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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:00 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hflY-i4o35E


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:01 am 
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its trying to turn over


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:43 am 
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I must of missed it?

Russ,the notes I have for the Briggs say ready to go with driver,lower frame is set at 8" from ground.I'm sure this doesnt help as you have the real deal there to help you out but thought I would add it anyway.

Nobody harassing you guys for almost killing three bikers including a little kid on the track?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:07 am 
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Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
bullnerd wrote:
I must of missed it?

Russ,the notes I have for the Briggs say ready to go with driver,lower frame is set at 8" from ground.I'm sure this doesnt help as you have the real deal there to help you out but thought I would add it anyway.

Nobody harassing you guys for almost killing three bikers including a little kid on the track?


If we wanted to be technical about it, we could have harassed the bikers. That track was supposed to be UTVs only on saturdays. The first one Shoubadaba passed clean, then the little kid swerved right in front of him! He was having low end jetting issues and it seemed like when he would turn left it would be worse.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:11 am 
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nickRNR wrote:
bullnerd wrote:
I must of missed it?

Russ,the notes I have for the Briggs say ready to go with driver,lower frame is set at 8" from ground.I'm sure this doesnt help as you have the real deal there to help you out but thought I would add it anyway.

Nobody harassing you guys for almost killing three bikers including a little kid on the track?


If we wanted to be technical about it, we could have harassed the bikers. That track was supposed to be UTVs only on saturdays. The first one Shoubadaba passed clean, then the little kid swerved right in front of him! He was having low end jetting issues and it seemed like when he would turn left it would be worse.



Fuel slosh?

What was changed since it was last run?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:19 am 
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Got it-opened my mouth too soon as usual.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:45 am 
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Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
I think it was just a jetting issue. The last time he had it to the track, it was doing the same thing and they discovered he had a bent butterfly valve. He fixed it assuming that was the issue, but still not right. They thought the fuel cell was starving it for fuel, so Peter and Doug ran to Doug's house and got another cell, hooked it up, and same issue. They were messing with low end jets, pop off springs, the kanooter valve (ha ha...i don really know much about PWC carbs other than I don't like them). By the end of the day it was better. Peter was saying the track was really the wrong place to dial it in, so next time out we are going to hit some open desert since with PWC carbs, altitude doesnt really effect jetting I guess. All I know is when they get that thing dialed in, I will be lap traffic (as long as he can keep it on the track!). There was one turn where the briggs car cleared its throat and I was wide open throttle and Rusty just ripped right past me! Got it on video, will post soon.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Crap my helmet hit the button and shut the camera off.I had alot more video then this.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:55 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reIA-63RNvE
more from the day



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:45 am 
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A little info on my problem. On the flats and right turns I runs like a top. Once I start to turn left it goes instant rich and loads up bad. Thought the popoff was set too low so we uped the pressure. Then we thought it might be the fuel cell ( custom built aluminum tank to replace the fuel safe blatter system). So it was swaped out to a proven tank. Still with the same results. My complete set up came out of Renew Awanas gen 3 car so it was a proven set up. At least I have found out that my tank is good. We are thinking it might be the left hand turn syndrome that some of the watercrafts suffer from when swapping to the super bn carbs. It's a known problem that's even noted in by carb book that came with the carb. So I got an adapter to rotate the carb 90 degrees and see if that works. Next time we will also add 2 more anti syphon layers to see if that helps as well.On the brightside it ran better at the end of the day then the begining. I will get it figured out eventually. Still had a great time and nothing broke on any of our cars so it was a good day


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:41 am 
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It's the crazy of all crazy things. It runs like a bat out of hell then even at slow speed you turn left and poofkablawww then you turn back to strait and blawwwkapoof it's back..
My gopro is mounted right above my helmet and and when i hit bumps it hits the record button, that's why my video's cut off short lol.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:55 am 
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shoubadaba wrote:
A little info on my problem. On the flats and right turns I runs like a top. Once I start to turn left it goes instant rich and loads up bad. Thought the popoff was set too low so we uped the pressure. Then we thought it might be the fuel cell ( custom built aluminum tank to replace the fuel safe blatter system). So it was swaped out to a proven tank. Still with the same results. My complete set up came out of Renew Awanas gen 3 car so it was a proven set up. At least I have found out that my tank is good. We are thinking it might be the left hand turn syndrome that some of the watercrafts suffer from when swapping to the super bn carbs. It's a known problem that's even noted in by carb book that came with the carb. So I got an adapter to rotate the carb 90 degrees and see if that works. Next time we will also add 2 more anti syphon layers to see if that helps as well.On the brightside it ran better at the end of the day then the begining. I will get it figured out eventually. Still had a great time and nothing broke on any of our cars so it was a good day


I would like to lean more about this problem if you have more info I never heard about it,
my luck when I get 1000 miles from home it will happen to me.

I run a 38mm Super BN on my 440 Pilot and never had a problem but mine is mounted vertical like like in a PWC I always thought these carbs will run at any angle?

Sure its not ignition and when you turn it pulls a wire?

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:13 pm 
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WAIT,WAIT,WAIT, STOP EVERYTHING. don't help him fix this thing. If we do we'll never be able to keep up with him.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:51 pm 
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"Sure its not ignition and when you turn it pulls a wire?"

I have zero experience compared to you guys ,but this was my first thought too.

Especially at slow speed like Halo said.Isnt that a seperate circuit in the carb than part throttle?What would effect all throttle positions?

Anyway good luck.I want to see it RUN!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:35 pm 
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That was the thought at the track as well. Peter, Doug and Rusty pulled off some panels and traced the wires out, but I guess they didnt find anything. I was working on something else, so I don't know what they came up with. I think they did rule out electrical shorting though. Will let Shoubadaba chyme in on that one.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:48 pm 
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I did some searching on left hand turn syndrome found this. http://www.factorypipe.com/t_carbtuning.php

Quote:
Carb Tuning

Accurately tuning a PWC carburetor requires a basic understanding of its functions and adhering to a few basic rules. Most importantly, you can only expect the carb to work as well as your Engine does; the performance of your carb cannot make up for a weak or worn out Engine. Another point to stress here is that you may not be able to achieve maximum performance from your watercraft simply by changing jets in the carb. A mismatch of Engine components and or porting may create a carburetion nightmare. The best advise is to use quality parts and service from reputable dealers. To achieve an accurate calibration with a carb you should adjust the tuneable circuits in the following order:

1. LOW SPEED ADJUSTER -To adjust a smooth idle
2. POP-OFF PRESSURE -Just off idle to 1/4 throttle in conjunction with the low
speed jet.
3. LOW SPEED JET -Just off idle to 1/3 throttle.
4. HIGH SPEED JET - 1/3 to 3/4 throttle.
5. HIGH SPEED ADJUSTER -3/4 to wide open throttle.

The reason for adjusting the circuits in this order is because several circuits contribute to the total fuel delivery of the carb. Changing the low speed jet for example, affects wide open throttle fuel delivery to some degree The exceptions to the rule are the low speed adjuster and the regulator portion: the low speed adjuster has no effect past 1/3 throttle. The regulator portion has no tuning effect past 1/4 throttle, although it continues to control the fuel supply.

IDLE STOP SCREW
The idle stop screw is used to adjust the idle speed (rpm) by opening or closing the throttle valve. refer to your watercraft owners manual for the correct idle speed. As a rule of thumb, adjust the idle speed to approximately 1100 rpm.

LOW SPEED ADJUSTER
The low speed adjuster is used in conjunction with the idle stop screw to adjust and maintain idle speed and smoothness. Experiment turning the low speed adjuster in and out in small increments until a smooth idle is obtained. As the idle stop screw is turned in our out to raise or lower idle speed the low speed mixture is also affected. For clarification, if the idle stop screw is turned out to lower idle speed, this action increases manifold pressure slightly and richens the low speed mixture so that a mixture adjustment may be required. The low speed adjuster is very sensitive and adjustments should be made in small increments only.

Note: Remember, the low speed adjuster is only for adjusting the idle mixture. If you use the adjuster to help get rid of a low speed hesitation, you will probably find that your Engine will load up in no wake zones, or after extended idling.

POP-OFF PRESSURE AND LOW SPEED JET
How do pop-off pressure and the low speed jet work together?
These two circuits overlap, although the low speed jet continues past 1/4 throttle where pop-off pressure has little to no effect. In general, if your pop-off is slightly too high, you can compensate by increasing the size of the low speed jet. The opposite is also true; if the low speed jet is slightly too small, you can compensate with less pop-off pressure. Once you get to the point where you think each is adjusted correctly, it's best to try varying the two to make certain you have the best combination. For example: If you have pop-off pressure of 30 psi and a 67.5 low speed jet, you should also try a pop-off of say 35 psi and a 70 low speed jet. To verify that you have the correct combination there are two things to test:

1. Throttle response should be crisp, with no hesitation.

2. Ride the boat at a constant 1/4 throttle opening for about 1 minute and then quickly open the throttle fully, there should be no hesitation and the Engine should not show signs of being loaded up. If it hesitates, it's lean; if it's loaded up, it's rich. The first test is to check pop-off pressure, the second test is checking the correctness of the low speed jet size. Take the time to ride the boat slowly and thoroughly test your jetting changes. After a jet change, it takes the Engine a few minutes of use to completely respond to the change.

When does it become necessary to adjust pop-off?
When personal watercraft come from the factory they have fairly high pop-off due to the fact that they also have somewhat restrictive air intake systems that cause the Engine to generate very high manifold pressures; the higher the manifold pressures, the higher the pop-off pressure required to properly regulate the fuel delivery to the Engine. As you modify or change your watercraft's flame arrestor to a less restrictive type you will most likely start to experience a lean hesitation caused by a decrease in manifold pressure. This change will require an adjustment in pop-off pressure to regain crisp throttle response. Because most aftermarket flame arrestors are less restrictive than stock, you will need to decrease pop-off to compensate.

The Super BN carbs that come from Mikuni America are already set up for performance applications, and come with pop-off settings lower than the carbs that come as original equipment. Pop-off pressure, (the regulator portion of the Super BN) is a tuneable component of the Super BN and works in conjunction with the low speed jet for good initial throttle response. The components that make up the regulator portion of the Super BN are:

1. Needle Valve, available in 4 sizes, 1.5, 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 (Note: Some OEM
carbs have 1.2)
2. Arm Spring, available in 4 sizes, 115gr., 95gr., 80gr. And 65 gr.
3. Arm
4. Regulator Diaphragm

The arm has a limited range of adjustment; from the arm being level with the adjacent carb surface to being bent upwards no more than .040" (1mm) above that surface. If the arm is bent upwards too much, it can cause the needle valve to be held open when the diaphragm and cover are installed. If the arm is bent down, its movement becomes limited and may not be enough to allow the needle valve to open fully.

ADJUSTING POP-OFF PRESSURE
Pop-off pressure is adjusted by replacing the arm spring with one of a different gram rating. Sometimes, in order to achieve the desired pop-off pressure, it is also necessary to change the needle valve size; keep in mind that it's always best to use the smallest needle valve size to obtain the correct pop-off pressure.

MEASURING POP-OFF PRESSURE
You can measure pop-off pressure with a "pop-off" pump, available from Mikuni through your dealer.

CHECKING POP-OFF WITH A POP-OFF PUMP
1. Attach the pump to the fuel inlet nipple.
2. Cover, or in some way plug the fuel return nipple.
3. Remove the regulator diaphragm to observe the needle valve.
4. During testing, it is important to obtain consistent readings. To accomplish
this, it is necessary to keep the needle valve wet. Use WD-40 or something
similar to wet the needle valve. Note: Don't use gasoline because of the fire
hazard. Protect your eyes from the spray when the needle pops open.
5. Pressurize the carb with the pump until the needle valve pops open, being
careful to note the indicated pressure. Test the valve 3 times to assure an
accurate reading.

An indication that your pop-off needs to be adjusted is a lean hesitation when you open the throttle from idle; in the extreme, the Engine may even die. It is much easier to detect a lean pop-off than it is a rich one, so it is wise to adjust your pop-off until you get it too lean and then back up until the lean hesitation disappears.

Note: It is recommended that you do not use too large a needle valve for your
application. Many tuners recommend using 2.3 or 2.5 needle valve in all cases. Actually, we recommend using the smallest needle valve that gives you the correct pop-off pressure for your Engine. A 1.5 needle valve can flow the maximum amount of fuel that the Super BN can pump, so the only reason to use a larger needle valve is to obtain the correct needle valve and arm spring combination (pop-off) for your watercraft.

HIGH SPEED JET/THROTTLE POSITION AND JETTING
The high speed jet begins contributing fuel at about 3/8 throttle, overlapping the low speed jet. The high speed jet is the primary tuning component from ½ to 3/4 throttle. As you have probably noticed, tuning circuit operations are denoted in fractions of throttle openings.. the reason for this is simple: Carb jetting does not relate to Engine rpm or the boat's speed, it only recognizes how far the throttle has been opened; each circuit of the carb responds in turn. This is why it's very important, when trying to diagnose a carb problem, that you identify at which throttle opening the problem occurs, in order to adjust the appropriate circuit. The procedure for testing for the correct high speed jet size is the same as for the low speed, except that you should now hold the throttle at a constant ½ open for one minute, then quickly open the throttle fully to check Engine response. If the Engine hesitates, the carb is lean. If the Engine takes a second or two to clear out and then accelerate, the carb is too rich. In either case, make the appropriate jet change and do the complete test again.

HIGH SPEED ADJUSTER
The high speed adjuster is the last circuit to adjust. It primarily controls fuel delivery from 3/4 throttle to wide open throttle. Turning the screw clockwise reduces fuel flow, counter clockwise increases fuel flow. The maximum fuel flow is achieved at three turns out from closed. To test the high speed adjuster it is recommended that you start with a fresh set of spark plugs to get quicker plug readings. Unless you have an exhaust gas temperature gauge, you will have to rely on plug readings. You will need to be in an area where you can hold the throttle wide open for several minutes (Factory Pipe suggests that you only do this for about 30 seconds, longer times with a lean setting could cause Engine damage) then chop the throttle and stop the Engine just prior to removing the plugs to read them. Ideally, you're looking for a nice brown color on the electrode Another indicator of proper adjustment is a maximum rpm reading on a tachometer. If the carb is lean or rich, it won't pull as high an rpm reading as when it's right on.

PERFORMANCE TIPS
The "Left Turn Syndrome"
You will find in all instances that your watercraft will turn more easily to the right than to the left. The reasons are basically simple. First, Engine torque constantly places pressure on the hull to turn right. If your Engine's performance is marginal, you can notice a dramatic falloff in power in a hard turn. This power falloff can't always be blamed on the Engine, being over-propped can also cause the Engine to slow enough to fall off its power peak. An Engine with a peaky power curve is especially susceptible to a very dramatic power loss in a hard left turn. Most recently, with the increase of Sport and Runabout racing, there has been a marked improvement in hull design with a dramatic increase in "G" forces encountered while turning: over 2.5 G's. In some instances such a hard turn can cause momentary loss of power due to fuel starvation in the carbs. Jetting changes cannot correct this situation, the best solution is to rotate the mounting of the carbs 90 deg, so that their throttle shafts are perpendicular to the crankshaft axis rather that parallel. To date, this solution to the problem has been 100% successful.


Fuel Dripping From The Inner Venturi At Idle
This situation occurs periodically and is easy to cure. What causes this problem is a combination of two things. First, low pop-off pressure (due to installation of a 2.5 needle valve with a light spring pressure) together with an Engine that has substantial vibration at idle. The Engine vibration causes the needle valve to leak, which causes the Engine to run even rougher. You can view this occurrence by carefully looking into the throat of the carb at idle, you will be able to see fuel dripping from the inner venturi. In this same way you can also check to see that the problem is corrected. The cure for the problem is to increase pop-off pressure until the dripping stops.

Engine Hesitation When Accelerating After a High Speed Deceleration
You may find it desirable to increase the number of anti-siphon valves (part# BN34/107), If you ride very fast and find that you have a noticeable stumble when reopening the throttle after a long, high speed deceleration. This is caused by excess fuel in the carb. The Engine revs fairly high while decelerating, but it uses very little fuel. The fuel pump still pulses hard, but there is no demand for the fuel. A small amount of fuel will overfill the fuel chamber, leak through the high speed circuit and get deposited on top of the closed throttle valve. This fuel causes a momentary rich condition when the throttle is reopened. The solution is to use one or two additional anti-siphon valves. Never use more than two extra, and recheck your calibration after installing any extra valves; in some cases extra valves can adversely affect throttle response.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Nice job Hoser!that's good news.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:25 pm 
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I think it has more to do with his pop off and jetting than the left hand turn syndrome. It does it from a dead stop and just cruizing around at like 5mph, not pulling any g forces.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:26 pm 
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nickRNR wrote:
I think it has more to do with his pop off and jetting than the left hand turn syndrome. It does it from a dead stop and just cruizing around at like 5mph, not pulling any g forces.


It ran and worked before now its a problem? That sounds more like a maintenance issue to me hopefully its resolved soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Shouldn't be anything with the Engine its all new inside. New sleave with new 87mm piston. New rod all new bearings and seals. I installed a brand new set of reeds and a new stator. Just plain wired to me. We thought it might be a qbind in the front causing extra drag and strain on the Engine but it rolled find turning left and right. Gonna try carb rotation and check out all my wiring. If carb doesn't work ill desire the whole car. If that doesn't work the old Engine will be going back in


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:58 pm 
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I think it was actually doing the same thing last time. It had a bent butterfly valve. Rusty replaced it when he got the car home. He went to the track thinking the issue was fixed, but the result was what happened saturday. It is definately strange. It will get solved one way or another.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:33 am 
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Call Renni ask him?


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:26 am 
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Hey Rusty, any updates on your buggy.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:54 am 
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Yeah I picked up my adapter the other day also went up to peters compound yesterday and took my carbs apart and both of the fuel filters in them where clogged with crap and the return chamber had a ball of crap in it. We think it was acting like a check ball causing under left turns the return line to clog and pour fuel into the Engine. Got it ready for the next test day. I have 2 carbs and my adapter ready to go to try a bunch of different things if the clean out doesn't smoothe it out.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:01 am 
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were thinking about milestone this sat.


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