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 Post subject: Crummy compression FL250
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:13 pm 
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Posts: 37
Hi all-

I have a 1982 FL250 that has never run over 20-25 mph

I had the carb rebuilt and replaced the fuel lines, fuel filter and check valve. Air valve is set to 1 1/2 turns but no matter where I set it I always have to run with choke on or it won't move at all. Plug has a nice brown color and I'm running 32:1 fuel oil with a high quality oil. I set the idle screw flush with the carb body because I was not able to find any info on how that should be adjusted.

I had a Honda mechanic go over it but the best he was able to achieve was what it does currently. It sputters when it runs so the power curve is never smooth.

I was curious about the compression, so I got a compression tester and found that I was only getting 70 PSI which is quite crappy from what I read. Should be in the 110-150 range, no?

I also noticed that my muffler is only held in with one spring.

So, what do you recommend I do next?

-Pull the head and check the gasket?
-Could a worn piston ring cause compression problems?
-Should there be a gasket between the muffler and the block?

Anything else I should check/replace to track down the problem?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Welcome new guy.
First things first. If you need a manual you can get a free PDF download of it here: http://oddatv.com/fl250-fl350-factory-manuals/
I would say that the Engine needs a rebuild if you got 70psi compression -- it's done.
Take it apart and post some pics here. You will most likely need rings.
It also sounds like the carb needs to be cleaned and looked at close. Make sure all passages clear, float level set and float valve clear and clean. Also check the floats to make sure not full of fuel because they may have a hole in them. You can check that by just shaking them and listening for any sloshing fuel sound. This don't happen often but you check this stuff during a re&re. No sense posting a procedure on how to set it yet but make sure you have the stock jets in it and needle clip set in middle position.
Exhaust should have a gasket and two springs holding on the pipe.
Check the output of the fuel pump: 4.5oz in 10sec approx if your machine has an aftermarket electric starter. If all you got is the pull start you won't be able to check this.
Check your belt width. Is it within the specs ??


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Hello thanks.

I just cleaned and rebuilt the carb. The needle had fallen out and I hadn't noticed (oops), so I replaced it with the one from the rebuild kit and set the needle clip in the middle. Now it runs even slower, but idles really nicely. I didn't hear any sloshing in the floats

Here is a video of it running: https://youtu.be/Pp1-qT_xNL8

It looks like I have decent flow out of the fuel pump. Not sure how to check if my belt width is within spec but you can see it on the video.

I do notice smoke coming somewhere below the head when I first start it up, and I only have one spring, not sure if there is a gasket where the muffle comes off the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) as I can't see it wihout pulling the whole motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Would lack of a seal there account for that much compression loss?

FWIW I just tested compression and now I'm getting 90 PSI - I may have had the fitting on the compression tester tightened better this time.

Looks like I'll be pulling the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) next so I will post pics when that's done. It may be a few weeks, work always gets in the way :p

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Before you go crazy and yank the Engine I would get another compression tester from a friend and take another reading. If you don't have a quality tester the calibration may be out. I have an American made unit that is good and a chinamen one that is out by about 20psi. At any rate 90psi is real low and if you add 20psi for a bad tester that's gona still be on the low side but may not necessarily be a rebuild.
As for the question on the exhaust gasket -- I wouldn't say that the gasket missing would make you lose the compression. My money says rings are done.
You should do a leak down test BEFORE you take it apart because your Engine may not be holding pressure or vacuum.
Your belt looks ok in the video but you must verify that both shivs are opening. You do this by taking a felt marker and making a mark from top to bottom on both driven and driver shivs. Then go for a ride and see if the felt marks are rubbed off. If not then that shiv is not working and would cause you to have no top speed. I bet neither shiv has ever been serviced or lubed.
The Engine sounded nice in that vid by the way.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Here is a pdf on leak down tester and testing.


Attachments:
2 stroke pressure testing.pdf [314.03 KiB]
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Thanks.

I'm going to get Craftsman or Snap-On compression tester and see what I get.

I'll let you guys know what I find out.

Thanks for the info on leak testing.

Will I have to pull the whole roll cage to get the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) out?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:00 pm 
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wjstarck wrote:
Thanks.

I'm going to get Craftsman or Snap-On compression tester and see what I get.

I'll let you guys know what I find out.

Thanks for the info on leak testing.

Will I have to pull the whole roll cage to get the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) out?


No but it makes it a lot easier if you do. You won't bump your pumpkin.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:50 am 
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Haha OK thanks.

My Goki starter fried last night so awaiting a new one of those.

Just one more question on the carb:

When I put the needle back in, does that just sit in the lower portion of the carburetor (not sure what that's called, the jet?). Also, what does the U-shaped clip do (below the spring), and does it attach to anything or is it just placed in there (the needle and clamp are both marked '3' in the diagram below)? How is the needle moved when I pull the throttle cable (just trying to figure out how this carb works in theory)?

http://honda.mymcparts.com/p/Honda__FL250/Pipe--inlet/55001134/16221-358-000.html?partner=googlebase_adwords&kwd=&origin=pla

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
I'll try to help. Yes the needle sits in the jet. The needle is held in the slide with the c clip which moves up and down in the groves to adjust fuel delivery. The slide holds the end of you're throttle cable which opens and closes the slide while also raising the needle. Not sure about the u piece.
Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:43 pm 
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That "U" clip marked #3 fits at the bottom of #8. There is a groove there for it to fit in. It holds down that washer looking thing with the little tit on it. That is also marked #3. All this holds in your throttle cable so it don't pull out. Hooking up your throttle cable to the carb can be a pain. Starting at #11 just stack it all up. It will make sense.
Also the next time you take something apart that you haven't done before, take out ur fn phone and take pics. It always amazes me at work when everyone is playing with their fn phone but never use it for what its good for -- taking pics of crap we are ripping apart so we can put it back together.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Good advice thanks

Whoever owned this before me apparently lost the clip and it was only when I was going through the carb rebuild kit that I saw that clip and said 'what the hell is that, never saw that before?!?'

Then I looked at the diagram but it's hard to tell how it fits in there.

So - does the needle just sit inside that brass fitting at the bottom of the carb? Or does it attach somehow to the bottom of the silver cylinder that the throttle cable is attached to?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
It should drop down the middle of ur slide only being supported on the top end. The bottom fits in ur main jet and when u give it throttle the slide meters air and the needle and main jet meter fuel. That's simplified but should get u there.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
wjstarck wrote:
Good advice thanks

Whoever owned this before me apparently lost the clip and it was only when I was going through the carb rebuild kit that I saw that clip and said 'what the hell is that, never saw that before?!?'

Then I looked at the diagram but it's hard to tell how it fits in there.

So - does the needle just sit inside that brass fitting at the bottom of the carb? Or does it attach somehow to the bottom of the silver cylinder that the throttle cable is attached to?


Looks like I was shooting my mouth off before I knew what was going on :-) . AGAIN !!
You start with the silver cylinder - then put the needle in it, the little "C" clip must be in the middle groove so needle don't fall through - then the cable and spring have to go in and this is a bit of a pain - then the washer with the little tit goes in - then the "U" clip goes in and snaps into the groove at the bottom of the silver cylinder.

I think I know what you are having issues with. In the pic it looks like the needle goes into the carb first and then everything else. NO that's NOT HOW IT GOES. You start with the silver cylinder, as you call it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
You will find that the spring and throttle cable will be a troublesome issue to get together but I hold the carb cap with the cable through it with my right hand. Then I slide the spring over the cable and crunch it up with my fingers and try to hold it with my right hand. With your left hand grab the silver cylinder and try to hook the cable end into the slot at the bottom of the silver cylinder. You have to use some caution here because the needle will already be installed in the cylinder and you don't want to bend it. It takes a few tries.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Do all of this somewhere u won't loose the spring if it pops loose.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
FloridaEdd wrote:
Do all of this somewhere u won't loose the spring if it pops loose.


Yeah what you said.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
After you get that cable in DON'T LET GO OF THE SPRING !! Next you put in the washer thing with the tit down. The tit fits into the groove for the cable. Next the "U" thing goes in and seats in the groove in the side of the silver cylinder. NOW YOU CAN LET GO OF THE SPRING.
Yes this is a pain in the azz. It takes a few tries usually. If the spring slips out of your hand before you get these other pieces in then you will have to crunch it up again and continue. You are basically working with one hand.
You should be good at that right ?? :-) .


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
When complete and before you install the carb on the Engine have someone push the throttle all the way down and verify the carb opens all the way. If not adjust the cable adjuster at the top of the carb.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Double post, just edited this as I don't see a way to delete a dupe


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Here are the parts I'm looking at

1) Shiny silver cylinder that houses all the components
2) Needle and clip
3) Grey metal disc with one hole in the center, one off to the side and a small tab sticking up near the edge.
4) The U-shaped spring clip thingy
5) Large spring
6) Throttle cable
7) Cap and rubber washer that screws on top of the carb
8) Small metal washer that sits in a depression in the center hole of the silver cylinder where the needle goes through. There were two in there, should there be?

Here is how I assembled it:

1) Ran throttle cable through middle of rubber washer and spring
2) Placed grey metal disc in with tab facing up
3) Pulled throttle cable through slot on the side of the silver cylinder and placed the end of it in that groove on the underside of the silver cylinder.
4) Placed the U shaped clip on top of the grey metal disc although I have no idea how it's supposed to be in there or what it's supposed to do or it it's supposed to engage anything.
5) Placed the needle through the hole in the center of the grey disc so it sticks out the bottom of the silver cylinder. The clip on the needle is placed in the middle of all the threads at the top
6) Put the whole assembly back in to the carb. Screwed the cap back on

It idles like an absolute champ, but now I get virtually no power when I pull on the throttle. I pulled on the throttle cable before putting it back in the carb and it seems to pull up on that grey disk.

Unless I have done something obviously wrong above, let me know can I can post a pic or vide of what it looks like inside the silver cylinder now.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
wjstarck wrote:
Here are the parts I'm looking at

1) Shiny silver cylinder that houses all the components
2) Needle and clip
3) Grey metal disc with one hole in the center, one off to the side and a small tab sticking up near the edge.
4) The U-shaped spring clip thingy
5) Large spring
6) Throttle cable
7) Cap and rubber washer that screws on top of the carb
8) Small metal washer that sits in a depression in the center hole of the silver cylinder where the needle goes through. There were two in there, should there be?

Here is how I assembled it:

1) Ran throttle cable through middle of rubber washer and spring
2) Placed grey metal disc in with tab facing up
3) Pulled throttle cable through slot on the side of the silver cylinder and placed the end of it in that groove on the underside of the silver cylinder.
4) Placed the U shaped clip on top of the grey metal disc although I have no idea how it's supposed to be in there or what it's supposed to do or it it's supposed to engage anything.
5) Placed the needle through the hole in the center of the grey disc so it sticks out the bottom of the silver cylinder. The clip on the needle is placed in the middle of all the threads at the top
6) Put the whole assembly back in to the carb. Screwed the cap back on

It idles like an absolute champ, but now I get virtually no power when I pull on the throttle. I pulled on the throttle cable before putting it back in the carb and it seems to pull up on that grey disk.

Unless I have done something obviously wrong above, let me know can I can post a pic or vide of what it looks like inside the silver cylinder now.


Your problem is #5.
The needle with the clip in the middle position goes in first BEFORE you do anything else.
Another problem is #2.
The tab goes down.
Another problem is #4.
There should be a groove for the "U" clip.
Another problem is #8.
There shouldn't be any washers, let alone two, in there. WTF ?? Did someone screw around with this carb.
I will post some pics of mine later for you. Busy right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Something really smells here.
You talk about a "U" clip and two washers. You need to post some pics so we can see what you got. Some carbs have a "U" clip and others do not. You slide must have a groove for it and if it don't then someone has been screwing around with this carb. The two washers are a mystery. Post pics please.
Below are pics of a stock carb taken off of one of my FL350's. You will notice that there is no "U" clip and no groove inside the slide for one to fit in. Therefore no "U" clip in this carb. There are also no "washers".
1) put the needle in it
2) hook the cable in
3) put the silver washer with the tab in and make sure tab is down and fits into the groove for cable
4) "if" your carb has a groove in the slide for a "U" clip then install it. If not then it is not needed
5) now you can let go of the spring
6) "two washers" -- never heard of such a thing -- Pics please.
This is the order it goes together -- no short cuts or any other way.


Attachments:
File comment: This is how it goes together
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File comment: Notice no groove for "U" clip in this particular carb
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20170602_105754.jpg [ 36.7 KiB | Viewed 3735 times ]
File comment: Needle in first
20170602_105821.jpg
20170602_105821.jpg [ 41.54 KiB | Viewed 3735 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Thanks so much for your reply. What kind of carb is yours?

This is a stock KeiHin carb. It was rebuilt previously by a Honda motorcycle/ATV mechanic.

Here is the inside of the silver cylinder (WTH is the technical term for this?) with all the pieces removed. Notice the cratering around the center hole. Not sure if that is pitting (seems like alot) or that was done intentionally.

Attachment:
File comment: Inside of the silver cylinder with all the pieces removed.
IMG_5837.JPG
IMG_5837.JPG [ 59.67 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


Here is another shot. Notice the two washers stacked one on top of the other in the central hole

Attachment:
File comment: Better view inside
IMG_5844.JPG
IMG_5844.JPG [ 62.29 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


Here is it from the bottom

Attachment:
File comment: Inside of the silver cylinder
IMG_5836.JPG
IMG_5836.JPG [ 64.92 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


Here are all the pieces. The two small washers were in that central hole, one stacked on top of the other.

Attachment:
File comment: Components
IMG_5834.JPG
IMG_5834.JPG [ 103.38 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


This view shows the metal disc in place. There is no way for it to insert with the tab facing down, as there is no groove or anything else for it to sit in.

Attachment:
File comment: Metal disc in place
FullSizeRender.jpg
FullSizeRender.jpg [ 22.4 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


Here it is all put together, minus the needle. Notice the washers in the central portion of the silver cylinder underneath the metal disc. My clip fits into a groove in the silver cylinder.
I'm pretty sure the way I have the throttle cable going through is wrong, once I looked at it once I was taking it apart. I think the disc needs to be rotated so that the throttle cable goes through the teardrop cutout in the central area, and the hole I currently have it going through is meant to be lined up over a corresponding hole in the bottom of the silver cylinder.

Attachment:
File comment: Assembled
IMG_5830.JPG
IMG_5830.JPG [ 42.97 KiB | Viewed 3729 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
wjstarck wrote:
Thanks so much for your reply. What kind of carb is yours?

This is a stock KeiHin carb. It was rebuilt previously by a Honda motorcycle/ATV mechanic.

Here it is all put together, minus the needle. Notice the washers in the central portion of the silver cylinder underneath the metal disc. My clip fits into a groove in the silver cylinder.
I'm pretty sure the way I have the throttle cable going through is wrong, once I looked at it once I was taking it apart. I think the disc needs to be rotated so that the throttle cable goes through the teardrop cutout in the central area, and the hole I currently have it going through is meant to be lined up over a corresponding hole in the bottom of the silver cylinder.

Attachment:
IMG_5830.JPG


1) My carb is same -- Keihn, but from an FL350.
2) The silver cylinder is called a slide.
3) I don't know if I want to say this but they fkd up that carb. It looks like they got a dremel tool and ground out that part in the center of the slide where the needle goes, so then they had to put a couple of washers in it to try to fix their boo boo. It may not have been successful and that's why you are having issues. Just my opinion.
4) Your statement above about the cable is correct.

All I can suggest right now is put the needle in it -- two washers -- metal disk -- "U" clip and then see if you can push the needle up (GENTLY) with your finger and see if it pushes through those two washers. If it does then there is your problem.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Basically the silver disk that sits between the "U" clip and the needle is what holds down the needle into it's seat. This needle can not be allowed to float up or down. It is precise. That's why when you move the clip on the needle into the next groove you get more or less fuel depending on which way you moved it. It is very precise and any float in the needle is not allowed. Some yoyo dremeled out that precise seat for the needle. To fix that will require some skill and a lathe. If you don't have that then I think you will be buying a new carb. Your done.


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