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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:44 am 
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Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I bet these engines used an MSD ignition box! Thus the high revs!

adnoh wrote:
I may have time late in the year to take on new projects. It depends on upon getting done what I have on my plate know. I keep you advised if time allows. It will take time to do the work and I would have to have parts for about a year. The whole complete Engine, heads and exhausts would be required and all the varible parts. It does interest me to have an opertunity to look over professional Engine builders work and learn. I have been logging data from your Engine in a seperate file. I have a ton of questions that would drive the builder nuts and most likly get a wrench upside my head. What interests me about you pic and piston location is the squish. It goes against would I have done and been working on. An air cooled cylinder, I could see an application for such clearence however on the water cooled jug I find it surprising and make me ask my self why and time to refelct. Many has mentioned squish and whats the #. This may be why they ask as well other than just making sure it's not to close,in this case it may be, why so much. I will try to get my hands on a YZ piston and see what the piston crown angle, pin to crown and pin offset is. Wonder which way Yahama rolls the piston, intake or exhaust side. My first thought on the pic and the comp # is over rev which the short stroke of the ody likes and has an advantge over the pilot. Wonder if they do this to help keep it in check. Then it makes me question the timimg and heat range and LT on the pipe. See more question than ansawers. It leads me to think that it made to rev up past 8500 with a peak around 8000 and get the egts right on top end and a slughish bottom sounding like it's missing and slight stumble thu mid. I gotta know is it kinda hard to start at low cranking speed. I know its a lot of thought just from a pic and low comp number.That is just how my head works, again more questions than ansawers. When you did a crank comp check did you do a wet test just to make sure it's not a ring problem. Again just aback yard hacker no pro. Thank you for sharing this project with the board


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
I may have time late in the year to take on new projects. It depends on upon getting done what I have on my plate know. I keep you advised if time allows. It will take time to do the work and I would have to have parts for about a year. The whole complete Engine, heads and exhausts would be required and all the varible parts. It does interest me to have an opertunity to look over professional Engine builders work and learn. I have been logging data from your Engine in a seperate file. I have a ton of questions that would drive the builder nuts and most likly get a wrench upside my head. What interests me about you pic and piston location is the squish. It goes against would I have done and been working on. An air cooled cylinder, I could see an application for such clearence however on the water cooled jug I find it surprising and make me ask my self why and time to refelct. Many has mentioned squish and whats the #. This may be why they ask as well other than just making sure it's not to close,in this case it may be, why so much. I will try to get my hands on a YZ piston and see what the piston crown angle, pin to crown and pin offset is. Wonder which way Yahama rolls the piston, intake or exhaust side. My first thought on the pic and the comp # is over rev which the short stroke of the ody likes and has an advantge over the pilot. Wonder if they do this to help keep it in check. Then it makes me question the timimg and heat range and LT on the pipe. See more question than ansawers. It leads me to think that it made to rev up past 8500 with a peak around 8000 and get the egts right on top end and a slughish bottom sounding like it's missing and slight stumble thu mid. I gotta know is it kinda hard to start at low cranking speed. I know its a lot of thought just from a pic and low comp number.That is just how my head works, again more questions than ansawers. When you did a crank comp check did you do a wet test just to make sure it's not a ring problem. Again just aback yard hacker no pro. Thank you for sharing this project with the board


Friend of mine had a old 350 that was either owned by or worked on by Bob Briggs it had his name on the frame some place, anyways it had a 350 Engine in it that revved to 9200 RPM going down the long straight away when he raced at Ashtabula, Ohio

Be nice to know the design RPM of these engines


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Turbo, I considered the box being a varible and changing the curve. Usally when I see a box they need hotter spark as not for the high CR not to snuff the spark. If his is a low CR set up then I would look at the box as a cruve. The heat range would alter the egt about 50 degrees up and down and could be a tunning tool for the combo of a longer LT and retarded timing. Up to about 5000/6000 than start to reduce the curve maintaining heat in the pipe and imorove top end over rev. The piston position with retarded timing and combustion lag would require a lower CR and a slower squish velocity or lower MSV. This is one reason I was curious about the rod and the dwell time. This would help in the thought process. Very interesting ain't it. It's like tring to crawl inside the builder head and try to learn what He or She alredy knows. Then one has to figure how to get it to the ground. Save that one for later. Even there timing plays a part.

"H" you think they will accualy tell us. I can see it turning that much with the double bearing carrier. I would bet it's not there just to suport the clutch. I'll input the 9200 and see where comes in. Man I wish I could have aired up tires for these guys and listend in. Cool pic.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
there in a custom CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) for the 400 motors,and it will work on the 350's I will post pics and details in a minute


stand by


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) wiring diagram and pic
the builder is out of ca,and very quiet about it..no details on the internals
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2320
Location: near NJ rider
Didnt some of these engines have multiple spark plugs also?

This really cool stuff,but I'm having a hell of a time keeping track of which thread is which now!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
yep,nuke has the only double plug version
it has an msd var. box

Again, on my 360, the bottom end is almost stock, new bearings,seals and a hotrod..no mods done for the topend

The 360 came out before the special CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) box,I believe they used the standard 350 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition)

that's it, the top end is what I added, .40+ 533p4 wieco piston
The 400 Rennie is a totally different animal
the 400 BRIGGS that nuke has is different from that


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Confusing huh? I have em infront of me and my head is still spinning...so many loose parts and so many different engines. I will start a new thread with the Bob Briggs twin plug "Beastie" 90+HP,supposed to rev into the 9K range. I will take lots if pics of the MSD stuff too.

Oh, I have several of those homemade rev CDIs so if Adnoh or some one else wants to carefully "destroy" it to see what makes it tick...let me know. :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
KUDA wrote:
CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) wiring diagram and pic
the builder is out of ca,and very quiet about it..no details on the internals
Image
Image


That looks like the same CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) that OX racing had on their old Briggsbuilt with the 360 Engine, they were potted in a piece of PVC pipe, home made looking deal, he had problems with his CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) going bad after they sat all winter they never could figure out how or why even the builder had no clues, what he did to fix the problem is to unplug the wires to the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) over the winter or if he knew it was going to set for a long time without use then plug it back in before going riding.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
ok, im confused now!
IDK, I am going to run a stock CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and see how it goes with the 360
I was told{don't know if true} that the pvc CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) was used because of the port timing change on the 400's
I know the flywheel is marked for the timing change and the spacer plate has to be used
I have one more guy Im gonna try and get ahold of, he knows all,but very busy guy from what im told

Gotta sit down,room is spinning!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
KUDA wrote:
ok, im confused now!
IDK, I am going to run a stock CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and see how it goes with the 360
I was told{don't know if true} that the pvc CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) was used because of the port timing change on the 400's
I know the flywheel is marked for the timing change and the spacer plate has to be used
I have one more guy Im gonna try and get ahold of, he knows all,but very busy guy from what im told

Gotta sit down,room is spinning!



You need all them details your questioning yourself about.

Basically CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition)'s have a curve built into them, in general they retard ignition timing at lower RPM's then advance the timing in the midrange then retard the timing again at higher RPM's

When you modify a Engine to run more RPM's than stock, when running the stock CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) you usually end up with too much ignition retard at the higher RPM's, performance then suffers, some people to compensate for this will advance the static timing a few degrees to compensate for the retarding at high RPM's, some of the high end after market CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) systems allow you to modify the ignition timing curve to match your engines needs.

The home built CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition)'s you have might have a modified ignition timing curve built into them and was developed for a specific Engine.

We can assume the ignition timing for these engines was developed when they developed each Engine, finding out EXACTLY what each setup needs will be key to these engines performing correctly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I take video note when back yard hacking so I can log stuff here is a cut out excert of one of those notes related to static Engine timing. This should help others follow what were taking about. Its a wmv.


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Timing set up 1.wmv [ 3.54 MiB | Viewed 1826 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
part 2. I do not advise anybody do this unless there DARN sure they have a handle on what there doing. This are just my notes for refrence and discussion. Had to throw out the disclaimer. Please Do Use Caution though.


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Timing set up 2.wmv [ 3.87 MiB | Viewed 1824 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
adnoh wrote:
part 2. I do not advise anybody do this unless there DARN sure they have a handle on what there doing. This are just my notes for refrence and discussion. Had to throw out the disclaimer. Please Do Use Caution though.


Now that's some straight up backyard hacking right there, I luv it Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Yup, totally agree Stix. I love this stuff. You go Adnoh! I know the banshee quad guys can buy woodruff keys that have already been degreed for what ever they need. I always wondered if they would interchange,look like the same size to the naked eye.

That Mopar 440 I am working on is getting a blower dual carb setup. I am going to have to retard the timing for every few lbs of boost and every 100HP of NOS I add. MSD makes several ignition systems for just such a thing so the work is already done.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
part 2. I do not advise anybody do this unless there DARN sure they have a handle on what there doing. This are just my notes for refrence and discussion. Had to throw out the disclaimer. Please Do Use Caution though.


Cool videos thanks, how many degrees you end up advancing?

How you grinding your keys, wish I had a surface grinder... You ever look at making the trigger coil mount adjustable?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 4678
Location: Carson City NV
I used to have a Honda TRX400EX which had an ignition advance key with an advance of about 6 degrees.

They are made by Curtis Sparks Racing.

http://www.alwaysopenmall.com/layouts/0 ... edItemID=0" ."..

Rand


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Stix, Nukem,"H", Thanks. Nukem if your running MSD on the mopar look at a retard control module It's an adjustable module. "H" each key is Engine specific and I do them by hand from raw stock material. They take me about two hours each to make. I use the old fly wheel that is indexed so I can find tune them to each. The nice thing about making your own is you can make 1/2 degree ect. and just turn them around to go from advanced to retard.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I was looking at the paper drawing of the 350 ign. It looks like they changed the amount of available advance. It looks like they changed the duration on the flywheel mag which reduces total available advance and the initial timing depending on which end they ground in relation to TDC (Top Dead Center) hard to tell in the pic. Kuda have you looked at you flywheel to see if it was ground. Measure the length of the timing tab with a string then mic the length of the string. The some one can measure the length of a stock flywheel and we can see how much and what they changed. We should be able to take the circumference of the fly wheel and establish an amount of degrees.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:18 pm 
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Posts: 2243
Found this in some of the notes n paperwork...thought it may help some???? Kuda's Engine is the 360 but they may use the same degree change.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
adnoh wrote:
I was looking at the paper drawing of the 350 ign. It looks like they changed the amount of available advance. It looks like they changed the duration on the flywheel mag which reduces total available advance and the initial timing depending on which end they ground in relation to TDC (Top Dead Center) hard to tell in the pic. Kuda have you looked at you flywheel to see if it was ground. Measure the length of the timing tab with a string then mic the length of the string. The some one can measure the length of a stock flywheel and we can see how much and what they changed. We should be able to take the circumference of the fly wheel and establish an amount of degrees.


Ill measure the stock parts if you tell me exactly where to measure. I am unclear about the "timing tab". Its been a while since I had the 350 motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) apart. I do have some parts I can take measurements off of...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
OK, The new stuff came in today!

2 heads,1 lower comp
1 high comp
brand new coated yz 490 piston for the big boy!{perfect fit BTW!}
Res bottle for the fluidyne rad system
assorted head gaskets
I will be checking compression with both heads tomorrow and posting results
Have to drop off piston at shop for cutting and drilling too
Busy day tomorrow!
Image
Image

BTW, The guy who I got the 360 stuff from,Has Greg George's Race car,
I had him check to see what CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) it is running{hope he's right}

Stock CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) system...Go figure
again, there is no cutting or modding done on the lower end of my motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) other than a fresh rebuild and hotrod
no change in timing

so we will see how she runs


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Great news, bolt up and go. Look forwad to the new numbers. Nice looking piston.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:23 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Posts: 135
Location: WESTERN NC
Turns out,1 head is bad,exhaust is coming out the water fitting...Crack somewhere,60psi
this was the lower comp head

2nd head, about 142psi when I noticed a leak at base gasket..soooo

motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is back on the bench..going through it today
leakdown test

question??

coppercoat spray permatex vs yamabond for base gasket??

thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:31 am 
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Posts: 22516
Location: Chicago
KUDA wrote:
Turns out,1 head is bad,exhaust is coming out the water fitting...Crack somewhere,60psi
this was the lower comp head

2nd head, about 142psi when I noticed a leak at base gasket..soooo

motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is back on the bench..going through it today
leakdown test

question??

coppercoat spray permatex vs yamabond for base gasket??

thoughts?



Rather than chasing after gimmicks and snake oils to fix the leak I would FIRST do a CSI and find out exactly why its leaking and fix the problem.

If their is a bad spot some place that is allowing it to leak that needs fixed because sooner or later the gasket sealer will fail and it will leak.

I would only use 3 bond, Honda bond Yamabond on the cylinder base mainly because that's all I have ever seen used its also the only thing I have seen the OEM's use to seal the crank cases that don't use a gasket.

I have used copper coat on copper head gaskets before it was recommended to me by others that had used copper head gaskets in the past, I have also used copper head gaskets with nothing on them they never leaked, I no longer use the copper coat on them, I have also used the copper coat on USED head gaskets on engines like lawn mower engines, I used it on some of the fiber FL250 head gaskets when I was doing some testing and development where I was removing and reinstalling the cylinder and head many times trying different internal mods, once I finalized the internals I then used new gasket with no coatings.


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