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 Post subject: 350 rebuild frame up
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
Heres the start of my fresh 350 project.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
Heres another 1 for you, sorry but I am not the best at this computer stuff!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
One last time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:04 am
Posts: 477
Location: wallace,sc
lookin good,now i need to get a A-arm setup for mine .what did it(a-arms w/shocks) end up costing you Mudbogger :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:54 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
From what I hear they will be going for $2,300.00 :shock: and that if your frame is tweaked the kit will not install.





Nice looking Frame Muddbogger, killer paint job, looks top shelf from the pictures. I would love to see some better pictures of the A arms, if possible some close ups, some different angles, from front, sides, and underneath.

Please don't take what i say the wrong way, dude your a friend, you have helped me out, no questions asked. I am sure you paid a fair chunk of coin for the set up, there is nothing personal in what is being said here by me, it is just an inanimate object to me.

The a arms LOOK nice but theres a couple things i see that worries me so far. I should keep my mouth shut until I see the rest of the kit, some more pictures or see the engineering / testing data but that's not my style as most of you know by now. I say what I think, when I think it.

I am not car engineer nor claim to have a clue about making frames or a arms. I do know that i have no business building such things for others, for myself yes, but not for sale to others. Copying a proven design is one thing, but it would take years and years of real car building and racing (and crashing) and/or many years of higher education including interning under veteran automotive engineering professionals for several years before i would tempt a task of such great responsibility.

I want and need products for our ever aging machines (I have a 350 and a pilot) but NOT at the price of anybody's safety, namely my own, my kids or my friends. After something happens to somebody its too late to fix a speared leg or god forbid worse. "I didn't know" or "sorry" just don't cut it.

I was a professional welder and have been certified in every form of welding and type of metal there is, Stick, Tig, Mig, Suberged Arc, plate, pipe, up, down, overhead, low/high pressure nuke, yada yada yada. Still i don't consider myself an expert.

I hope some of our other more experienced guys around here speak up and prove me wrong or right. I think too many times the guys who know right from wrong, bite their tounge so as to not put down other people's work or look like the bad guy. I feel above all else we should help the guys who don't know, not get hurt or screwed, whether it be from honda dealers getting a full 50% mark up on parts or mechanics who don't really know or care about your machine or other businesses or people misrepresenting themselves as something they are not.

A few things scare me about this set up. It looks fairly evident that the person who made this does not have a full understanding what they are working with and lack design theroy. Albeit impressive to look at.

The clamp on fittings look way bad, clamping a piece of metal onto another peice of metal does not work well, if you have ever done this you would know that it takes very little effort to make the clamp slide on the metal it is clamped to, no matter how tight it is. Having "teeth" crossways can help grip the metal but still it is a very poor connection at best, even if not used structurally. Having paint underneath this clamp would only serve to aid movement. Durring movement most likely the piant will chip , peel , or flake off leaving the clamp loose from the additional tolerance created by the missing paint on both parts. There is a reason Honda and other companies weld and gusset there joints the way they do, it is to distribute the load over a greater area of the tubing. I am sure there is a phrase or word for this and are numbers and equations to explain, I haven't a clue what they are.

The edges of the clamps also create shear points on the tube it is being clamped to. Clamps puts a large load on a small area of the tube, a section of tube that was not designed or intended to have such loads applied to it. Also the mounts for the J arms weren't made for appearent loads it looks like they will recieve with this kit. Again it would be nice to see more of it.

These are just a couple concerns I noticed. I figure I already said too much. I really do want Pilot and Ody products. I guess it doesn't sound like it. Please prove me wrong! Please tear me a new asshole. Please explain to me what I don't understand or missed.

I would love to have a proven set up for my 350, not at that price. Maybe in a year or two I could get a used set or copy/improve upon the design.


I would be very interested in more product info. Anything you have or can get, finished over all width, shock brand, travel, tubing type, size, connection methods, overall design criteria, crash test data, engineer's and manufacturer's name, address, phone number, engineer's & business's info, manufacturer's product liability insurance and retailers liability insurance. Any company who would not readily supply all of this info I would be suspect of.

Any bozo can tack some steel together but that doesn't make it a good product or safe. Engineering, design and testing is what makes a product decent and even then some inherent flaws only come out over time. Just look at the whole Liveire bumper / nerf bar deal, he hadn't a clue what he was doing and built and shipped unsafe bumpers for people to use on their rides!!! They were sucked in by the P-O board's wealth of knowledge and probably took that if he was part of it he must be OK, plus his "Image" and BS on the web that he is some kind of mechanical guru. He is lucky someone wasn't hurt by his products, they would be living in his house now. Last I heard he "recalled"(second hand info) both of them until he could make a beter design, wtf? This was what we suggested from the begining! I (and hoser) took a beating on that one and were accused of picking on Steve. Our advice was great until someone heard something they didn't want to hear. It basically split the old board into two camps the "Dee Dee Dee is a good guy" and the "livewire Bashers", all over Steve trying to make a buck, and based upon him recalling them, WE WERE RIGHT from the very start! Was anything said about that afterwards? NO! It was NEVER about bashing ANYONE for me, it was about seeing a poorly made product and pointing the faults out to my friends. Hell back in the day we helped steve in every way we could, I know several times I suggested he copy the Graydon bumper that is proven and works so well. he was convinced to build a better tomato. Very sad indeed. Lets hope this doesn't follow the same path for all our sake.



Get some more pictures now and while your putting the front end together. Details man we need details!! Can't wait to see it assembled and a test run. If it is an untested design just be carefully Mudd. That thing could fold up like a paper hat or have parts break loose or come off in bad directions. Don't trust someone on their word that "its tested", get proof, hard data, crash pictures, calculations and so forth.

Looks like a fresh motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and all fresh parts for it? I bet your psyched too , that will be a brand new machine from the looks of it, almost be a shame to get it dirty. almost


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 Post subject: 350 frame rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
Hare, no problem at all, I respect your posting,don't worry.I will post the pictures you need-np.I agree with you in some aspects of the kit,I will tell you at the moment 1 thing I have noticed right of the bat-if you have any and I mean ANY damage to your front clip,this kit will not fit without a fight (if at all)I highly recommend to all to inspect your frame to a T before ordering it,you'll be really upset when it doesnt fit onto your frame!!!I do like the kit, I also like the spring setup steve offered to me,it should give me the achieved ride, handling, dampening that I trying to acheive here.The front brackets that attach the front kit to the side bar on the front clip are optional, they arent needed but he can be used if you like, it a personal thing.The only thing I do not like about it to the present is the fact the stock front brake line tabs must be removed to accept the kit, I wasn't happy about that but if you have welding experience and a welder it wouldn't be a concern for you.you can weld them back on if you wanted to go back to the original suspension.This is in no way a bashing of steve, I have had no problems with him and he has been top notch with me in referrance to this kit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22131
Location: Chicago
How is this project going are you done yet?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
Well, funny you ask, I have not had alot of time to proceed with it, I am awaiting parts from the powdercoater but will let you in on some things I have encountered with the kit.First, if your frame has any type of tweak or bend in the front rail this kit will not go on without having to customixe some of the front brackets,which in my opinion weakens the front mounts badly.They arent very thick to begin with and arent that large-so if you need to cut them down to accomendate a bent front rail youre gonna weaken the main mounts for the kit substancally.I also in my opinion think the mounting bolts for the kit on the back are to small, they are only 12 point 5/16th bolts and I do not believe they can handle the stress of riding over a period of time.Let me stress to you guys these are only my opinions and I am not an enginneer,etc and do not claim to be.I also do not like the idea of having to cut out the bottom tubes that protect the floor tub, if you wanted to go back to stock setup you wont have the tubes to protect it anymore and at 500 for a new tub if you can find one that's sucks.As well, I didnt like the cutting of the stock brake line brackets as well, you must cut and ground down these in order to fit the front mounts for the new kit.I will post more as I go on.


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 Post subject: a-arms
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:38 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Knoxville, TN
Hey bogger how is the a-arm installation coming along. I haven't seen or heard anything about it in quite a while now and was wondering what you have done with the machine. You proceed with the kit, or did you abondon the project? Just curious.


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 Post subject: Hmm
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 204
Location: Waxahachie, TX Southern border of Dallas.
Well I just ordered my works shocks so I am not going to try this front suspension for a while. How ever after a little time and money I may go this route. I know its all great and all to be able to bolt this on and take it off again buuuut I believe that when I order this kit I will be having my father who is an expert welder weld anything that is bolted to the frame. I believe it would enhance the strength greatly and just like anything else this is just my opinion. I have been around and helped build many custom suspensions for rock crawling jeeps and buggys so some stuff works and some does not. But like any good idea this is a great start. I really don't get the removabilty catch if I go this route it will never come off. If I sell it it will go with the machine.

Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22131
Location: Chicago
kingjason wrote:
Well I just ordered my works shocks so I am not going to try this front suspension for a while. How ever after a little time and money I may go this route. I know its all great and all to be able to bolt this on and take it off again buuuut I believe that when I order this kit I will be having my father who is an expert welder weld anything that is bolted to the frame. I believe it would enhance the strength greatly and just like anything else this is just my opinion. I have been around and helped build many custom suspensions for rock crawling jeeps and buggys so some stuff works and some does not. But like any good idea this is a great start. I really don't get the removabilty catch if I go this route it will never come off. If I sell it it will go with the machine.

Jason


I think the whole "removabilty catch" was not so you could remove it if you wanted to
the idea was to provide a "bolt on" kit that did not require welding so someone without
a welder or welding skills could install one, I havent seen one of these in person yet and
cant wait to, there are things I see I don't really care for in the pictures but until I lay my
hands on them wont know for sure, what I do know for sure is the design and fabricating
skills of the guy selling them, I have laid hands on his bumpers and nerfs (there is a video
perhaps you have seen it) , porting, bore and hone, intake manifold etc. IMO he is a hack,
I have seen better design and quality in projects created by high school kids, I suggest
you put your own hands on one before you buy one, take a close look at what your
getting maybe see one in action, no doubt 10-12" of travel on the front of a 350 would be
more than welcome but you need to look at design and how it performs, does it have bump
steer? Excessive toe caster or camber changes as you cycle the suspension?

Cant wait for Mudbogger to finish his and bring it out so we can take a closer look, I like the
whole concept, based to the mfg's past performance don't have my hopes to high.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
I am almost done-it is a matter of days till it will be posted, !!!!


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 Post subject: LOL
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 204
Location: Waxahachie, TX Southern border of Dallas.
Yeah I have read the many posts. LOL Like I said I am going to just run the hell out of mine with the works shocks. I have had a blast with the stock suspension so I prob wont even look at the kit once I get the new shocks on.

Only other thing is if I was going to build a new a-arm kit I believe I would use a newer front setup with disk brakes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22131
Location: Chicago
How are the moving parts on your machine, I think another motivation for the kit was
to replace the stock stuff once it was well worn because Honda was not making replacement
parts any more?

With the limited performance of the rear suspension I think that will be more of a issue than
the front, let us know how your new shocks work out other 350 owners I have talk to were
real pleased with their shocks and didnt have bottoming out problems like they did with the
stock shocks.


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 Post subject: parts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 204
Location: Waxahachie, TX Southern border of Dallas.
My moving parts are fine and everything works as it should. I have a place by me that is 180 acres of offroading. 4 mild tracks, one supercross style track and multiple cross crounty trails well as far as you can on 180 acres. I ride my KX250 and the wifey rides the FL350 most of the time. However while I am resting LOL I get in the buggy and go ape shit. I seam to draw a large crowd on the Super track. I am going to get pics next time, the buggy has no problem with big air other than the occasional lawn dart but with my new mods I should be able to nail it at the top of the tabletops and carry the nose better. Only prob I have, and this is prob alot to do with shocks and lack of ummph is on the little doubles and steps because they have such an extreme take off angle for the dirtbikes. I have noticed that if I creep up to them at about 15 and then punch it I land more squarly. Im learning. I seam to end up smiling ear to ear and putting more time in the buggy than my KX although there is no substitute for a good dirt bike. I added a Dial a Jet to my mukini 38 flatslide, EEE ceramic pipe , and comet 102 with white spring this week and this should help a lot. Would have left the purple spring in but thinks the wifey may not like 4600 RPM take offs. LOL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Posts: 796
Location: Bolton Ma
I really like my Works Shocks a lot! Was a very good advice that I was given years past.

I'd be interested in hearing how the White Spring does. I have a 102c as well on a 350.

I'm overhauling a second one now and toying with the idea of another 102c or trying out the Powerbloc that I have. Probably do that and see how the two machines differ.


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 Post subject: spring
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 204
Location: Waxahachie, TX Southern border of Dallas.
Well the shocks should be here this week and I figure with the pipe, air box mod and clutch it should make a huge difference. Oh and the shocks may help a little too. lol. Only reason I went with the white spring was I thought it had nice power before so I still wanted it to be reasonably drivable for the wife and me.

J


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
I havent had any time to work on the 350-I'll try to at least take some pictures of it for you guys, it is 95% complete other than a dual air inlet,side nets,heat cycle the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )).WORK, HOSPITALS have dragged the progress to a snails crawl-grrrrrrrrr.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Posts: 796
Location: Bolton Ma
pics


Attachments:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Posts: 796
Location: Bolton Ma
2 more


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
That is the finished 350-it needs the new rims and tires, window nets on it but as you can see it is totally redone, the FRONT END KIT needs to be dialed in and tested next-and yes that's a Kleem research box on it for those who recognize it-Triple EEE CERAMIC COATED PIPE-Rand head-and it is for sale as well-PM if your interested in it and I can give you all the details on it-asking price is negotiable at present time, I'll never get whats in it but fair market value is expected for it min.-please don't waste my time and yours if you do not intend on looking, buying it don't PM ME.Thanks to all who helped in it's rebuild, espec Randy Bridgewater over at ODYSSEYSALVAGE.COM-without him and others it never would have gotten to it's present shape and I thank them greatly!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
The 350 is for sale-PM me here if your interested-it is gonna go on ebay in the coming weeks but I thought I would offer it up first here to the community-I am looking for a fair price-I'll never get what I have invested into it and don't expect to-thats ok with me-I do it for the love of these machines.The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is a fresh Triple EEE REBUILD WITH NEW CRANK BEARINGS,CRANK,PISTON,RINGS,NEW RESLEEVED CYLINDER,TOP AND BOTTOM SEALS,and is still in need of heat cycles and break in period.All other operating sytems on it as well are new and it looks Showroom condition.


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 Post subject: fl350
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:36 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Kansas
Sweet, that is a great restoration job!!!! If you havent rode yet, you are going to love the pipe. What carb and reed cage are you using? Tell us your ride results.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: New Jersey
Hi-the reeds are Boyseens and the carb is a Kiehin 35mm PWK-the reed cage was installed with the Engine so there are no air leaks(checked it before I installed it into frame)-I will try to ride it to adjust the front end-it's gonna take some time to dial it in, I havent really seen to many reviews of the front A- arm system to date but are looking forward to getting some first hand knowledge and time on it and providing it to the guys.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22131
Location: Chicago
Now your felling better you going to take this thing out for a spin?


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