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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
hoser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
I went and tryed quickly to extend the lawyer links using the hiems and as stated the outer tie rods are too long. I will look into getting these links shortened by locla shop for me. I do have to consider as stared the ride height and suspension travel into the lengths though as they might hit the sub frame at full droop. Actually if you extend them outward though it would pull the outer tie rod away from the frame and both arms but will it cause binding when the suspension is compressed?



Can you compare lengths to new parts maybe Turbo was delivered wrong parts from day one?


I can do so if new parts are fabbed, Turbo probably had these parts in here for a long while. Did Turbo replace any that your aware off?


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
bullnerd wrote:
This is just my opinion but I would not change the length of any of those parts just yet.You can not guess at where the inner tie rod pivots are located.

If you go to Fullys thread I basically explained it there how to find this point very easily.

We can go through it here again if you want.


If you could that would be great! I would not like fab all new lawyers and such if I can get the current system to work.
Hey if I have take it completely apart to get it right I am all for it. Thanks for helping


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
I am reading the "fully" thread and I have already seen 1 main issue with my system and all the others pictured. These lawyer links off the steering shaft goes directly through a heim which limits the amount of left to right steering. In all the others pictured in the thread they do not have such limits. This is an issue that I would love to resolve. I do understand most of the tech from 'bullnerd' about pivot point and such.
Any ideas on how I could get around the heim? I am thinking I need to see if I can remove that inner heim and place something like this picture in it's place:
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This would totally resolve the limiting of the left to right issues I am having. Any ideas? Here is a picture of my tie rod from top view, it is no where near the middle of the pivot points:
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Mabye install a mount like that off the frame near where the hiem is currently located? I wish I knew how to use photoshop I would illustrate it here in this picture:
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IMG00806-20120508-1917.jpg
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
measurement of the lawyer link with the steering at dead center, this measurement is from the hiem to the end of the lawyer link, it shows a little of just how much travel is limited with this set-up.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Took some time off this steering to install new harnesses and hand restraints.
Attachment:
IMG00803-20120508-1706.jpg
IMG00803-20120508-1706.jpg [ 65.24 KiB | Viewed 781 times ]


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
You can fix it without changing the lawyer links or tie rods. Now that I think of it. If you simply move the hymes that are atatched to the frame and inch or so towards the center of the buggy you give the laser Li.k more room to move


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
shoubadaba wrote:
You can fix it without changing the lawyer links or tie rods. Now that I think of it. If you simply move the hymes that are atatched to the frame and inch or so towards the center of the buggy you give the laser Li.k more room to move


good point indeed! That would resolve the issue of side to side length as well. But you know the heim system is really not good and this has got me thinking of just getting rid of them all together.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2032
Location: near NJ rider
Personally,if your going to copy that style,copy this one.The swing set pivots the same direction as the spindle.
It really comes down to how much fabricating you want to do.
I think what you have there could be made to work ok,but it is really hard to tell from just pics excactly what is going on.
Again I would pull the shocks,set the car at ride height(lower arms level to the ground),then if you want try the steering.Trying to set it up with the front sky high is not right to me anyway.
Maybe take a video of the steering?


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:48 am
Posts: 186
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Looking at the pictures, the camber of the right front wheel is way off. You have to fix that before you mess with the steering. It looks like the ball joints that connect to the uprights are adjustable, can you use that to change the camber?


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Yes they can be adjusted.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
I took several hours trying to adjust the camber on the front end tonight-every time I did it at full droop I would set it back down to ride hieght and each and every time it would have issues with the right side. It would not have negative camber. To get near negative camber I had to adjust the bottom tie rod almost 3/4 of the way out, and that can not be good at all.I tryed installing the tie rods in all the way, every option I could think of, my back was screaming like a school girl at a Brett Michaels concert when I got done but to no avail. I am not sure how Turbo had the front end set up at 1 time, but it sure isnt worth a pot to piss in right now.
I measyred my lawyer links and tie rods, lawyer links are 7 1/4 nd the tie rods are 12 inches as well.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2032
Location: near NJ rider
My next question would be,are those the correct lenght shocks for that kit?
"Full droop" might be way too far?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Will measure the shocks tonight.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Ok, got the tires on both sides to a about 1 inch of negative camber on full droop. The tires are aligned straight, no toe in or out currently. The negative camber helped greatly in regards to steering, but it still is not good enough for me. The heims are preventing the lock to lock from occuring. Now should I have the tires toe out just a touch, and if so how much? What is the most common used amount? ASlso these shocks are very soft, the front end on throttle will rise 6-8 inches min when on the gas, using this I adjusted the camber on the tires to accomendate this increase in suspension down force when on the throttle, which worked better but still, turning right especially is poor, very poor.
I am going to take the ody down to fab shop tomorrow and see if I can do several things:
1 GET RID OF THE UPPER TIE ROD ENDS AND CHANGE THEM TO HIEMS.
2 FAB a system like Fully's or the Kawonda style off the frame and attache the 2 hiems there,removing the hiem all together.
The outer hiems are frozen into the alumn rods, need to remove and replace all of them as well.
Install stops on steering ahatfd or spindles, at full droop the Liewire made brackets hit the lower a arms and that needs to be addressed as well, could be huge safety issue.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Dropped off the PPE at fab shop today. Spent all day going through set ups and possible ways to eliminate the heims and not cuase any bumpsteer and angle issues. We have concluded the hiems will be removed, and a tube welded between the frame and subframe with an additional tube on the outside of it that will rotate in place of the hiems. We will install a zerk fitting on it as well so it can be greased to eliminate debris from entering. Even have a seal for the top anmd bottom too. This is a modified version of Fully,s more to come.
Also I. Am going to relocate both pre filters to the back.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2032
Location: near NJ rider
Sounds good,looking forward to seeing what you come with.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
We did speak in regards to adjustment of the lawyer links but I really wanted to rid myself of these hiems once and for all, which he agreed on. I will probably convert all the ends to hiems on the outer tie rods and replace existing with new.
Also my fab guy wants to try fabbing a rear bumper for the 350-it has mounts already welded on there, might be some type of hoop style we will see.
My fab guy is very concerned about the bumpsteer issues so he will double check everything before finally welding. Might be a week or 2 here for the suspension, rear bumper, and pre filter mounts to be completed.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:28 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:45 am
Posts: 1028
Location: hole above ground
Mudbogger wrote:
We did speak in regards to adjustment of the lawyer links but I really wanted to rid myself of these hiems once and for all, which he agreed on. I will probably convert all the ends to hiems on the outer tie rods and replace existing with new.
Also my fab guy wants to try fabbing a rear bumper for the 350-it has mounts already welded on there, might be some type of hoop style we will see.
My fab guy is very concerned about the bumpsteer issues so he will double check everything before finally welding. Might be a week or 2 here for the suspension, rear bumper, and pre filter mounts to be completed.


I may have a extra hoop laying around :-)
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9400

speedchaser


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
ahhh yes you might sir! perhaps PM me?
When will I see 1 of thos rear bumpers sir? I could use it as my buddy that drives the 2800 pilot is constantly hitting me!!


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Pre-filters relocated today. I love it! The bracket comes off/on with a 10mm bolt and nut. Let me know what you think! Much better then just hanging there up top flopping around.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Pre-filters relocated today. I love it! The bracket comes off/on with a 10mm bolt and nut. Let me know what you think! Much better then just hanging there up top flopping around.



Nice they look better protected in that location too take more pics next time you get it outside.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Did it have a Texas accent???
The top lights I never could get them to work for flip! The stocks worked near as I remember but were worthless... class is all faded/oxidized
I had to put the stock wheels on my pilot way back when I flipped the pilot! The steering is a different beast with oem wheels!
Have fun with her!

hoser wrote:
Mouse? A live one?

I never noticed a mouse nest in the neck collar...

The 350 was setting in my trailer the past few weeks I better set a trap inside just to make sure their are none still in the trailer, had traps set in the MH no mice their never thought about the trailer grrrr


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:43 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Mud I had to make me some 1 1/2 x1 1/2 pieces of square tubing to replace the shocks at ride height! You can turn on that junk all day while at full droop and it wont do any good! get into the seat and have a friend measure the distance between shock eye bolts! That is where your "ride height" is! Then you put her up on jack stands and shoot for the toe setting of the PIlot or Odyssey! The second set of hiems OUT from the steering knuckle are where you adjust the turn lock at! too far and you get locked up! Remember Hoser took some of these parts apart to break up the locked up parts! If you search some of the threads of mine, especially where I painted the a-arms yellow and put the freshy fresh Hoser motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) into it you can see where I reinforced the BIG Hiems that the lawyer links slide thru!
You HAVE to set this at ride hieght before you start trying to set up the camber and toe!
Looks good and PM Me if you have questions friend! I don't have the free time to come here as often as I used to so I miss alot of this!!!
Turbo!


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5550
Location: New Jersey
Thank you Turbo. And I will PM you when needed. I am hopeful these hiems will be a thing of the past soon enough and we all can move forward with this kit. My fab guy is a perfectionist and understands the effects of bumpsteer, Ackerman angles, etc as he raced odysseys in the 80's. Should be fun!
I could not get the lights to work as well so I scrapped them they were all blown out. Took all the old harnesses out as well was not needed. I am going to replace the stock lights with those RIGID lights Nelly installed on his 350 I like the look and the candlepower of them.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:33 pm
Posts: 432
Location: long island NY
Mudbogger you will love the rigid lights.i just put a 10" on my rzr and cant believe how much light it puts out.


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