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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:28 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Making progress on the steering, more to come. Fab guy has made a sweet item for this!


Attachments:
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
Looks good Mudd,hopefully theres some bushing material in there somewhere and not steel on steel.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
These are to be welded between the frame and subframe from what he has told me. Also they have a zerk fitting installed so they are fully greased. I do not have idea on bushings but will ask for sure.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
bullnerd wrote:
Looks good Mudd,hopefully theres some bushing material in there somewhere and not steel on steel.



The original design was steel on steel Liewire and some of his Darkside friends insist this is not a problem can only assume they never use their machines or are now too embarrassed to admit it is a problem.

You/we already know this I just like to point out the facts every chance I get simply because this was all discussed minutes the Pilot Odyssey group seen detail pictures of his 'lawyer links' metal on metal thing.

Its not rocket science the majority predicted what the problems would be and we were proven to be 100% right and Liewire was 100% wrong, one owner had his steering lock up at a race and he crashed, Turbotexas had his lock up while riding in the desert then it locked up just setting in the back of his toy hauler, details on the locked up steering start on page 1 of this thread viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9292

Image



If people want the orignal install of this 2700.00 Afterthought "kit" by Turbotexas you can read it here Redoing the after shock a-arm install viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3267 17 pages 400 replies almost 17,000 page views.



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Update, my fab guy has been slowly working on this setup all week. I had him send me over a few quick pictures via text but I just got a new phone and are having issues gettting the sotware into laptop to download. The heims are history, the brackets pictured in the thread have been tacked onto the outside of the subframe and frame, and some plate steel has been fabbed into brackets that now support the upper lawyer links. It has incredible turning radius currently, but we need to tweak it so the linkage that came with the Liewire kit does not hit the a-arms at full droop. This is being addressed currently, probably tomorrow will get some pictrues up on the modifications made so far. It is modeled off Fully's pictures to some degree.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Here is an update on the steering linkage on this ride. My fab guy took the hiem joints out completely, fabbed new longer lawyer links, cut the outer tie rods and rewelded them smaller in length, and fabbed some new linkage brackets. The steering is incredible from lock to lock.
First the main brackets and the location on the frame:

Attachment:
IMG00110-20120525-1419.jpg
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Next linkage he fabbed that attaches the new bracket to the lawyer links-the inner lawyer links are all new, longer than the original.

Attachment:
IMG00111-20120525-1419.jpg
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Another view of the bracket that is mounted between the main frame and Liewire subframe;

Attachment:
IMG00112-20120525-1419.jpg
IMG00112-20120525-1419.jpg [ 40.09 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]


Here is a look at the new lawyer links and general throw of the linkage;

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IMG00114-20120525-1420.jpg
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side view-see the bracket where the hiem was?

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IMG00109-20120525-1418.jpg
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side view-see the bracket where the hiem was?

The steering is set in this picture at full turn, any more and the lower part of the spindle will hit the a-arm at full droop.The old hiems still are in a position to rotate up and down with the arms as they compress and droop in the suspension cycle:

Attachment:
IMG00113-20120525-1420.jpg
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More pictures. Here is the shortened outer tie rod itself;

Attachment:
IMG00108-20120525-1418.jpg
IMG00108-20120525-1418.jpg [ 51.29 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Here is a rear picture of the new pre filter alignment as well.
Also better picture of the outer tie rod that was shortened and welded, the hiem was removed as well because it was frozen in there and lubed before installation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm
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Location: New Mexico
Nice work Mud.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
I thing it looks good. Only problem I see is everything is metal to metal? Why? Why doesnt the swing end have a hyme on it and 2 tabs comming off the lawer link to connect to the hyme. Sorry mud the fab work looks awsome and the concept is great but the way its done wasn't well thought out. All your stress is on the threads of the bolt holding the lawer link to the swing. I would replace the end of the swing with a cromolly hyme and have 2 tabs come off the lawyer link (top and bottom) and use a grade 8 bolt that is shielded so no threads are in your stress point. Other then that it looks great.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for the opinions on it fellas!. My fab guy mentioned he did not like the idea of hiem to heim connections- like in this case the frame bracket to new longer lawyer link-he said it gave the linkage more slop and it did not have any type of solid mount. He feels the flat piece of steel welded provided more surface area and a stronger mount bolted as pictured then a heim to heim.You believe this area to be a stess point correct? I will see him this weekend and definitely inquire about the method your stating shoubadaba to see his feelings on it. The pictures are the current stage of the kit, it is not by any stage complete so nuts, bolts and such will be replaced with grade 8 hardware and final welding is to be completed. The present set up has not "slop" like the previous kit, it is smooth and tight which was something I wanted. I did not feel the stress was just exclusively going to the 1 bolt to be honest I was more concerned about the flat plate welded to the lawyer link itself as an area of stress. Thoughts?
Oh on the bracket welded to the frame there is a urethane bushing inside the shaft lining it.Dunno were he got it from but it is in there. A zerk fitting will be installed on it as well.This is the area shoubadaba your questioning correct?


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023.jpg
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:34 am 
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Location: New Jersey
Shoubadaba, I read the thread again and must apologize I did not fully understand it but after a cup of coffee I got it. The only thing that has entered my mind is the 2 tabs on the lawyer link you speak of, it is not that big of a OD for the tabs to be welded onto it for the hiem to slide in, would going on the top and bottom on the lawyer link prove to be a critical error and be just a bigger stress point?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
I believe it would be stronger because they will be welded on top and bottom of the link instead of out the side. In your steering system the point we are speaking of is where most or your stress will be. Looks like what he made is threaded into your swing system so you could always down the road try it the way I was talking about. All your progress and work looks great hope I didn't offend you by my questons.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
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Location: Chandler, AZ
By having metal on metal your creating a place for dirt, mud, and rust to collect and freeze up just like the bar sliding through the heim on the old setup.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
shoubadaba wrote:
I believe it would be stronger because they will be welded on top and bottom of the link instead of out the side. In your steering system the point we are speaking of is where most or your stress will be. Looks like what he made is threaded into your swing system so you could always down the road try it the way I was talking about. All your progress and work looks great hope I didn't offend you by my questons.


NOT AT ALL! I appreciate you fellas wacthing the thread and will be discussing the points taken here with my fab guy for sure.!!


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:31 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
afastcar wrote:
By having metal on metal your creating a place for dirt, mud, and rust to collect and freeze up just like the bar sliding through the heim on the old setup.


Agreed, so the 2 tabs on the lawyer link with heim inserted in middle -bolt through is the main topic for discussion,any else you guys feel needs attention? I know you both are very welled schooled at the fabrication of these a arm systems and appreicate any imput! Seriously, no joking, I do really appreciate the help!! :-)


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 12:45 am 
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Location: Upland, Ca
Everything else looks great man. Your giving this odyssey new life how are you going to chose which machine to ride now?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:44 am 
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Location: Chandler, AZ
Your stuff always looks good! I would just hate to see your steering lock up:)


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:41 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
shoubadaba wrote:
Everything else looks great man. Your giving this odyssey new life how are you going to chose which machine to ride now?


You know I have no clue-I just got a bigger trailer (8x20) so I can know trailer 2-3 on each ride which is cool. I got way to many rides but I love this ody!!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2891
Location: Wichita ks
I think its a prety unigue setup myself. Upon final assembly you may want to turn the pivot blot the other direction and add some kind of safty like drill a hole through the bolt and insert a cotter. By turing the bolt around if you loose the nut and steering gets sloppy the way it is the bolt will fall out and you will roll test the new and improved PPE. Gravity a bitch. I will alomst ganatee the metal to metal will work that nut loose greasesert or not. I would also look into longer bolt where the pivots end attaches to the the link so a cotter can/safty wire be added there as well. A nylon washer between the flat washer and tab on both sides will help with the nut working loose. To say blot steel washer nylon washer then insert in tab and where it comes thru the other tab install nylon washer steel washer, locking nut and safty. This will also reduce friction forces on the washer and pivot on the inside of the tabs where the pivot swings reucing wear. Run it past you fab guy and get his opion on this as well as it's his design and I'm arm chair quarter backing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Adnoh, he agrees with the nylon washers and will add them.Also grade 8 will be used and we will safety wrap everything(we had to tie all our bolts and nuts when we raced AMA back in the day) I ran by him the thoughts on the tabs that shoubadaba posted instead of the flat metal piece which is welded to the lawyer links- he is very open to idea! We are going to try this set up for a ride or 2 with intentions to check linkages on the trail in regards to suspension droop, jumps, and rocky terrain for wear, bending, imperfections in anything and then move forward and install the tabs as shoubadaba pointed out. I also would just like to see how this set up performs as well, so it can be perfected for others that have the kit.
Your thoughts as too doing this testing? Should I just go with the tabs right now? I see no reason not to test this personally. Cannot hurt in my opinion, or should I say I hope it will not hurt me!!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Went down to check on the PPE this morning. My fab guy spoke to me in great length about the set up we have currently. He feels that the 2 tabs welded onto the inner tie rod with hiem between does increase "double shear" and is a good thing as shoubadaba posted. But in this case he feels the method he has designed provides "radius" play and also reduces the play associated with a hiem in it's place. If we installed a hiem with 2 tabs welded onto the inner tie rod the radius play is there but also the hiem provides way to much "up and down" play which goes directly back into my steering wheel. We did a quick setup as well and it indeed provided way to much play in the wheel, the set up he has currently in a sense is using the same theory with the tab off the tie rod sliding into the 2 machined joint as pictured here.And it also had much less play in it when using the existing set up over the hiem attachment to the inner tie rod.He also feels that the method of attachment he has fabbed is still providing some double shear, admittedly less he adds then the tabs but still plenty for the system.
He is going to install nylon washers in both sides where the tie rod tab is attaching to the machined links as adnoh posted. We will safety wrap and or drill holes for cotters pins.
Any thoughts imput on the conversation are very welcomed!!!


Attachments:
File comment: this set up is the one he feels helps with double shear but understands does not eliminate it.
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File comment: This tab is the one designed to prevent the up and down the heim it replaces
20120602_110941.jpg
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File comment: He machined this union to eliminate play and will insert nylon bushings under the washers when finished and torqued
20120602_111000.jpg
20120602_111000.jpg [ 87.54 KiB | Viewed 1089 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
My RIGID LED lights came in last night. Look great, I will hooking them up in the future. Appears I can use the stock OEM mounts with these as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Posts: 185
Location: Aurora, IL
Mudbogger wrote:
My RIGID LED lights came in last night. Look great, I will hooking them up in the future. Appears I can use the stock OEM mounts with these as well.

Awesome! You're gonna love them! And, yes, they will mount to the factory brackets. Which ones did you end up getting? Floods? Spots?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Nelly wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
My RIGID LED lights came in last night. Look great, I will hooking them up in the future. Appears I can use the stock OEM mounts with these as well.

Awesome! You're gonna love them! And, yes, they will mount to the factory brackets. Which ones did you end up getting? Floods? Spots?

Spots I think sir!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Nelly wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
My RIGID LED lights came in last night. Look great, I will hooking them up in the future. Appears I can use the stock OEM mounts with these as well.

Awesome! You're gonna love them! And, yes, they will mount to the factory brackets. Which ones did you end up getting? Floods? Spots?

Spots I think sir!


Does RIGID make LED light bars for the brake light? Nelly werent you replacing your stock inlet/brake light with one of these?


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