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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Engine out totally covered with spooge-
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QUICK LOOK INSIDE THE EXHAUST-looks actually ok to me, it still has great compression-
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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:52 am 
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Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Engine after cleaning, I scrubbed it for over 2 hrs with a tooth brush and spray nine to get that spooge off it-before and after shots:
Before:
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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:57 am 
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Location: New Jersey
Here is a great shot of the area where the clutch is close to the jug, is this normal? You can also see the areas where the studs were welded into for the conversion to a 500 which is cool. I am a bit nervous the area they gouged out for the clutch is leaking, I will try to get an air leak test before I send it off for a complete CSI at the Hoser compound,-of coarse with Hosers blessings!!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:04 am 
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Location: New Jersey
Another question, some of the studs are shorter, longer them others, is this correct? I was always under the impression you need at least 2-3 threads showing out of the nut for proper torque-in these pictures you will see some studs are not even out of the nuts:


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
Engine bay before and after cleaning.
Also notice the repair to the 1 rear lower suspension arm, they installed a hiem joint on the 1 side. 1 rear suspension arm bent on the lower right as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:13 am 
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Posts: 764
Mudbogger wrote:
Here is a great shot of the area where the clutch is close to the jug, is this normal? You can also see the areas where the studs were welded into for the conversion to a 500 which is cool. I am a bit nervous the area they gouged out for the clutch is leaking, I will try to get an air leak test before I send it off for a complete CSI at the Hoser compound,-of coarse with Hosers blessings!!



Mudbogger, my 500 cylinder is a little ground down too. This is from the clutch rubbing and not shaving down the backside of the clutch. I temporarily put on a clutch that had not been shaved and that's what happened. Mine is very slight and not nearly as deep. Did you hear a ringing from the back of the clutch hitting the cylinder? Be sure that once the Engine is repaired, you put on a clutch that has the backside shaved down. FYI all info stated is using a power bloc clutch, not too sure about a comet clutch.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:34 am 
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[quote="Mudbogger"]Another question, some of the studs are shorter, longer them others, is this correct? I was always under the impression you need at least 2-3 threads showing out of the nut for proper torque-in these pictures you will see some studs are not even out of the nuts:[/


Sorry mud, I am wrong on the studs! I deleted my previous post about the studs! You are correct about the studs, 2-3 threads exposed on all 4 bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Pilot bird wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Here is a great shot of the area where the clutch is close to the jug, is this normal? You can also see the areas where the studs were welded into for the conversion to a 500 which is cool. I am a bit nervous the area they gouged out for the clutch is leaking, I will try to get an air leak test before I send it off for a complete CSI at the Hoser compound,-of coarse with Hosers blessings!!



Mudbogger, my 500 cylinder is a little ground down too. This is from the clutch rubbing and not shaving down the backside of the clutch. I temporarily put on a clutch that had not been shaved and that's what happened. Mine is very slight and not nearly as deep. Did you hear a ringing from the back of the clutch hitting the cylinder? Be sure that once the Engine is repaired, you put on a clutch that has the backside shaved down. FYI all info stated is using a power bloc clutch, not too sure about a comet clutch.


I will look at the clutch and see, It did not appear to be shaved but I would expect it to be only a couple thousands right, hard to see by the naked eye, I could measure it any idea on the clutch plate faces measurements?
I did not hear any type of rubbing, just the usual 102 noise, which always make me think I threw a rod, I hate the noise they make.
Anything Engine wise you might see that might draw a red flag? I appreciate the help! I again have not 1 ounce of knowledge on these conversions.It appears the cases get extensive welding to do this conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:47 am 
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Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Pilot bird wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Another question, some of the studs are shorter, longer them others, is this correct? I was always under the impression you need at least 2-3 threads showing out of the nut for proper torque-in these pictures you will see some studs are not even out of the nuts:



The studs are correct, look closely and you will see the base of the cylinder is thicker on the intake side as opposed to the exhaust side. My 500 is the same.

Thank you sir. After I get a hold of Hoser for committal to do a CSI I will send him the clutch as well, makes sense as I do not have a lathe.
Now does shaving 1 side of any clutch hurt balance and performance? Are they not a balanced unit?
I was also curious what style intake do you have on your Engine, and what style carb boots are you running? Any pictures you can provide are appreciated much!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:03 am 
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Posts: 764
Mudbogger wrote:
Pilot bird wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Here is a great shot of the area where the clutch is close to the jug, is this normal? You can also see the areas where the studs were welded into for the conversion to a 500 which is cool. I am a bit nervous the area they gouged out for the clutch is leaking, I will try to get an air leak test before I send it off for a complete CSI at the Hoser compound,-of coarse with Hosers blessings!!



Mudbogger, my 500 cylinder is a little ground down too. This is from the clutch rubbing and not shaving down the backside of the clutch. I temporarily put on a clutch that had not been shaved and that's what happened. Mine is very slight and not nearly as deep. Did you hear a ringing from the back of the clutch hitting the cylinder? Be sure that once the Engine is repaired, you put on a clutch that has the backside shaved down. FYI all info stated is using a power bloc clutch, not too sure about a comet clutch.


I will look at the clutch and see, It did not appear to be shaved but I would expect it to be only a couple thousands right, hard to see by the naked eye, I could measure it any idea on the clutch plate faces measurements?
I did not hear any type of rubbing, just the usual 102 noise, which always make me think I threw a rod, I hate the noise they make.
Anything Engine wise you might see that might draw a red flag? I appreciate the help! I again have not 1 ounce of knowledge on these conversions.It appears the cases get extensive welding to do this conversion.



Here is a pic, backside of clutch shaved down. This is only needed on the outter edged of the clutch as there is no contact else where to create a problem.

And another pic of the cylinder slightly ground down.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:10 am 
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Mudbogger wrote:
Exhaust pipe, any ideas on make?
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More pictures of the Engine, some skillbilly never sealed the pipe to the flange and it has been leaking for sometime, I am also concerned that the jug gasket is also not leaking hard to tell with all of the spooge on the cases from the bad seal:
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View from the rear, do the 500 conversions always have this much of a bend in the intake? Also noticed that the seal from carb to the rear carb boot is not sealed properly:
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Here is a pic of intake, mine is much shorter and closer. I am sure depending on the carb and size, a different size boot is needed. Both of ours look more like radiator hose than a boot:) lol


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Posts: 3157
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
When I went from the Powerbloc to the Comet, I shaved the same amount from the Comet that was shaved from the Powerbloc, I found the Comet needed more shaved so I shaved a little more from the jug, not much, and not as much as was shaved from your jug Mud, wow that's quite a bit, at least I know I wanst getting to thin if your was that shaven :shock: The reedcage housing on the 500 jug IS slightly lower and requires some grinding and finesse of the starter and reed cage, gasket, etc.

I wonder about all that spoooge. This ATV Rimming 500 jug of mine has piston wash issues according to my symptoms and what i have read here. I couldnt keep the dam thing jetted, it was either too rich or too lean so I stuck with the too rich and ended up with a lot of spooge too. Have hoser take a good look at your porting job on that jug and see if he thinks it looks ok. Adnoh looked at my jug and said it looked like the transfer ports were just shooting the gas right out of the exhaust port and not letting it stay in the jug to cool everything. I think I need to replace my jug but I went with a Power Jet intake system for now and getting it tuned in, I thinks its gonna bandaid the problem for now. Hmm cant think of anything else at the moment. Your going to like the torque of that 500 VS the 400, you will be pulling outta corners and climing dunes, oohh egh hmm, you don't ride dunes, ok hills and mountains like never before :-)


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
checked the backside of the clutch it is indeed shaved, weather it shaved itself on the side of the jug I can't tell but it is shaved, it does not look like it was done by lathe to me.
Fuel cell going to radiator shop this week to see if they can boil it, will let you know how it works out. Expansion chamber might need to be worked a bit where it meets the flange, the connection looks weird, are these pipes still made? ATVR sells them? I have a reed cage spacer in mine for some reason. I have a Mikuni flatside looks like 39mm your running a PWK correct?
Now I will have to have Hoser check out whats going on with the studs, mabye they reused the 400 jug studs instead of using the 500 jug's. It is weird though, hoping to do a air leak test if time permits!
Thanks for the information fellas, great help to me!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Mudbogger wrote:
checked the backside of the clutch it is indeed shaved, weather it shaved itself on the side of the jug I can't tell but it is shaved, it does not look like it was done by lathe to me.
Fuel cell going to radiator shop this week to see if they can boil it, will let you know how it works out. Expansion chamber might need to be worked a bit where it meets the flange, the connection looks weird, are these pipes still made? ATVR sells them?
Thanks for the information fellas, great help to me!


I believe the pipe atvr put on the 500 is a power pros and yes they are still available from atvr last time I checked about 6 months ago but they mark them up quite a bit. Someone here on the forum went straight thru Power Pros to get it for less. Good luck buddy


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Thank you! Took carb apart, it was riddled with debris. Internals are as follows:
Carb has serial numbers T38 85A on body
440 Main jet
40 slow jet
3.5 throttle valve
389-67R-8 Needle jet assembly
6FJ41 Needle on middle groove
Carb is a flatside which is in good shape.
Bowl filled with debris, everything needs to be replaced.
I was hoping to send the pipe with Engine to match it up when assembled at Hosers.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
http://www.atvpowersportsphx.com/pilot.html

440 BUCKS FOR A NEW PIPE, YES INDEED they went up in price wow!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Image

that's why I pull my seat after every long weekend ride trip so I can inspect things like the exhaust being sealed, also so can clean the Engine compartment.

You say the carb had shit in the float bowl, what was it running for a gas filter?


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
stock OEM Honda filter hoser, and it had a smaller secondary one inline before the carb! the tank is totally rusted out.Here is a picture of the inside, it is an ATV racing desert tank, holds a bit more then stock, if the rad shop cannot clean it a new stock OEM will replace it, I am having a secret squirrel air intake system made for the Pilot. :-)
Pic of the backside of the clutch as well. I think they just ran it till it scraped enough off the jug to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:31 am 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Something to consider when remounting the clutch. I know this from experience :shock: . Make sure the inside of the clutch (and crankshaft) where it mates to the crankshaft is free of any grease or lube of any kind. I had some grease left over from removing the clutch and when I was torquing the clutch onto the crankshaft, the dam clutch plate kept rubbing on the jug. I knew it wasn't doing that before and i have had the clutch off a few times before for tuning, until I used lube to get it off one time. my clearance is so small that extra lube enable the clutch to pull further onto the crankshaft thus causing the plate to rub on the jug, happy happy joy joy.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:58 am 
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Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
stock OEM Honda filter hoser, and it had a smaller secondary one inline before the carb! the tank is totally rusted out.Here is a picture of the inside, it is an ATV racing desert tank, holds a bit more then stock, if the rad shop cannot clean it a new stock OEM will replace it, I am having a secret squirrel air intake system made for the Pilot. :-)
Pic of the backside of the clutch as well. I think they just ran it till it scraped enough off the jug to be honest.



If you send the clutch with the Engine I will put it into the lathe and remove a little off the back of the clutch to provide more clearance and to make sure its trued up.

Far as I know all clutches used with the CR500 top end have to be clearanced on the back side.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:10 am 
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Yes from memory when I had Neil's LT500,the outer portion about 1"-1 1/2" was thinned down for clearance.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:51 am 
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Location: New Jersey
hoser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
stock OEM Honda filter hoser, and it had a smaller secondary one inline before the carb! the tank is totally rusted out.Here is a picture of the inside, it is an ATV racing desert tank, holds a bit more then stock, if the rad shop cannot clean it a new stock OEM will replace it, I am having a secret squirrel air intake system made for the Pilot. :-)
Pic of the backside of the clutch as well. I think they just ran it till it scraped enough off the jug to be honest.



If you send the clutch with the Engine I will put it into the lathe and remove a little off the back of the clutch to provide more clearance and to make sure its trued up.

Far as I know all clutches used with the CR500 top end have to be clearanced on the back side.


Thank you sir, I will send the clutch with the Engine. I was wondering if I should also send the expansion chamber, the fitment to the exhaust flange sucked big time and the expansion chamber itself looks poorly made where the flange on the pipe itself is welded.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:52 am 
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Location: New Jersey
bugeye59 wrote:
Yes from memory when I had Neil's LT500,the outer portion about 1"-1 1/2" was thinned down for clearance.

Thank you, was the any issues with clutch performance or clutch longevity due to the loss of material?


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:40 am 
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Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
No nothing that I can attribute to the clearance mod.
Never had any issues with that fixed inner sheave,but always with that damn D washer cover design!!!
No matter how careful I was,checking the alignments between D washer and crank end,retorquing and rechecking after trial runs...inevitably would always spin the cover D washer POXY setup.
But I can remember the LHS case cracking where all the 500 mod/welding was done to accomodate the 500 jug.
Cracked thru to the crank bearing housing?
It was all documented a few years back when I was racing it at Northam Speedway Downunder,but maybe some lost due to last Bastard hacking? :shock:

Here's one link I found,I'll add more as I find em.Keep a check on yours just incase?
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopi ... ase+damage

Just found it.Women can be a wonderful functioning thing...but SEARCH function is also! :-)
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopi ... hilit=dean


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 Post subject: Re: 500 conversion pilot
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:34 am 
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Location: New Jersey
Thanks for the great find!! WILL SAVE THE BOTH TO FILE HERE!


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