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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
aHH, GREAT IDEA! Thanks Speedchaser, that I can and will do for sure.I got a crank from this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) that needs a rebuild, got time?
Lapped the side cases tonight, torqued the clutch plates in, double checked the trans and then found I was missing the right side case gasket.Porject stalled till I get 1 in.I prefer to use a gasket where it is designed to have 1, not RTV for sure. In the meantime I will grab a file and sand the edges on the jug base as well too.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:07 am 
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I got 2 gaskets sets in from Ebay seller bikerchick so I re assembled the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) with the cases halves re-lapped and installed the top end.Leak test failed again. As per SPEEDCHASER I took the jug back off and lapped it again as per Speedchaser method of using the file with the 400 wet sand paper which worked very well indeed.Re installed and leak test failed again.I had to do this for hrs as the jug was not flat on the bottom surfaces.Good time to mention that motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) rebuilding is a science for sure and you MUST CHECK everything prior to assembly.My first Tecate motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) had all new jug that was OEM so that surface was flat, and the cases were a matching set, unlike what we have on this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )).CHECK EVERYTHING before assembly.I have lapped the jug for hrs, the leaks are down to just a small leak under the exhaust flange, I had to break for the night but will continue to lapp that area today to finish this up. I also ordered a new head OEM from Cheapcycleparts.com so I am looking forward to using it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Update-the jug would not seal on the cases at all.I tried everything in the world. I took the jug off and tried another jug, same. I even tryed to double gasket it.It held but failed the leak test.After a total strip down Of the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) the case halves are not mating well. I went back to another set of case halves I had and assembled them. I checked the dowels to make sure they are good, and assembled the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )).Leaked again.I took this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) down to the cases and have been lapping them as well to get the surface flat.I have 1 area of deviation-0.008mm. i HAVE BEEN LAPPING for hrs, these cases are driving me up the wall. I took the cases to 4 local machine shops, all of them have no way to attach the cases to there machine to check/cut the surface flat for me.I was told by 2 to use this:

http://www.rshughes.com/products/078143_26805.html

The shops tell me the amount of deviation I have is very very slim and this product is well known and used by many in the drag race motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) rebuilding circles.I have always been taught the surfaces must be as flat as possible, and to NEVER use any type of epoxy/sealer on a jug, but this product is made specifically for cylinders and I do not think I will ever get them perfectly flat at the present time. I have a fresh FTZ racing jug with fresh sleeve 71.50 mm wiseco with pretty extensive porting on the exhaust to install in the jug with a new head OEM as well. I am trying to get some imput off the board as far as the product is concerned and are planning on lapping the surface some more tonight.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Location: hole above ground
Mudbogger wrote:
Update-the jug would not seal on the cases at all.I tried everything in the world. I took the jug off and tried another jug, same. I even tryed to double gasket it.It held but failed the leak test.After a total strip down Of the Engine the case halves are not mating well. I went back to another set of case halves I had and assembled them. I checked the dowels to make sure they are good, and assembled the Engine.Leaked again.I took this Engine down to the cases and have been lapping them as well to get the surface flat.I have 1 area of deviation-0.008mm. i HAVE BEEN LAPPING for hrs, these cases are driving me up the wall. I took the cases to 4 local machine shops, all of them have no way to attach the cases to there machine to check/cut the surface flat for me.I was told by 2 to use this:

http://www.rshughes.com/products/078143_26805.html" .".." ."..

The shops tell me the amount of deviation I have is very very slim and this product is well known and used by many in the drag race Engine rebuilding circles.I have always been taught the surfaces must be as flat as possible, and to NEVER use any type of epoxy/sealer on a jug, but this product is made specifically for cylinders and I do not think I will ever get them perfectly flat at the present time. I have a fresh FTZ racing jug with fresh sleeve 71.50 mm wiseco with pretty extensive porting on the exhaust to install in the jug with a new head OEM as well. I am trying to get some imput off the board as far as the product is concerned and are planning on lapping the surface some more tonight.



take some pic's or send them to me I will lap them on my surface plate or on my lapping table


SpeedChaser :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
I'll strip them of the bearings and such and send them right over Speedchaser!!Thanks. I hope I have not lapped them too too much. I have a crank as well, can I send that over too.I don't care how long that takes, the cases are more important to be honest.

THANKS SO SO MUCH!!!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Mudbogger wrote:
I'll strip them of the bearings and such and send them right over Speedchaser!!Thanks. I hope I have not lapped them too too much. I have a crank as well, can I send that over too.I don't care how long that takes, the cases are more important to be honest.

THANKS SO SO MUCH!!!!!


send bolts to bolt the two halves together

do you still have the old case halve may need that too

speed


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:30 am 
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Location: Chicago
Wow it must be really off, if your having trouble getting the cases to seal on the bench I would never try any kind of sealer to seal them sooner or later the sealer will fail and you will be screwed, remember if they machined these cases right at the factory and then lapped them they should seal without gaskets they cant afford to run a production parts at those tight of tolerances so they use gaskets to ensure they seal, cases not matching up good enough to seal is not a new problem.

Cases that split the other direction like on a banshee bottom end or snowmobiles don't use gaskets they spend enough time and use the right machining that these cases seal without gaskets, they do use a sealer like yamabond on the cases so they cant weep but for the most part will seal metal to metal.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:51 am 
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Location: New Jersey
Hi hoser. The cases sealed fine, the cylinder base gasket surfaces are the issue on this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Speed I will send the cases I have been lapping currently with a spare set as well yo see if you can get a set to match well using any of the 4 I will send.
Now I checked my table this morning I use to lap cases. Somewhere along the way it must have been hit because it is not level. Guess I figured out that mystery. Dunno what happened here but that has be some of my issues. I know 1 of these case halves is screwed up due to this.
Speed- cases will go out tomorrow to you and thanks for the help to you and Hoser. I also have a feeling mabye I should recheck the dowels as well to make sure they were perfectly round as well. Big time learning experience for me which is cool.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:58 am 
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Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Hi hoser. The cases sealed fine, the cylinder base gasket surfaces are the issue on this motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Speed I will send the cases I have been lapping currently with a spare set as well yo see if you can get a set to match well using any of the 4 I will send.
Now I checked my table this morning I use to lap cases. Somewhere along the way it must have been hit because it is not level. Guess I figured out that mystery. Dunno what happened here but that has be some of my issues. I know 1 of these case halves is screwed up due to this.
Speed- cases will go out tomorrow to you and thanks for the help to you and Hoser. I also have a feeling mabye I should recheck the dowels as well to make sure they were perfectly round as well. Big time learning experience for me which is cool.


Yup I understand the area your talking about and that is the same thing I am talking about bad use of terminology sorry, all mechanical connections should seal on that Engine as I described some you get are perfect and some are plain junk not sure if its a operator error when they are machined that is the problem, worn tooling or shop conditions that cause it, like machining hotter or colder than normal parts then when the temp of the parts stabilizes they are no longer the same size, I have seen coolant changes on machines change parts dimensions in a production environment.

I bet they seal perfectly when speedchaser is done.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:57 pm 
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It is amazing what Speed can do. Also the shelf hardening of the cases I would have thought should really match the cases well but in this cases it did not. I from reading all of the CSI information here understood cases, seals and tolerances but after this understand it is far greater then I had realized.
I am sure with Speed's skills they will be flat. Now I will have to figure out if the material removed is too much for the gasket to make up for. OEM is around 0.047 - 0.050 mm depending on makes. Do I have to worry about _nbalancing the stroke, compression if too much material is removed?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
speedchaser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
I'll strip them of the bearings and such and send them right over Speedchaser!!Thanks. I hope I have not lapped them too too much. I have a crank as well, can I send that over too.I don't care how long that takes, the cases are more important to be honest.

THANKS SO SO MUCH!!!!!


send bolts to bolt the two halves together

do you still have the old case halve may need that too

speed


Jeff I left the cases as is - I did not want to take them apart till you inspected them so the new bearings and seals are still in the case halfes that are bolted together. The others original halves are enclosed with these- the bearings, seals are junk in them.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Mudbogger wrote:
speedchaser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
I'll strip them of the bearings and such and send them right over Speedchaser!!Thanks. I hope I have not lapped them too too much. I have a crank as well, can I send that over too.I don't care how long that takes, the cases are more important to be honest.

THANKS SO SO MUCH!!!!!


send bolts to bolt the two halves together

do you still have the old case halve may need that too

speed


Jeff I left the cases as is - I did not want to take them apart till you inspected them so the new bearings and seals are still in the case halfes that are bolted together. The others original halves are enclosed with these- the bearings, seals are junk in them.


Does the bottom of the cylinder need a skim cut made to ensure its flat?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:26 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Ahh, my thoughts exactly Hoser!!! that is why I sent it out to Speed as well today. I lapped the bottom mating surface with a file wrapped in paper but I think it is best it is checked out.Seeing as I royally screwed up the cases.Speed, you may have 2 add some material on the 1 case half and re-lapp it, if this can even be done.My table is way off and a quick look 1 can see the amount of material missing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:39 pm 
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well it showed up and I had time while the mill was running

the Engine case was out about .015 of square or perpendicular to the crank shaft
and bottom of the cylinder was Convex .015

But not any more so you need to check deck height and squish clearance



SpeedChaser :-)


Attachments:
File comment: putting layout die on top of cylinder
DSCN4025.jpg
DSCN4025.jpg [ 497.74 KiB | Viewed 10384 times ]
File comment: lapped up quick
DSCN4029.jpg
DSCN4029.jpg [ 393.33 KiB | Viewed 3923 times ]
File comment: base of cylinder was way out
DSCN4030.jpg
DSCN4030.jpg [ 371.04 KiB | Viewed 3923 times ]
DSCN4032.jpg.tmp.jpg
DSCN4032.jpg.tmp.jpg [ 368.99 KiB | Viewed 3923 times ]
File comment: high in the center lower to the out side
DSCN4034.jpg.tmp.jpg
DSCN4034.jpg.tmp.jpg [ 390.79 KiB | Viewed 3923 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:39 pm 
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next


Attachments:
File comment: setup motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) case angel plate
indicated in

DSCN4037.jpg
DSCN4037.jpg [ 454.22 KiB | Viewed 3922 times ]
File comment: it look like the new case half that you bolted to had a lower deck height then you started to lap it on a angle
DSCN4039.jpg
DSCN4039.jpg [ 408.6 KiB | Viewed 3922 times ]
File comment: took it all part and look at the inside surfaces of the case half's
looked great you did a nice job

DSCN4042.jpg.tmp.jpg
DSCN4042.jpg.tmp.jpg [ 498.32 KiB | Viewed 3922 times ]
File comment: reassembled and indicated in and put it on the precision grinder
well after that i should be flat to .0001

DSCN4045.jpg
DSCN4045.jpg [ 363.39 KiB | Viewed 3922 times ]
DSCN4050.jpg
DSCN4050.jpg [ 350.8 KiB | Viewed 3922 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:52 pm 
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just a note Mudbogger the first thing I did was put the cylinder on the Engine case and it rock like it was not flat or some thing was holding it up so when it that bad it will take forever to lap that out but can be done

I will measure up the case bolt locations so i know where they are for the one that need to be fixed it looks like they snapped off a tap in there





SpeedChaser :-)


Attachments:
File comment: left a witness mark
DSCN4053.jpg
DSCN4053.jpg [ 296.25 KiB | Viewed 3919 times ]
File comment: setup cylinder up in lathe
DSCN4054.jpg
DSCN4054.jpg [ 369.34 KiB | Viewed 3919 times ]
File comment: indicated the cylinder in
DSCN4057.jpg
DSCN4057.jpg [ 377.3 KiB | Viewed 3919 times ]
File comment: man that looks like it spinning fast

but that only about 400 rpm

DSCN4059.jpg
DSCN4059.jpg [ 371.91 KiB | Viewed 3919 times ]
File comment: left a witness mark
DSCN4063.jpg
DSCN4063.jpg [ 268.56 KiB | Viewed 3919 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:13 pm 
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wow, DAM! THANK YOU! I just got that cylinder back from a company called US CHROME and very upsdet indeed.I would think they would check the surfaces on the jugs before doing any process, but I assumed instead of asking. Speed, do you think I caused the variances in the base surfaces of the jug by going with the file and paper route? I must tell you, when I put the cases together and installed the jug I noticed as well the rocking of the jug on them, but my inexperience in rebuilding left me thinking I could lapp that away. I knew it was not correct, but did not understand how it needed to be fixed properly-I do now!
Now squish and such, the amount taken off is really going to be effected I think.A OEM base gasket is 0.047mm thick, the thickest I have found is a WISECO which is 0.053mm before torquing.I am curious to see if the gasket has to be increased on either end of the jug to get the squish in right.I have not checked squish in some time.
Again, thanks so so much for your time and free schooling to me and the others here.I could not do what I do with out you!! By the way, what do you think would cause the cases to be so out? I checked the dowels, they were in good shape, shouldn't the cases all be within some tolerances?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Mudbogger wrote:
wow, DAM! THANK YOU! I just got that cylinder back from a company called US CHROME and very upsdet indeed.I would think they would check the surfaces on the jugs before doing any process, but I assumed instead of asking. Speed, do you think I caused the variances in the base surfaces of the jug by going with the file and paper route? I must tell you, when I put the cases together and installed the jug I noticed as well the rocking of the jug on them, but my inexperience in rebuilding left me thinking I could lapp that away. I knew it was not correct, but did not understand how it needed to be fixed properly-I do now!
Now squish and such, the amount taken off is really going to be effected I think.A OEM base gasket is 0.047mm thick, the thickest I have found is a WISECO which is 0.053mm before torquing.I am curious to see if the gasket has to be increased on either end of the jug to get the squish in right.I have not checked squish in some time.
Again, thanks so so much for your time and free schooling to me and the others here.I could not do what I do with out you!! By the way, what do you think would cause the cases to be so out? I checked the dowels, they were in good shape, shouldn't the cases all be within some tolerances?



I think the case half's are machine as a match set or one of them where lapped before or machined down
now the cylinder most shops don't use the base surface to machine off of they use the top surface
I would not think 400 grit paper would not crown it like it was in less you did it for hours and a few beer later :-)

well the quick way to check squish is to use some oil base clay and stick it on the top of the piston then bolt the head on.
then turn the Engine over piston up then down
pull the head off and see how thick the clay is this is not the perfect way to do it but you will get the just of it .

speed

PS what is the crank shaft for ? need to be rebuilt ?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Thanks for the explaination Speed and yes the crank needs a rebuild if/when you can.PLEASE pm me so I can pay you. AGAIN, my sincere thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am 
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SPEED - It is a pleasure to see the work of a professional!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for the explaination Speed and yes the crank needs a rebuild if/when you can.PLEASE pm me so I can pay you. AGAIN, my sincere thanks!


Wonder if the cylinder problem was because someone over torqued the shit out of the cylinder studs?

You want me to send the two Kawisucki cylinders I have here to speed and have him check them? I don't have the taper cone thingie he has so cant put them in my lathe here.

The one cylinder is NEW so its probably ok but send the old one before its sent to be replated?

Nice work speed, I also have another Kawisucki crank to send for inspection think the big end bearing might be rusted.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Yes Hoser if Speed does not mind send the old 1 please. The new jug should be fine. The jug Speed has was purchased used off Ebay buyt as posted earlier here - I assumed when the jug is sent for replating they check at least the head side for tolerances you know what I mean?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Mudbogger wrote:
Yes Hoser if Speed does not mind send the old 1 please. The new jug should be fine. The jug Speed has was purchased used off Ebay buyt as posted earlier here - I assumed when the jug is sent for replating they check at least the head side for tolerances you know what I mean?



I have the other case half put together

you what me to match them up
i weld up the bad area for the chain gard

speed


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Oh Please YES !!! THANK YOU!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:17 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
hoser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for the explaination Speed and yes the crank needs a rebuild if/when you can.PLEASE pm me so I can pay you. AGAIN, my sincere thanks!


Wonder if the cylinder problem was because someone over torqued the shit out of the cylinder studs?

You want me to send the two Kawisucki cylinders I have here to speed and have him check them? I don't have the taper cone thingie he has so cant put them in my lathe here.

The one cylinder is NEW so its probably ok but send the old one before its sent to be replated?

Nice work speed, I also have another Kawisucki crank to send for inspection think the big end bearing might be rusted.


Here is a great time to again speak about the evil's of Ebay. I got the jug off Ebay for basicly shipping-as Hoser states the jug was after this CSI on it torqued too much and it warped.I went back and viewed the suction and it never claims to have been warped.Hoser says this all the time, you got to be careful what you buy off Ebay and research the item-don't be like me and have to go through this CRAPOLA!!


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