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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Hello,
I've been reading these forums for a while, and in an attempt to reclaim a portion of my youth, I spejt some money on an not quite running FL250 which came with a parts buggie. It was sold with no spark, and having worked on a few engines over the years, I figured 'how hard can it be' and went to work on it. I wound up solving the spark problem (bad/broken wiring), and brought the buggie back to life, but I still cannot get it to really 'go'. It idles fine (maybe a lil fast), has good compression (150 warm), I'm using the miniki(sp?) aftermarket pump, tried br9es plug gapped correctly, tried br8es plug, uni air filter (oiled), aftermarket coil, honda CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) box, nkg boot, and stock exhaust. There is an exhaust leak at the head, cant seem to get that metal seal to fit in the pipe correctly. I took the carb apart, re-set my float level, gave it a good cleaning, and put it back together with the stock parts. I did a pressure check, sealing the intake and exhaust, gave it both + and - test, passed both.

The closest I got to it running 'right' was when I figured out my spark plug was gapped wrong, so I took it out and put a fresh one in with the proper gap set, and it opened up for a bit. I took it for a short ride down the street, and it was really running well. I hit a few bumps, and all of a sudden it started feeling sluggish and lacked power again. Even with new plugs, havent been able to get back to that point. Plenty of low end power, but when I pull the throttle it seems like it wants to go, but just wont. This lil 2stroke Engine looks so simple, its killing me what I could be missing.

Thanks for reading. Suggestions welcomed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Joker0370 wrote:
Hello,
I've been reading these forums for a while, and in an attempt to reclaim a portion of my youth, I spejt some money on an not quite running FL250 which came with a parts buggie. It was sold with no spark, and having worked on a few engines over the years, I figured 'how hard can it be' and went to work on it. I wound up solving the spark problem (bad/broken wiring), and brought the buggie back to life, but I still cannot get it to really 'go'. It idles fine (maybe a lil fast), has good compression (150 warm), I'm using the miniki(sp?) aftermarket pump, tried br9es plug gapped correctly, tried br8es plug, uni air filter (oiled), aftermarket coil, honda CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) box, nkg boot, and stock exhaust. There is an exhaust leak at the head, cant seem to get that metal seal to fit in the pipe correctly. I took the carb apart, re-set my float level, gave it a good cleaning, and put it back together with the stock parts. I did a pressure check, sealing the intake and exhaust, gave it both + and - test, passed both.

The closest I got to it running 'right' was when I figured out my spark plug was gapped wrong, so I took it out and put a fresh one in with the proper gap set, and it opened up for a bit. I took it for a short ride down the street, and it was really running well. I hit a few bumps, and all of a sudden it started feeling sluggish and lacked power again. Even with new plugs, havent been able to get back to that point. Plenty of low end power, but when I pull the throttle it seems like it wants to go, but just wont. This lil 2stroke Engine looks so simple, its killing me what I could be missing.

Thanks for reading. Suggestions welcomed.


Is it the fl250 with points ?? If so check the gap.
If it doesn't have the points make sure the pick-up coil is at the right gap from flywheel.
Check to make sure your choke is not on and that the plunger is seated in the carb when the choke cable is in the closed position. Check to make sure your high tension lead is not corroded at the sparkplug cap.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2865
Location: East Peoria IL
My guess is your exhaust is plugged up. Common on the old 250s. I bought a DG pipe for mine. It would take a basketball to plug it up, well ok a tennis ball. I would loosen the exhaust by the manifold and see if it gets better when the throttle is opened up. can't tell mush just putting around. Warning the DG will make you ears bleed.

I have heard of guys tossing the exhaust in a fire to burn up the carbon deposit.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
No points, CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition). I will check the gap. Coil, wire, and boot all new. I'm hesitant buying a new exhaust, but I guess it wouldn't hurt in the long run. Worse comes worse I'll have another pipe for the other Engine when I get it running.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Welcome to PilotOdyssey.com

I wonder if when you hit the bump if it bent the tabs on the float readjusting the float level, NOT something that should happen I have seen FL250's take a beating and it never upset the float setting, how ever I use to unload my 83 ATC250R from the back of a pickup by pulling it out fast enough it would land on all 3 wheels when it hit the ground, a few times it affected the float level and I had to readjust.

What about other things that might have been affected by a bump, shit in the gas tank stirred up and plugging the filter, wiring harness issues?


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Joliet, Illinois
What about your tank? Was it clean and rust free? As was mentioned earlier, you may have dislodged some debris causing your fuel delivery to be interrupted.....was the carb and jets clean? Airfilter?



Good luck and welcome to the site


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Just put a brand new uni filter on, and replaced the gas tank, old one got a pin hole leak. New one was really clean inside. Cleaned the carb a few times. Jets all looked clean. Can't hurt to try again. I've been looking up ways to clean the old exhaust and pricing out dg replacements. The bump I hit was like a large tire rut, nothing crazy. I took a video at idle, would that help? I'll try to get one with it up on jacket ands next time.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Joker0370 wrote:
Just put a brand new uni filter on, and replaced the gas tank, old one got a pin hole leak. New one was really clean inside. Cleaned the carb a few times. Jets all looked clean. Can't hurt to try again. I've been looking up ways to clean the old exhaust and pricing out dg replacements. The bump I hit was like a large tire rut, nothing crazy. I took a video at idle, would that help? I'll try to get one with it up on jacket ands next time.


Pics and vids always a good idea.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Joker0370 wrote:
Just put a brand new uni filter on, and replaced the gas tank, old one got a pin hole leak. New one was really clean inside. Cleaned the carb a few times. Jets all looked clean. Can't hurt to try again. I've been looking up ways to clean the old exhaust and pricing out dg replacements. The bump I hit was like a large tire rut, nothing crazy. I took a video at idle, would that help? I'll try to get one with it up on jacket ands next time.


Is it possible that the clutching is so far off it is up-shifting too fast and the Engine cant pull out of the bog, I have seen stock drive clutches where one or two springs broke and it would start rolling just above idle.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA


I'll try get another of it bogging out on some stands. I was focusing on the air bubbles in the gas line, trying to figure out if that is normal. Seems to be getting plenty of fuel looking at the return line. At the end i gave it some gas with the ebrake on.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Joker0370 wrote:


I'll try get another of it bogging out on some stands. I was focusing on the air bubbles in the gas line, trying to figure out if that is normal. Seems to be getting plenty of fuel looking at the return line. At the end i gave it some gas with the ebrake on.


As long as you have a few inches of gas line that is full of gas above the carb your ok I think you will always see the bubbles, soon as the float for the carb opens then gas will run in from the full line above the carb.

When you gave it the gas it looks like its trying to take off not much above idle.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of Engine movement ??
Its almost like something is not true.
Anyways I think the same as Hoser on the air bubble in gas line thing.
You got good fuel flow, I can see that in the gas tank vid.
Did you check to make sure that the choke is truly closed ??


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
canadian oddy wrote:
Is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of Engine movement ??
Its almost like something is not true.
Anyways I think the same as Hoser on the air bubble in gas line thing.
You got good fuel flow, I can see that in the gas tank vid.
Did you check to make sure that the choke is truly closed ??


Engines shake a lot on the FL250's they had no Engine balancer like the Pilot and the FL350, even my ATC250R had a mechanical Engine balancer. If the rubber Engine mounts are broken they will allow the Engine to move even more. Honda was able to get by without the balancer system on the 250 by use of a well engineered Engine mounting system.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
I figured I have the idle set a lil high as I'm just going by what looks smooth and sounds good. Hardly scientific, but eh. Need to get a small Engine tach. I'm sure I had one years ago, but god knows where it went. The Oddy isn't at my house (I live in the city, no place here to store it where it wouldn't get stolen), so I have to wait till I get a day off and drive out to my parents house. They are storing it. Told them its for their grandchildren to use, that's mostly true :) My pop seems to think its carb related, but I wanted to get some other minds in on this, and try a few different things next time I go to work on it. I'm making a list off the different post I get. I'm thinking i'll take the carb off again, give it some carb cleaner again, re-check the float level, make sure the choke is seating properly, give the jets another once over, put it all back together and test that. Then i'll take off the exhaust, see if there is a good way to clean that, and get it sealed, and try that. Speaking of which, is there a good way to seal the exhaust? There are a couple of post about using silicone where the info is just leads to dead links. I tried to get that metal seal in, but that thing is a bitch. Any tricks to get that to work, or just try something different?

After I get that, I'll try to rig up my phone so that I can get a video of it running either on jack stands or around the yard. Interestingly, the thing shakes a lot more than the video shows. The video kind of evened It out and gives it more of harmonic wave look.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Ok, so today I sealed the exhaust using valve packing material, cleaned the carb, reset the ar screw to two turns out, and took a test ride with no results. Working on a theory, I took tge plug out, and r gapped it from 6mm to 4mm. At 4mm, I saw a lot more power, but ran into another problem. It would go, but I would get it going and it would intermittently lose power, then get it back, then lose it, then get it back again. So, first question, why would I need to gap the plug so small? Weak ignition system? And second, would the losing power be connected to this? I feel like I'm really close to hunting this gremlin down.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Joker0370 wrote:
Ok, so today I sealed the exhaust using valve packing material, cleaned the carb, reset the ar screw to two turns out, and took a test ride with no results. Working on a theory, I took tge plug out, and r gapped it from 6mm to 4mm. At 4mm, I saw a lot more power, but ran into another problem. It would go, but I would get it going and it would intermittently lose power, then get it back, then lose it, then get it back again. So, first question, why would I need to gap the plug so small? Weak ignition system? And second, would the losing power be connected to this? I feel like I'm really close to hunting this gremlin down.


That sounds like a short in the wiring to me. Does it miss or just die and then come back on??
Did you check the end of the plug wire right at the boot ??


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
This might sound stupid but it happened to me. The boot that fits on the plug does it need the screw tip on the plug or off ?? If it needs the tip on the plug and it is not there it arcs out.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Yeah, I have the plug tips on. I'm half tempted to order a new honda coil and replace the aftermarket one. I hate to just throw parts at it, but there isnt much to the spark system here. I'm wondering if the coil is good enough for idle, but falls short under load. But its all guessing to me. I'm thinking I should focus on the ignition right now.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Joker0370 wrote:
Yeah, I have the plug tips on. I'm half tempted to order a new honda coil and replace the aftermarket one. I hate to just throw parts at it, but there isnt much to the spark system here. I'm wondering if the coil is good enough for idle, but falls short under load. But its all guessing to me. I'm thinking I should focus on the ignition right now.


You got anyone around you that you can borrow parts from just to try ???
Do the cheapest way.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Well, i'my happy to report success! I ordered stator coils and waited for them I'm the mail. I stripped down an old stator assembly and prepped it, then rebuilt it when the coils came in. Oddly enough, the add I saw on eBay said that there was a bad batch of exciter coils sold in the past that would test well and idle well but would cut out under load. I swapped my stator with my freshly rebuilt one, set spark gap to stock, and found new life in this old machine.

Just a recap: Engine would start and idle, but no power on the top end. Found that decreasing the gap gave more power, but still not right. Took a chance on rebuilding stator with new coils, now running strong.

Thanks for all the help.


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