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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
Thanks for the help-any thoughts on the FOX AIRS by chance from looking at the chart by chance?
There was a stock 450r set for sale on ebay for a 06 went for like 250+ shipping.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:00 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
I have zero knowledge in airs, sorry.

Heres a pic of the trx +2 on a pilot for spring set up.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:12 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
If you would collect data for his kit.

Weight tire and wheel with spindle bolted in it with caliper and pads.

Weight shock used.

put scale under front tire and set in bike and have some one read scale( with shock installed or insert set at ride height)

Mesure from lower pivot center line to lower shock bolt

Measure for lower center pivot to center of lower ball joint

Vertical wheel travle based on shock used.

With the frame levle right to left, measure shock angle

Note: While at ride height and frame levle check your camber with the toe set at zero ( measure at disc front and back). Just curious in the pic it look all off. Since you can not adjust the stock arms some tweeking may be needed.

Thanks, Adnoh


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:48 am
Posts: 186
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Mudbogger wrote:
"The works shocks that are used for the stock FL350 front suspension would be too short. The kit is designed to use stock shocks from a quad. Any 400 or 450 size shocks will work, as long as they are 16 3/8" eye to eye."
Travel is the same as the donor quad arms, and quad shocks, which is usually around 8.4".

Now using the chart from FOX-I would like to purchase the same shocks as my CO PILOT has, 2.0 SERIES/ 1.25 shaft non coil over air shocks-but do I purchase them at a total length of 16.29 extended length-or a little longer like 18.29 they list?I am confused if the 15 inch shock or 16 inch shock is the right one-I have the 16's on my CO PILOT.The 16 inch has the right travel as specified by Kawonda-but should I measure go by his measurements?


Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for the help-any thoughts on the FOX AIRS by chance from looking at the chart by chance?
There was a stock 450r set for sale on ebay for a 06 went for like 250+ shipping.


Do you know what the stroke is on the ATV shocks Kawonda recommended? The 16.3" long Fox airs only have 4.5" stroke. If the ATV shocks have more than 4.5" stroke, then you would be losing wheel travel by running the Fox Air's. Going up to the next size Fox air (18.3" long) may cause issues with maxing out the ball joints/rod ends on the suspension where it connects to the uprights at full droop. You could find out for sure by just letting the arms droop down until they stop, then measure the distance between the holes in the upper and lower shock mounts.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Awaiting a reply from Kawonda on the stroke of the 06 trx FRONT SHOCKS- he has a set in stock used for a good price.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
JustMtb44 wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
"The works shocks that are used for the stock FL350 front suspension would be too short. The kit is designed to use stock shocks from a quad. Any 400 or 450 size shocks will work, as long as they are 16 3/8" eye to eye."
Travel is the same as the donor quad arms, and quad shocks, which is usually around 8.4".

Now using the chart from FOX-I would like to purchase the same shocks as my CO PILOT has, 2.0 SERIES/ 1.25 shaft non coil over air shocks-but do I purchase them at a total length of 16.29 extended length-or a little longer like 18.29 they list?I am confused if the 15 inch shock or 16 inch shock is the right one-I have the 16's on my CO PILOT.The 16 inch has the right travel as specified by Kawonda-but should I measure go by his measurements?


Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for the help-any thoughts on the FOX AIRS by chance from looking at the chart by chance?
There was a stock 450r set for sale on ebay for a 06 went for like 250+ shipping.


Do you know what the stroke is on the ATV shocks Kawonda recommended? The 16.3" long Fox airs only have 4.5" stroke. If the ATV shocks have more than 4.5" stroke, then you would be losing wheel travel by running the Fox Air's. Going up to the next size Fox air (18.3" long) may cause issues with maxing out the ball joints/rod ends on the suspension where it connects to the uprights at full droop. You could find out for sure by just letting the arms droop down until they stop, then measure the distance between the holes in the upper and lower shock mounts.



Thanks for the help, I will measure it tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
adnoh wrote:
I have zero knowledge in airs, sorry.

Heres a pic of the trx +2 on a pilot for spring set up.


you happen to have a link for that chart by chance Adnoh?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
KAWONDA has replied the 06 TRX SHOCKS have a stroke of 4.5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Location: Benson, NC
nice, cant wait to hear your review of how it performs.

whats the deal with fox airs, vs something like works or elkas? just more adjustment and no heat fade ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:08 am 
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Posts: 186
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Sunblock wrote:
whats the deal with fox airs, vs something like works or elkas? just more adjustment and no heat fade ?

Not really any more adjustable, but different. Still susceptible to fading in prolonged rough terrain, but I have never noticed any loss of performance with mine.

You can change spring rate and ride height by changing the nitrogen pressure instead of swapping springs. The compression and rebound damping can be changed by taking the shocks apart (easy) and putting in different shims. The oil level can be tuned to give a more progressive spring rate so that the shocks don't bottom out too easily.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:39 am 
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Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
JustMtb44 wrote:
Sunblock wrote:
whats the deal with fox airs, vs something like works or elkas? just more adjustment and no heat fade ?

Not really any more adjustable, but different. Still susceptible to fading in prolonged rough terrain, but I have never noticed any loss of performance with mine.

You can change spring rate and ride height by changing the nitrogen pressure instead of swapping springs. The compression and rebound damping can be changed by taking the shocks apart (easy) and putting in different shims. The oil level can be tuned to give a more progressive spring rate so that the shocks don't bottom out too easily.


I definatly felt the FADE in the 2nd lap of my last race! after about an hour and 30 minutes...
I will look at getting rezzies like hoser has on mine after I clean up all my other projects...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Measured the LT arms today for the shocks.I got 17 inches total at full droop and 12.5 at total compression measuring eyelid to eyelid.I did experience some binding of the tie rods on the frame rail at top compression, and on the sub frame at total droop, but this is without the shock mounted and everything hand tight.I sent over a email to Kawonda for some help on this,I am assuming SHOCKS will prevent the binding if made to fit the kit, and the 06 trx shocks have bump stops in them already to limit the compression.Kawonda has emailed me letting me know the kit is designed for use of a 06 trx shock.I would like to purchase a set of FOX AIR'S as well as the 06 trx fronts to compare them on a ride.Any ideas on the FOX'S or WORKS adnoh?Also he emailed me to let me know the stroke is 3.5 not 4.5 on the TRX SHOCKS.I am thinking the 16 inch FOX AIRS might be able to go on this kit-your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Posts: 5523
Location: New Jersey
JustMtb44 wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
"The works shocks that are used for the stock FL350 front suspension would be too short. The kit is designed to use stock shocks from a quad. Any 400 or 450 size shocks will work, as long as they are 16 3/8" eye to eye."
Travel is the same as the donor quad arms, and quad shocks, which is usually around 8.4".

Now using the chart from FOX-I would like to purchase the same shocks as my CO PILOT has, 2.0 SERIES/ 1.25 shaft non coil over air shocks-but do I purchase them at a total length of 16.29 extended length-or a little longer like 18.29 they list?I am confused if the 15 inch shock or 16 inch shock is the right one-I have the 16's on my CO PILOT.The 16 inch has the right travel as specified by Kawonda-but should I measure go by his measurements?


Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for the help-any thoughts on the FOX AIRS by chance from looking at the chart by chance?
There was a stock 450r set for sale on ebay for a 06 went for like 250+ shipping.


Do you know what the stroke is on the ATV shocks Kawonda recommended? The 16.3" long Fox airs only have 4.5" stroke. If the ATV shocks have more than 4.5" stroke, then you would be losing wheel travel by running the Fox Air's. Going up to the next size Fox air (18.3" long) may cause issues with maxing out the ball joints/rod ends on the suspension where it connects to the uprights at full droop. You could find out for sure by just letting the arms droop down until they stop, then measure the distance between the holes in the upper and lower shock mounts.


17" total length at full droop eyelid to eyelid
12.5 total length at full compression


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
fox air shock chart:

2.0 SERIES NON COIL-OVER AIR SHOCKS
(1.250 DIAMETER SHAFT)
980-99-013-A 4.0 A/S BLUE,CADMIUM 15.29 11.29 N/A
980-02-013-A 4.0 A/S BLACK,CADMIUM 15.29 11.29 N/A
980-03-013-A 4.0 A/S BLUE,CHROME 15.29 11.29 N/A
980-04-013-A 4.0 A/S BLACK,CHROME 15.29 11.29 N/A

980-99-014-A 4.5 A/S 16.29 11.79 N/A
980-02-014-A 4.5 A/S BLACK,CADMIUM 16.29 11.79 N/A
980-03-014-A 4.5 A/S BLUE,CHROME 16.29 11.79 N/A
980-04-014-A 4.5 A/S BLACK,CHROME 16.29 11.79 N/A

980-99-015-A 5.5 A/S BLUE,CADMIUM 18.29 12.79 N/A
980-02-015-A 5.5 A/S BLACK,CADMIUM 18.29 12.79 N/A
980-03-015-A 5.5 A/S BLUE,CHROME 18.29 12.79 N/A
980-04-015-A 5.5 A/S BLACK,CHROME 18.29 12.79 N/A

980-99-016-A 8.5 A/S 24.09 15.59 N/A
980-02-016-A 8.5 A/S BLACK,CADMIUM 24.09 15.59 N/A
980-03-016-A 8.5 A/S BLUE,CHROME 24.09 15.59 N/A
980-04-016-A 8.5 A/S BLACK,CHROME 24.09 15.59 N/A

980-99-018-A 10.0 A/S BLUE,CADMIUM 27.19 17.19 N/A
980-02-018-A 10.0 A/S BLACK,CADMIUM 27.19 17.19 N/A
980-03-018-A 10.0 A/S BLUE,CHROME 27.19 17.19 N/A

first number is the stock number for the shock, 2nd is the travel amount for each shock, 3rd number is the overall extended length, 4this the collapsed length of the shock.The 14 inch shock looks like it is the best for my measurements.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 1951
Location: near NJ rider
"did experience some binding of the tie rods on the frame rail at top compression, and on the sub frame at total droop"

Mud, basically you want to get the most travel without the issues you mentioned above or fully bottoming the frame on a big hit.Do you or anyone else know what the clearance is on a fully bottomed stock pilot?This would be a good place to start.Lets say its between 2"and 4",install the tires you plan to use,with no shocks,lower the front of the car down onto a spacer the same thickness as the clearance you want,say a 2 by 4.Now measure the distance between the shock mount holes.This is your shock collapsed length,look at the fox chart to find the best fit.Now raise the front until you experiance the binding you mentioned in the steering.You want to stop before you start binding ,so start measuring between the shock mount holes again until you find a length that matches the fox chart and the shock you chose earlier.This is the extended shock length.You may have to remove and adjust the upper shock tabs to get the ideal shock setup because kowanda set it up for stock shocks,but since you have a fabricator helping you this shouldn't be a problem.

A few other things to consider,

The stock tires will compress with inpact so you want to take this into account when deciding on the total bottomed clearance height.This is why i said to find what a stock pilot is,and just use that number to be safe.

Fox airs have a built in bumpstop,so your good there.

You want to try to get the shock as close to 90deg. to the lower arm as possible when fully bottomed.This is why you may have to move the tabs.

Lower arms should be parallel to the ground with you in it ready to ride,this is your ride height.(I think this should be close to 60% of the total shock travel)

Hope this helps,no one else seemed to want to explain it to you so i thought i would give it a shot.

"I'm not a suspension expert, but i did stay at a holiday in last night"


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Posts: 5523
Location: New Jersey
bullnerd wrote:
"did experience some binding of the tie rods on the frame rail at top compression, and on the sub frame at total droop"

Mud, basically you want to get the most travel without the issues you mentioned above or fully bottoming the frame on a big hit.Do you or anyone else know what the clearance is on a fully bottomed stock pilot?This would be a good place to start.Lets say its between 2"and 4",install the tires you plan to use,with no shocks,lower the front of the car down onto a spacer the same thickness as the clearance you want,say a 2 by 4.Now measure the distance between the shock mount holes.This is your shock collapsed length,look at the fox chart to find the best fit.Now raise the front until you experiance the binding you mentioned in the steering.You want to stop before you start binding ,so start measuring between the shock mount holes again until you find a length that matches the fox chart and the shock you chose earlier.This is the extended shock length.You may have to remove and adjust the upper shock tabs to get the ideal shock setup because kowanda set it up for stock shocks,but since you have a fabricator helping you this shouldn't be a problem.

A few other things to consider,

The stock tires will compress with inpact so you want to take this into account when deciding on the total bottomed clearance height.This is why i said to find what a stock pilot is,and just use that number to be safe.

Fox airs have a built in bumpstop,so your good there.

You want to try to get the shock as close to 90deg. to the lower arm as possible when fully bottomed.This is why you may have to move the tabs.

Lower arms should be parallel to the ground with you in it ready to ride,this is your ride height.(I think this should be close to 60% of the total shock travel)

Hope this helps,no one else seemed to want to explain it to you so i thought i would give it a shot.

"I'm not a suspension expert, but i did stay at a holiday in last night"


it has helped thanks!.When I measured today I took into account the binding issues and cut back both compression and droop 1/2 each to give me some room so it does not bind on either, but I did not use tires on the front end and I was not sitting in it.when the suspension is at full droop, the shock is near 90 degrees-I'll put a degree meter on it when I get the set of shocks on it.I have 1 from Craftsman that works well.I like the FOX AIRS as you stated due to the bump stops.Kawonda replied back to me the kit is designed for 06 TRX450r shocks to prevent the binding issues we speak of.I ordered a set from him, they are used, but I will mount them , take some photos, measurements, weights,etc for the thread.I am curious as to there degree on the lower arms now that you have mentioned it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 1951
Location: near NJ rider
"I did not use tires on the front end and I was not sitting in it"-You do not have to be sitting in it for this measurement,but you do need the tires mounted.

"when the suspension is at full droop, the shock is near 90 degrees"-You want to measure this at full compression,90 deg. to the lower arm.This is not super important but it shouldn't go beyond 90.

I'll try to find some pics to splain what i'm saying.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
bullnerd wrote:
"I did not use tires on the front end and I was not sitting in it"-You do not have to be sitting in it for this measurement,but you do need the tires mounted.

"when the suspension is at full droop, the shock is near 90 degrees"-You want to measure this at full compression,90 deg. to the lower arm.This is not super important but it shouldn't go beyond 90.

I'll try to find some pics to splain what i'm saying.


COOL, THANK YOU!.I want to try to get the kit as good as it can get, and inform others of it's options as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
This is full bump,see the shock to lower arm angle,and the clearance under the frame.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:57 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Bullnerd that's some cool looking cad work. Mudbogger, The shaft # may be a little off ( 3.5 or 4.5) If you raise the bump stop up on the shaft and mesure the shaft lenght fromt where it screws to the lower piece and measure up to the body it should be around 4.125". The stock trx450R has 8.5 inches of travle so one could say its a 2 to 1 Lever Ratio. We can assume at a 2 to 1 LR an air at 4.5 inch shaft travle will yield 9" of vertical wheel travle. Your measurment on the storke for the trx is pretty close to what works make. At one time Works told me they could built just about any shock wraped around a 5-3/4" inch shaft max. If we stick with teh 2 to 1 that would translate to 11.5 inches of travle. So how do they 12 without a 6" shaft. I would most likly say the 2 to 1 is not completly accurate thu it's entire stroke. I would thinnk it vary from 2.232 to 1.768 thu stroke. Since works list the extended at 17-3/4. I would use this as a max for the stock 450R If for some reason you can not get this something may be wrong. I would unbolt tie rod ends and check then recheck with them bolted up. When checking I would suggest doing so with the whell s not only straight but turned to full stop. As you do this with the whells turned the toe should change and will help set toe setting for the longer travle at extended. You do not want yu rims rubbing. The bump kit may take most of this out only playing with the lenght and postion will tell. A little toe out on bump is ok. Run the suspenion thu its strok with the wheels at full stop and yu will see what I mean. Even if the bump steer is almost zero ( toe change on bump) with them straight it will change as the wheel is turned and then cycled. As you run more sag the bump steer is more controlable. This is because of the feel is noticable on bump. Not to say it not important on droop just not as much. If it changes to much per inch of travle it will dance across the woops and efect steering angle on turnes and you will have to do too much steering correction at the wheel. Camber is another issue. Since the stock arms are not adjustable I sure hope is the builder had them set correctly to stock. If not you can experence what we did on the 250r getting to much positive camber due to the lenght of the upper arm and mounting point. SO calculte the camber factor into your sag # so it does not gain too camber during body role or roll stiffness will need to be added or an upper adjustable arm will be needed to dial in static negitve camber at ride height. SO get a propesed sag % set the suspenoin at that ride height and then cycle the suspenion to see what the camber gain is from ride hieght during droop and bump Log the camber # static and chart droop change and bump change. The stock arms are set up at Zero and will change thu stroke. SO where does teh factory set ther sag, see the problem. Usally one would want a set up 1 to 3 Deg negitive at ride height for a static setting for cornoring traction. Heres a pic of a article I have on set up of atv arms. Since the kit is designed to stock I would log all the info as is the way it was intended before changing things around.

Just some thought so far. By chance you weight the parts removed and added for comparison for cornor weight.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
I played hooky form work and played in the garage I tore apart a perfectly good trx and got some numbers. I logged bunch of info on the stock arms and shocks. Any way here is some of the numbers I came up with. Hope it helps with shock ranging


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TRX 450R Front Wheel Travel #'s.JPG
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
I played hooky form work and played in the garage I tore apart a perfectly good trx and got some numbers. I logged bunch of info on the stock arms and shocks. Any way here is some of the numbers I came up with. Hope it helps with shock ranging


WOW now that's above the call of duty thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
IS IT CHRISTMAS? WOW thanks for all the help on this, holy cow!! I mean really, what the hell is going on here, thanks so much to all of you for the pictures and measurements!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
You all are welcome, I for one want this kit to be the best it can be for all die hard 350 guys. The ony way to know is do the work.

I have good data on the geomerty as you proceed with the set up after you get your shocks and establish a race sag or idea of ride height. The bump kit tie rod lenght and location against the stock as well as camber gain/loss and caster at diffeent shaft positions and stoke cycling and as well as arm angles.

Bullnerd, I would like to here form you on the importance of the 90 deg relation ship ( arms to shock)at full bump other than shock angle thu stroke effecting LR's. I never new is was important.

I will be updating the info as I go looging itinto excell for auto updating. On VWT there should be an S for Stock VWT and M for Max VWT. so one can do stoke work on bump and compression acording to body shaft and oveal lenghts. This will help with the toe/camber and caster changes at differnt VWT movment. The sag setting will effect this according the bump kit The MFG built and comparing it to stock. An example of this Stock bump steer starts at 1.875 from SE inches of shaft travle which toes in thu bump. So do we want the shaft lenght vesers body lenght to go in the extended to keep stock bump and add travle in the droop. The down side here is the camber goes positive to MVWT on the up side goint to MSC the camber goes a touch negitive but the toe increases by 1/4". SO Mybe the best would be longer eye to eye of 17 1/8" and shaft of 5 1/2. This should smooth out the transitin and add more travle. Works can build this shock by using the base shaft and adding shaftt shim to control MSC and toe in on bump. The next thing would be to change the camber by 1/4 to 1/2 in negitive for the addded MVWT. This can be accomplished by reworking the upper stock arm. One can simply cut off the balll joint weld in new threaded colar and use new ball joint. Or cut off stock ball and drill it out and install one with longer threaded shaft and put nut on each side. The nice advantage here would be you can adjsut the camber by just loosing the nuts and moving the camber with out removing ball from spindle. This should take the travle to around 11" of smooth dart free travle. The olny thing to consider is the bump kit set up with the weel turned full stop and cycle thu bump from sag here is where one would want smooth or no bump steer for eratic steering. So setting the sag and roll stiffness is key here.

Oh well time to go dig in the dirt and work on spreed sheet. Maybe it would be nice to here form MFG on thoought to see how he designed the bimp kit to control toe change on bump with wheels tured as one would be cornoring.


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TRX 450R Front Wheel Travel #'s. revised 4-3JPG.JPG [48.8 KiB]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Still awaiting the 06 trx 450r shocks I purchased Adnoh, then I'll take them to my buddies shop and start weights, etc for you.I got the rims and tires today I will be running on this Odyssey,so we can be caster settings and such as well.


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