifying glass. The seal lips look good, no problems found. Checked o-ring the same way and found no bad spots. So now I feel confidant that the problem was where I didn't have the seal in deep enough. I am installing the seal with the numbers facing out. if anyone know if this is right or wrong let me know. LOL hell I'm getting tired of working on it and not riding more. pics. when I get the case assembled. Thanks Billy


you need to look on page six at the photo I posted of mine for the way I put my seal in as I have no problems


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.


Went out this morning and separated the case, removed the bearing, spacer and o-ring. also removed the seal and checked with magnifying glass. The seal lips look good, no problems found. Checked o-ring the same way and found no bad spots. So now I feel confidant that the problem was where I didn't have the seal in deep enough. I am installing the seal with the numbers facing out. if anyone know if this is right or wrong let me know. LOL hell I'm getting tired of working on it and not riding more. pics. when I get the case assembled. Thanks Billy


you need to look on page six at the photo I posted of mine for the way I put my seal in as I have no problems

ok I looked at the pic and have a question. Why did you install your seal with the solid side in? That is the only thing that I see. I replaced mine today and I will get some pics. on here in a few. Thanks Billy


Attachments:
File comment: I plan on put some low air pressure in the dipstick hole and check for leaks.
new seal.JPG
new seal.JPG [ 86.42 KiB | Viewed 917 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
I think that I found the leak in the balancer double lip seal, I found that the seal lip was just touching the spacer. When I installed it I went to the line on the spacer where the other seal was riding. But I think that the spacer pulled in when I tightened the nut up that holds the gear on. I have some pics. but I do have a question. How far can you push the seal in before it will damage it? May sound Dumb but I know it don't say in the manual (or I can't find it)? I do plan on installing a new seal before I put the Engine back in. Thanks Billy


From the picture it looks to me like you deep set the seal. In my opinion the top of the seal should be just below the taper on your housing. Also is the O-ring on the back of the spacer ??
Is your bearing tight in the housing ?? That spacer butts up against the inner race of that bearing.
I have the 11mm UK seal in mine and have had no issues and that seal is 3mm larger than yours.
Granted it "just" catches the spacer but have no issues yet.


Went out this morning and separated the case, removed the bearing, spacer and o-ring. also removed the seal and checked with magnifying glass. The seal lips look good, no problems found. Checked o-ring the same way and found no bad spots. So now I feel confidant that the problem was where I didn't have the seal in deep enough. I am installing the seal with the numbers facing out. if anyone know if this is right or wrong let me know. LOL hell I'm getting tired of working on it and not riding more. pics. when I get the case assembled. Thanks Billy


you need to look on page six at the photo I posted of mine for the way I put my seal in as I have no problems

ok I looked at the pic and have a question. Why did you install your seal with the solid side in? That is the only thing that I see. I replaced mine today and I will get some pics. on here in a few. Thanks Billy


because that's how the other one came out


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
350 seal talk viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1836&view=next


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
hoser wrote:

Thanks a lot, I read that this morning and I agree with you. I've never seen a seal that went in backwards so to speak. LOL Unless it was a single lip seal and then there is only one way to install it anyway. I plan on pressurizing the balancer case today with around 3-6 psi and make sure it don't leak. Then when I do the leak down test on the crankcase I should be covered. What is the way you usually check the seal? I just do a leak down and have never thought about checking it from the clutch side. but it could leak too. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
hoser wrote:

Thanks a lot, I read that this morning and I agree with you. I've never seen a seal that went in backwards so to speak. LOL Unless it was a single lip seal and then there is only one way to install it anyway. I plan on pressurizing the balancer case today with around 3-6 psi and make sure it don't leak. Then when I do the leak down test on the crankcase I should be covered. What is the way you usually check the seal? I just do a leak down and have never thought about checking it from the clutch side. but it could leak too. Thanks Billy


once my Engine is completed I plug fuel pump vacuum line and carb intake. Then from exhaust I have a plate with connections for gauge and pressure line. I pull 10"vacuum as well as 10psi. If it doesn't hold for half hour minimum I don't run it.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
hoser wrote:

Thanks a lot, I read that this morning and I agree with you. I've never seen a seal that went in backwards so to speak. LOL Unless it was a single lip seal and then there is only one way to install it anyway. I plan on pressurizing the balancer case today with around 3-6 psi and make sure it don't leak. Then when I do the leak down test on the crankcase I should be covered. What is the way you usually check the seal? I just do a leak down and have never thought about checking it from the clutch side. but it could leak too. Thanks Billy


once my Engine is completed I plug fuel pump vacuum line and carb intake. Then from exhaust I have a plate with connections for gauge and pressure line. I pull 10"vacuum as well as 10psi. If it doesn't hold for half hour minimum I don't run it.

Have you ever pressurized the balancer case side to check it? I did today. 6psi for about 25 min. no leaks so the seal works with the seal facing the clutch.Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
hoser wrote:

Thanks a lot, I read that this morning and I agree with you. I've never seen a seal that went in backwards so to speak. LOL Unless it was a single lip seal and then there is only one way to install it anyway. I plan on pressurizing the balancer case today with around 3-6 psi and make sure it don't leak. Then when I do the leak down test on the crankcase I should be covered. What is the way you usually check the seal? I just do a leak down and have never thought about checking it from the clutch side. but it could leak too. Thanks Billy


once my Engine is completed I plug fuel pump vacuum line and carb intake. Then from exhaust I have a plate with connections for gauge and pressure line. I pull 10"vacuum as well as 10psi. If it doesn't hold for half hour minimum I don't run it.

Have you ever pressurized the balancer case side to check it? I did today. 6psi for about 25 min. no leaks so the seal works with the seal facing the clutch.Thanks Billy


That is not needed if you do the vacuum test. If the seal don't hold the test will fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
birvin wrote:
hoser wrote:

Thanks a lot, I read that this morning and I agree with you. I've never seen a seal that went in backwards so to speak. LOL Unless it was a single lip seal and then there is only one way to install it anyway. I plan on pressurizing the balancer case today with around 3-6 psi and make sure it don't leak. Then when I do the leak down test on the crankcase I should be covered. What is the way you usually check the seal? I just do a leak down and have never thought about checking it from the clutch side. but it could leak too. Thanks Billy


once my Engine is completed I plug fuel pump vacuum line and carb intake. Then from exhaust I have a plate with connections for gauge and pressure line. I pull 10"vacuum as well as 10psi. If it doesn't hold for half hour minimum I don't run it.

Have you ever pressurized the balancer case side to check it? I did today. 6psi for about 25 min. no leaks so the seal works with the seal facing the clutch.Thanks Billy


That is not needed if you do the vacuum test. If the seal don't hold the test will fail.

I don't do a vacuum, I always do a pressure test. I just wanted to do it, and see how it came out. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
I got to install the cylinder and head yesterday, but it wouldn't pass the leak down test. After doing some checking I found that it was the head gasket leaking. I was using a triple metal gasket so I replaced it with the used head gasket and it passed. I ran the test for 1hrs. with 6psi. no leaks. I hope to drop it in today or first thing in the morning. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Installed Engine this morning. Checked compression it is @ 120 psi before first start up. Started right up, sounds good. I'm waiting on it to cool, so I can check everything to make sure it is still tight. Then fill it with water and see how it does. I am shooting for a couple of short runs in the morning then to the dirt Saturday morning. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
birvin wrote:
Installed Engine this morning. Checked compression it is @ 120 psi before first start up. Started right up, sounds good. I'm waiting on it to cool, so I can check everything to make sure it is still tight. Then fill it with water and see how it does. I am shooting for a couple of short runs in the morning then to the dirt Saturday morning. Thanks Billy


Keep us posted. Man that took a while. Lots of issues to solve like mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Yea it did!!!!! But I had it going and noticed the smell of 30w oil burning so I stopped and found the problem. Plus life and work go on regardless. But I found and fixed the problem before I messed the Engine up, so it was worth it. I also replaced the choke cable and retro kit for my carb. I should be able to get it out tomorrow and make a few runs if the stars are all lined up in the Odyssey sky's...... LOL Let you know more then. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Got everything ready to ride and found that my clutch will not engage. BUT now that gives me the reason to install the Comet clutch that I got but was holding onto until my stock clutch went out. I have never used a comet clutch, so does anyone have any info that I should know about other than lubing? Thanks Billy


Attachments:
File comment: This is just showing the room that I have in the Engine compartment.
engine room.JPG
engine room.JPG [ 154.8 KiB | Viewed 841 times ]
File comment: If you look close you can see the oil coming up the clear tube, it will make it a couple of inches then when you let off the throttle it goes back down.
oil tube.JPG
oil tube.JPG [ 94.18 KiB | Viewed 841 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Ok went to the woods today! Then Engine ran great, it got hot to begin with but I changed the routing of the hoses and that let it cool down better. I got the wear in done today. Or as much as I could with the amount of people that was running around where I was adjusting the carb. and making test runs and check the plugs. got it dialed in the plug is a little dark/tan. Rechecked Head bolts, cylinder nuts and intake bolts. I went ahead and checked the exhaust flange bolts as well as a quick check of other bolts just for the hell of it. LOL The comet clutch makes a clicking sound but it stopped the shaking in the Engine. Big difference between it and the stock clutch. I will recheck the compression next week. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
Quote:
File comment: If you look close you can see the oil coming up the clear tube, it will make it a couple of inches then when you let off the throttle it goes back down.


Put a bellows on the end of the hose and the oil will stop climbing up inside the hose.

Rand


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Randman wrote:
Quote:
File comment: If you look close you can see the oil coming up the clear tube, it will make it a couple of inches then when you let off the throttle it goes back down.


Put a bellows on the end of the hose and the oil will stop climbing up inside the hose.

Rand



Does it stop climbing up the hose because you pressurized the bellows and now the oil cant migrate because the vent is now acting like its plugged up?

Does the bellows flex the same at all temperatures?

I would run about 1' of line then add a clear inline fuel filter give the oil a place to go see what happens.

My RV rear axle pukes oil out the vent looking at the frame its been happening since new, I put a fuel filter about 8" away from the axle and routed the line so its vertical this helped some I then extended the vent line 4' keeping it high as I could this also helped but did not cure the problem so I put a catch bottle at the end of the hose so the lube is not coating the whole under side of my RV, I am going to change the axle lube before next trip see if different lube cures it, for all I know some moron put that lucas oil foaming additive in the axle that is suppose to make lubricating better lmao, could just be towing 15k lbs with a one ton truck axle is creating enough heat to affect the oil flow? Cant hold my hand on the axle after 400 miles... If oil brand change does not cure it I am going to add another vent location on the cover whilst I have the cover off (weld in a fitting) and try the different vent and plug the factory vent, also thinking about modifying the factory cover so it will hold another quart of lube or so for better heat dissipation.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
Randman wrote:
Quote:
File comment: If you look close you can see the oil coming up the clear tube, it will make it a couple of inches then when you let off the throttle it goes back down.


Put a bellows on the end of the hose and the oil will stop climbing up inside the hose.

Rand

I have always used a bellows. It also stops the dust from getting in. Thanks Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Anniston, Al
hoser wrote:
Randman wrote:
Quote:
File comment: If you look close you can see the oil coming up the clear tube, it will make it a couple of inches then when you let off the throttle it goes back down.


Put a bellows on the end of the hose and the oil will stop climbing up inside the hose.

Rand



Does it stop climbing up the hose because you pressurized the bellows and now the oil cant migrate because the vent is now acting like its plugged up?

Does the bellows flex the same at all temperatures?

I would run about 1' of line then add a clear inline fuel filter give the oil a place to go see what happens.

My RV rear axle pukes oil out the vent looking at the frame its been happening since new, I put a fuel filter about 8" away from the axle and routed the line so its vertical this helped some I then extended the vent line 4' keeping it high as I could this also helped but did not cure the problem so I put a catch bottle at the end of the hose so the lube is not coating the whole under side of my RV, I am going to change the axle lube before next trip see if different lube cures it, for all I know some moron put that lucas oil foaming additive in the axle that is suppose to make lubricating better lmao, could just be towing 15k lbs with a one ton truck axle is creating enough heat to affect the oil flow? Cant hold my hand on the axle after 400 miles... If oil brand change does not cure it I am going to add another vent location on the cover whilst I have the cover off (weld in a fitting) and try the different vent and plug the factory vent, also thinking about modifying the factory cover so it will hold another quart of lube or so for better heat dissipation.

It only goes up a few inches then it stay's there until I release the throttle, then back into the case. But I have a long tube just for the extra space if needed. One thing that I did was to run the tube up to the top and let the bellows hang up side down. I did this because in the end I put a small hole to release any pressure that may build and not let the oil go back down to the case. And this also keeps water out. The Engine is running very strong and I'm not having a discoloration in the oil so I'm not worried about the seal letting gas/oil mixture in the balancer side. My Engine has always done this so I don't see a need to worry with it. If I'm wrong let me know. Thanks Billy


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