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 Post subject: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Re-cap:
I took a little trip to Little Sahara State Park in Oklahoma.
Met some really nice people, was hot for the first time this year and blew up the Engine in my Odyssey.

I was just a few minutes in to a ride going up a small hill and it sounded like a box of rocks in my Engine.
I turned down hill and the Engine was dead before I coasted to a stop.
EzPilot gave me a tow back to camp with the Wild Cat then let me ride along with him for that ride.

Overall it was a good trip.
I could have done without the Poofkaboom but life didn’t go that way.
(My philosophy is it’s a 2 stroke so you just have to roll with the punches sometimes)

Initial thoughts:
Talked to adnoh and others and we had several ideas for what might have happened:
- I switched from Ohio gas to local, it’s possible I got E10 or E15 and this cased predetonation that cased other harm.
- I could have had the piston come apart, adnoh has a good Engine CSI showing that.
- Could have dropped the big rod bearing.
- I thought I was having driven clutch issues earlier in the day so I kept thinking a lose driven might have caused vibration.
- There was a bead of something lodged in the sparkplug that looks rounded off so it could have been a burned piston (I was paranoid about running lean and checked the plug several times but I am not going to say I have any skill at that).


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
First few pictures:
I have not got the Engine out of the buggy yet, I have removed the seat and the pipe.
It looks like the piston is still one piece but with some serious scaring.
The cylinder wall shows some scaring and you can see the hatch pattern from the honing.
It’s only a guess but I would estimate the Engine only has 10 to 15 hours on it.
In the future I think I will try to keep better records.

I dropped the bore scope in there to have a look around.
The bore scope doesn’t talk to my digital camera so I don’t have good pictures.
I tried taking pictures of the screen on the bore scope – the quality was not good.
After I get a pressure test I will pull it apart and take pictures.

First picture shows the piston looking up the exhaust.
This gives some idea of the damage to the piston.
I think the con rod big end bearing is what died, as the parts passed through the Engine they did quite a bit of damage.

Second picture shows the material lodged in the spark plug.
I thought it might be aluminum based on the rounded shape.
I have not pried it out to find out.

Third picture shows the crumbs that came out of the expansion pipe.
These particles are magnetic, so I assume I have a bad bearing.

More info when I have more time.
Since I have been home I have loaded out our cow and carted him off to the butcher (sorry cow).
Spent a few hours moving pig fence.
And replaced the alternator in the Civic that my daughter drives.
Holy cow what where the engineers that designed that thing thinking?
Damn, that was me (I used to work in the auto design group, I have several parts under the hood on this car).


Attachments:
File comment: piston looking up exhaust port
PB190126.JPG
PB190126.JPG [ 25.99 KiB | Viewed 5867 times ]
File comment: plug with somthing lodged in it
PB190133.JPG
PB190133.JPG [ 34.11 KiB | Viewed 5867 times ]
File comment: stuff that came out of the pipe
PB190135.JPG
PB190135.JPG [ 46.3 KiB | Viewed 5867 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:24 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
Sorry to hear that Lee! I hate the ethanol in everything. Luckily there is 1 pump in the county where I live that has premium ethanol free fuel. I ALWAYS fill my toys with that gas. Should be mandatory that the premium at every pump does not contain ethanol.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Holy shit that looks bad, you say all the stuff that came out the pipe was magnetic ?

I went through that Engine for bubba66 but the build thread is incomplete and I cant remember what all was done or not done searching for more info and pics viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8672&p=76617


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
i am going to say it was the rod bearing,,i have pulled pieces out of one of my engines that looked exactly like that..


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:54 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:01 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Monette Ar
rotax time!!!

sorry about the enigne.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Chris, I thought about the Rotax thing already.
But as long as there is a chance to rebuild the stock mill I will.
I’m a strong believer that Honda got it right, even if they didn’t.
One day if I can find a roller with no mot0r I might go for it.

I finally have the Engine out of the chassis.
As a lark I did the ‘put a hand over the intake and exhaust and blow in to the fuel pump pulse tube’.
There was a huge air leak.
I quick look revealed that the base gasket was blown out on the pull start side.
Looking at the picture you can see the line of the Yamabond sealer, the gasket was assembled correctly.
So I get the idea that the crank case ignited.
So if I had an aluminum base gasket would the Engine have suffered more serious damage?
Who knows I might still have a hole in the case (didn't see one yet).

As a side note I ordered a service manual and a owners manual from Helm.
They are still available.
The service manual was $39.95 and $6 for shipping.
I didn’t realize it but as delivered the FL350 came with a jet kit with 4 jets.
The manual has a chart for altitude and temperature showing the jet and clip setting on the needle.


Attachments:
File comment: Engine finaly out of the chassis.
PB270148.JPG
PB270148.JPG [ 75.25 KiB | Viewed 5768 times ]
File comment: Base gasket blow out
PB270151.JPG
PB270151.JPG [ 72.68 KiB | Viewed 5768 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Chris, I thought about the Rotax thing already.
But as long as there is a chance to rebuild the stock mill I will.
I’m a strong believer that Honda got it right, even if they didn’t.
One day if I can find a roller with no mot0r I might go for it.

I finally have the Engine out of the chassis.
As a lark I did the ‘put a hand over the intake and exhaust and blow in to the fuel pump pulse tube’.
There was a huge air leak.
I quick look revealed that the base gasket was blown out on the pull start side.
Looking at the picture you can see the line of the Yamabond sealer, the gasket was assembled correctly.
So I get the idea that the crank case ignited.
So if I had an aluminum base gasket would the Engine have suffered more serious damage?
Who knows I might still have a hole in the case (didn't see one yet).

As a side note I ordered a service manual and a owners manual from Helm.
They are still available.
The service manual was $39.95 and $6 for shipping.
I didn’t realize it but as delivered the FL350 came with a jet kit with 4 jets.
The manual has a chart for altitude and temperature showing the jet and clip setting on the needle.



Never seen the cylinder gasket blow out on a 350, I have had it happen a few times on the Pilots by the transfers, I wonder if that's why Honda used the aluminum gasket? That Engine was rebuilt using the Vesrah brand gasket kit.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
OK, I found some time to work on my Engine.
The driven clutch gave me fits.
My crank has some damage inside the nose, there last few threads have been buggerd up and reworked.
So I thought I would use a pipe to push on the crank (insert pipe, push with big ass bolt).
It’s not what is recommended on this web site but what could go wrong?
Hey I’m a big boy, I work in the R&D lab for the largest motorcycle manufacture in the world.

I used the impact to thread in the bolt, when it hit the pipe the rotation slowed down.
But the clutch didn’t pop off and the bolt kept turning ever so slowly.
I have enough mechanics skills (6 years as a body mechanic before I went back to school) to know this was an issue and stopped.
But it was too late, the end of the pipe mushroomed over and it was not coming back out.

So, back to the web site to see exactly what Hoser said to do.
I went and got a Craftsman punch as large as would fit in the nose of the crank.
Cut it off so the end of the punch was shorter than the threads in the driven (to keep the end of the punch from messing up the threads).
I would have preferred to make the skinny end as short as possible but I needed to snake the punch threw the pipe lodged in the clutch.
With this arrangement the driven popped off with no drama.


Attachments:
File comment: Ill fated attempt to use a pipe to remove the driven.
PC180154.JPG
PC180154.JPG [ 45.22 KiB | Viewed 5738 times ]
File comment: Crafstmen puch (made in the USA - who mades shit in America anymore?)
PC180152.JPG
PC180152.JPG [ 49.63 KiB | Viewed 5738 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
So I have the Engine stripped almost ready to split the case.
I don’t have a 41mm deep socket so the crank drive gear for the balancer is not off yet.
Of course I have a regular 41 that doesn’t help any.

The big end rod bearing is the primary failure for the Engine (this is why it stopped).
As a secondary issue, the cylinder base gasket is blown out and the Engine was running lean.
The piston has ‘death ash’ across the top and the underside has a huge black smudge from the oil burning under the crown.
Both are indicative of immanent failure (piston melt down).
I don’t like saying there are 2 causes of a failure.
If one of the punk kids that workes for me told be there where 2 problems in a failed test I would tell them to go back to the desk and figure out what really happened.

Apart from that the piston is scored pretty bad and the cylinder has a few gouges from bearing parts in the wrong place.
I assume I will need to bore to the next size up but I have not measured to make that determination yet.

Looking at the wrist pin bearing it looks like some of the rollers have cracks in them.
I assume this is from the forming process.
I need to look in to this some more.


Attachments:
File comment: balencer gear nut
PC180159.JPG
PC180159.JPG [ 67.64 KiB | Viewed 5733 times ]
File comment: Death ash on the crown - aluminum is over heating and starting to spall
PC180155.JPG
PC180155.JPG [ 56.47 KiB | Viewed 5733 times ]
File comment: scorch pattern on the underside of the crown
PC180158.JPG
PC180158.JPG [ 45.69 KiB | Viewed 5733 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Also, as a side note, the piston has oil holes for the exhaust bridge and the intake bridge.
I think the PO forgot to install the intake bridge!
See the photo above.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Also, as a side note, the piston has oil holes for the exhaust bridge and the intake bridge.
I think the PO forgot to install the intake bridge!
See the photo above.



As they say seeing is believing I am seeing and still having a hard time believing, DID I DO THAT? seeing this has renewed my interest in finding the rest of this engines build pictures I have searched again and cant find any more than whats on this page viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8672&p=76617 I downloaded the piston pics on that page and brighten them up and zoomed in tight I cant see the locator pins in any of them, I don't see any locater pins in the last pic where the piston has been cleaned up I would expect to see the pins in the clean piston pic if that is the case then the PO before bubba66 drilled the holes? I assume I reused the supplied piston that came with that Engine since it was discussed and was low hr, but what is important (important to me) is how did I miss the holes being drilled on the wrong side of the piston in the first place? Then usually the keen eyes we have on this site catch a missed detail like this the piston pics had 193 views, this really concern's me I already second guess myself on everything and triple check everything during my builds yet I missed something so simple and stupid, I have often said nobody is 100% this is common knowledge and most everybody realizes that nobody is 100% so action is taken or procedures has been created to minimize the chanced of something like this happening, you should see all the steps taken at a nuke power plant to ensure something like this is not over looked.

I can see now I need to make changes in my shop to ensure this or similar things cant happen I already have procedures in place to combat most problems created by distractions, no music, no TV, NO PHONE, anybody comes in to the shop ALL works stops and does not resume without reviewing about the last 10 steps I had performed before someone came into my shop or a distraction happen, (knock on the door, thunder etc.), I NEVER work on anything unless I am in the mood, if I am not 'feeling it' I simply don't work on engines that day, its been too long since I done this Engine I cant imagine what the distraction might have been for sure so I can take corrective action to ensure it does not happen again, right now I can only assume it was complacency, meaning the piston was already drilled when I received it then I didnt make the the double checks I usually make when installing the piston in the cylinder to be marked for drilling.

Before I drill these holes I install the piston on the rod with the bearing and wrist pin (no cir clips) when I pick up the piston to install it on the rod I put one finger on each of the locator pins (touch is one of the things they taught us at the nuke plant to self check) to ensure the intake side is facing the right way, then the cylinder is installed and the marks made on the piston with a pencil, the cylinder is removed marks are made on the piston where the holes go before the marks are center punched and before drilling the locator pins are verified again by touch then the piston is drilled.

I think its time for me to switch to written procedures to follow on my Engine builds so I cant be distracted again in the future and to combat things like the complacency trap that seems to have happen in this case, I also need to figure a way to sharpen and hone the skills of this sites users to spot little details like this, one thing I feel has helped to contribute to this failure was the SHITTY pictures I presented to this site and its users MORE pictures should have been taken until details like the locator pins were clearly visible in the pictures I gotta find a professional grade camera to take detailed pictures in my shop.

I am sorry I have missed this detail on your Engine I feel fully responsible it should have never happen regardless of the root cause for the failure I make no excuses for the failure let me know how I can make this right with you, this missed detail makes me wonder what other detail I might have over looked on this build and if it may have contributed to the rod failure.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
Hoser not sure if you have done this already. But you should make a sticky guideline on how to properly do a rebuild. All the little things for us guys that try to do it on our own. A complete rebuild guide, include what holes need to be opened up alittle for oiling. Proper piston pre. And the list goes on and on as you know. But a complete guide would be nice. I understand that u document most or all your builds but with all the others chiming in things can get lost or confused. it might take a bit to get a good guide put up but would be benifical I think. Once a complete guide is done for both 350's and the 400's then guys could chime in and tell is where they are buying parts from.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
I’ve run in to a few unexpected issues that have slowed me down, thought I would say something if it helps someone else.
This is stuff that doesn’t appear in the manual.
Most of the delays have been related to life in general, loading out the manure pile, cutting hay, work, that type of stuff.

First, when I pulled the cases apart one of the main crank bearings stayed with the crank.
The case looked like the bearing had spun in the case but not too bad.
I need to measure the case to make sure the hole is still round and in spec.

I went all out and ordered a bearing puller from Tusk.
I have been wanting one for a while so this was my chance.
While I was looking for information on what to do I did find some information on the Harbor Freight variation:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13605
Look about ¾ the way down, date Friday Mar 7, 2014.
The Tusk bearing puller made short work of removing the offending bearing.
It looked like there was just a little lock tite on the shaft, kind of a flaky skin that I could scrape off with my finger nail.
It could have got there accidentally but I will check the shaft size carefully when I check the run out.


Attachments:
File comment: Bearring stuck on the crank
P1010164.JPG
P1010164.JPG [ 61.51 KiB | Viewed 5689 times ]
File comment: Tusk bearring puller in action - worked like a charm
P1010165.JPG
P1010165.JPG [ 68.62 KiB | Viewed 5689 times ]
File comment: What is it about the neet little boxes with tools? Or am I just a sucker. Nut was used on the end of the crank to protect the threads
P1040175.JPG
P1040175.JPG [ 75.73 KiB | Viewed 5689 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
I also needed a work around to get the balancer drive gear off.
I didn’t want to chisel it off, besides I’ll need to torque it back on later.
Found a few references for making a 41mm deep socket – they are not available at Lowes.
viewtopic.php?t=10357
And here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10362

I found a 1 5/8 socket at Tractor Supply for less than $8.
Some made in China forged chrome vanadium steel.
Apparently Chinese chrome vanadium is easily cut with a metal band saw.
I welded the stub on to a random socket from Harbor Freight.
It’s not perfectly aligned but it works.


Attachments:
P1040172.JPG
P1040172.JPG [ 42.55 KiB | Viewed 5687 times ]
File comment: A little impact gun action and the gear is off
P1040173.JPG
P1040173.JPG [ 54.88 KiB | Viewed 5687 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Fully, not the specifics you are asking for, but this was interesting reading on motorcycle repair.
http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm

This guy doesn’t specialize in 2 stroke repair, he is not much in to pressure testing the case although he does know the procedure.
I get the impression he is more of a Harley guy.
But some of the information is interesting and there is something to be learned.

#18 making special tools was interesting.
#84 Pistons & cylinders & rings shows how to use a ring compressor – I looked but did not find this on Hoser’s site. It shows that the ring compressor I have is OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Last one for tonight.
When I pulled the balancer out the bearing stayed in the case.
The bearing is probably OK but there is no way I am going to tear this thing this far down and not replace that bearing.

Searching the POOA site I only found one reference to pulling this bearing.
Again it was from D$Allstar
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13605
About ¼ the way down, entry on Sat Feb 15, 2014.
Is this some strange Ohio connection thing?

However D$ had the bearing come out with the balancer.
I was not so lucky.

I tried a few things that did not work.
First I filled the bearing center with grease, inserted the balancer and hit it with a rubber mallet.
The grease pushed up through the bearing like I was trying to pack it but the bearing did not move.
Next I ground a couple of large nails and tried to wedge the head under the bearing, then pry the bearing up by pushing the nails over.
This proceeded to bend the nail head where it was ground thin to fit under the bearing but the bearing did not move.
I also tried to lace tie wire around the center of the bearing but I could not get the end of the wire under the bearing.

I was contemplating heating the case with the Readdy Heater and spraying the bearing with an aerosol ‘air’ used for cleaning computer key boards.
If you hold the can upside down you get a liquid that is very cold as it evaporates.
About this time my wife is looking over my shoulder.
‘What’s the material?’ – Japanese equivalent to 356 aluminum.
‘How is it hardened?’ – Control of the cooling process to distribute alloys and impurities in the grain boundaries.
‘Did you calculate the temperature gradient that will cause the case to crack?’ – Heck no, that’s a several day CAE calculation with the shape of the case in that area.

What’s wrong? Aren’t you guys marred to a metallurgist?
Long story short, I was authorized to purchase a blind bearing puller.
I went with the one from Tusk, I have been having good luck with there stuff.
Bearing came out without a fuss.


Attachments:
File comment: Balancer bearring deep in a blind pocket
P1010166.JPG
P1010166.JPG [ 75.48 KiB | Viewed 5686 times ]
File comment: Bearing poped right out with the propper tool, note grease packed in there from my failed attempt to extracate the bearing.
P1040171.JPG
P1040171.JPG [ 48.63 KiB | Viewed 5686 times ]
File comment: Another pretty box with tools in it. I seam to have spent quite a bit and I havent bought any parts yet. Puller set covers 8 to 30mm internal shaft sizes.
P1040174.JPG
P1040174.JPG [ 60.98 KiB | Viewed 5686 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Last one for tonight.
When I pulled the balancer out the bearing stayed in the case.
The bearing is probably OK but there is no way I am going to tear this thing this far down and not replace that bearing.

Searching the POOA site I only found one reference to pulling this bearing.
Again it was from D$Allstar
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13605
About ¼ the way down, entry on Sat Feb 15, 2014.
Is this some strange Ohio connection thing?

However D$ had the bearing come out with the balancer.
I was not so lucky.

I tried a few things that did not work.
First I filled the bearing center with grease, inserted the balancer and hit it with a rubber mallet.
The grease pushed up through the bearing like I was trying to pack it but the bearing did not move.
Next I ground a couple of large nails and tried to wedge the head under the bearing, then pry the bearing up by pushing the nails over.
This proceeded to bend the nail head where it was ground thin to fit under the bearing but the bearing did not move.
I also tried to lace tie wire around the center of the bearing but I could not get the end of the wire under the bearing.

I was contemplating heating the case with the Readdy Heater and spraying the bearing with an aerosol ‘air’ used for cleaning computer key boards.
If you hold the can upside down you get a liquid that is very cold as it evaporates.
About this time my wife is looking over my shoulder.
‘What’s the material?’ – Japanese equivalent to 356 aluminum.
‘How is it hardened?’ – Control of the cooling process to distribute alloys and impurities in the grain boundaries.
‘Did you calculate the temperature gradient that will cause the case to crack?’ – Heck no, that’s a several day CAE calculation with the shape of the case in that area.

What’s wrong? Aren’t you guys marred to a metallurgist?
Long story short, I was authorized to purchase a blind bearing puller.
I went with the one from Tusk, I have been having good luck with there stuff.
Bearing came out without a fuss.



Bearing removal... remove the seals, wash the cases really good to remove all traces of oil, put the cases in the freezer let chill at least an hr longer is better, send the wife to the store to 'get something' then as you see wife drive down road heat the oven to about 300 degrees put the cases in the oven bearings facing down, in a few minutes you will hear the bearings fall out of the cases.

What happens is the bearings and cases freeze causing them to shrink then when you put them in the oven the aluminum cases expands, the frozen bearings heat slower because steel transfers heat slower than aluminum, aluminum expands faster and more than the bearing, wife can probably explain it better than me lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Too much time on my hands, so I have been thinking about what mods I might do on my head before I bolt it on.
My goals would be to improve the ability to run on pump gas (91 octane) without trying to wring out more power.
This would be a modification to the air cooled head.

I have come to the conclusion that I want to:
i) Correct the squish band so it can do its thing, 0.040” ~ 0.045” clearance at the outside edge.
ii) Modify the head volume / deck height to restore the compression ratio.
iii) Reshape the head dome to reduce the heat transfer from the air fuel / combustion gases to the head.
The main goal of these mods is to reduce the occurrence of detonation.

So, how did I come to these conclusions?
Too much reading.
I have been looking for good technical information on line.
Most of what I am finding is stuff like “My Banshee has 2000 psi compression and never knocks using Mexican pump gas”, yea right.
A lot of this information is unusable even if it is true.
I need tech information that I can translate to my Odyssey.
I finally found a site that had a list of books and some information on what type of information was in them.
http://www.briansolex.com/books-tuning.html
From this list I have Jennings and Bell.

Jennings has a lot of description about what you want but there is a lack of ‘numbers’ you could use to transfer his findings to your Engine.
To use this information you would have to do a lot of experimentation, I just have one Engine and I would like to rebuild it just once.

Bell has some hard information that can be used to predict how a particular Engine will behave.
Below I have a graph made from Bells information that predicts the limits of compression ratio vs fuel octane.

From the list above, I found a copy of Blair.
This is the type of book I was looking for.
His basic theory for detonation is to keep the compressed air / fuel below a cut off temperature during the compression stroke.
His methodology is rather complex and involves a computer program (also available for a price).
I find it entertaining that I had read about Blair on McDizzys web site.
This is just what I was looking for.

More to come.


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File comment: Data from Bell
CR data from Bell.jpg
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File comment: So with 91 octain I should be OK at 11.7:1 but stock is 6.5:1. This seams like a huge jump - not sure I belive it yet
CR graph.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
My brother and I just run avgas now. I feel it has saved us a lot of grief. My brothers machine has 170psi compression and mine is at 125psi. We have had no issues since we have switched to avgas. I blew up my brothers machine 9 times before I finally got it all right. On a side note because I am a cheap bastard I was making my own base gaskets. Bad idea. You MUST run a metal base gasket.
The first two are my machine and the next two are my brothers. Both happened the same day.

Blown cylinder gasket


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 Post subject: Re: Lee's LS Carnage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Too much time on my hands, so I have been thinking about what mods I might do on my head before I bolt it on.
My goals would be to improve the ability to run on pump gas (91 octane) without trying to wring out more power.
This would be a modification to the air cooled head.

I have come to the conclusion that I want to:
i) Correct the squish band so it can do its thing, 0.040” ~ 0.045” clearance at the outside edge.
ii) Modify the head volume / deck height to restore the compression ratio.
iii) Reshape the head dome to reduce the heat transfer from the air fuel / combustion gases to the head.
The main goal of these mods is to reduce the occurrence of detonation.

So, how did I come to these conclusions?
Too much reading.
I have been looking for good technical information on line.
Most of what I am finding is stuff like “My Banshee has 2000 psi compression and never knocks using Mexican pump gas”, yea right.
A lot of this information is unusable even if it is true.
I need tech information that I can translate to my Odyssey.
I finally found a site that had a list of books and some information on what type of information was in them.
http://www.briansolex.com/books-tuning.html
From this list I have Jennings and Bell.

Jennings has a lot of description about what you want but there is a lack of ‘numbers’ you could use to transfer his findings to your Engine.
To use this information you would have to do a lot of experimentation, I just have one Engine and I would like to rebuild it just once.

Bell has some hard information that can be used to predict how a particular Engine will behave.
Below I have a graph made from Bells information that predicts the limits of compression ratio vs fuel octane.

From the list above, I found a copy of Blair.
This is the type of book I was looking for.
His basic theory for detonation is to keep the compressed air / fuel below a cut off temperature during the compression stroke.
His methodology is rather complex and involves a computer program (also available for a price).
I find it entertaining that I had read about Blair on McDizzys web site.
This is just what I was looking for.

More to come.



Their is 2 stroke software out their to help with the head design I am pretty sure it just uses the formulas found in the Engine building books.

I think adnoh has some of the software.


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