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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:47 am 
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For anybody interested, I took a look at this FL400r for sale from Craigslist the other day. In all the machine is complete, with a bunch of extras and aftermarket. Looks like it has an aftermarket head as it looked Billet and has a 'KS' on it. Polished expansion chamber, V-Force reed, new/aftermarket tie-rods, bead-lock rimes new tires, some LED lights, Works shocks all around, aftermarket cushion seat and 4" wide 4/5 point harness. Probably some other things but I wasn't too sure really. I think it had the stock clutch but I wasn't positive.

Also comes with probably ~$150 worth of 'spare' parts including a full but opened gasket kit and drive belt, original lights, seatbelt, and other things. The machine was run before I got there, so it was warm; but I did run a compression test (warm) and its low at 127PSI. I also ran a borescope through the plug hole. The spark plug looks very old, that and top of the piston looks charred black (Both Indicating the machine is running very rich.) and I wasn't totally sure about the port chamfer job and piston edge. (Hence it probably needs a new top-end). I think the piston had a 25 on the top of it, so maybe a .25mm bore? Not sure.

The fuel tank had some spots of surface rust inside of it. The frame is straight and nice. There are only 1~2 small in-conciquencial cracks in the plastics. E-Brake and rear brakes are good. Front brakes need hydraulic servicing (Master? Slaves?) probably re-build or just a bleed. All lights and controls work. Rear axles, linkages, and bearings are tight. Front wheel bearings may need to be serviced (Right side was pretty loose).

While it ran OK, I believe it was lacking a lot of top-end (My F350R was WAY faster) possibly due to being overly rich (Stock Kehnin) or possibly under-compression, or maybe I needed to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) the unit for 5 minutes instead of just 2 minutes to get more heat. Anyone has any Q's please PM me.

This machine came from what I was told, "the original owner" 2 years ago out of New Mexico - so at least a 2-owner machine.
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/snw/ ... 92467.html


For me, it came down to a ~$500 difference what I was willing to spend vs what he was willing to sell it for, and so I passed on purchasing this.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:11 pm 
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SOOOOO.... I ended up picking this pilot up today regardless of the lower compression. The machine sat since the last time I saw/looked at it, and it started right up, so I said, what the heck let me get it. The price did come down enough to YEAY the deal. So, Here come the PICS after I get her a good 2-hour bath!

She came with a new belt, and an extra new belt. Service manual, spare front wheel, lug bolts and nuts, spare tranny seals, spare gaskets, carb gaskets, original head-lights, boxes of CV axle boots, spare vForce reeds, and a previous bill of sale. The pilot originally came from Albuquerque, New Mexico from a fellow named Ken Brown. Does anyone know who this is???

I already drained the tank and flushed what I could from the bottom of the carb and fuel lines/pump. Seems the fuel pump is nice and strong telling by how fast it pumped a bunch of left of crap and re-started nice after the tank flush. Some nasty bits came out some water and some rust :( I also bled the front brakes but they still suck. Cleaned the K&N filter. Also already replaced the from lug bolts and nuts since a bunch were missing and it came with 8x new ones. I replaced the BR7EIX plug with a BR7ES as I had one of those brand new. The BR7EIX was black as charcoal. I lowered the carb needle - hoping that clears up the smokey mid-range/idle.


I plan to try giving it a real test drive tomorrow! WOOHOO!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Pics



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:22 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Looks like a nice machine.
Seems to have a Kfab head from yellow dog racing. Not sure why that is.
I wouldn't even run that thing again until you check the jetting for that carb.
Also looks like original stock intake. You better do a pressure/vacuum test.
Looks like the kid in the background is having a blast lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Yes I already found a couple of YUCK things. This unit has a Mikuni fuel pump, and the pulse line was very old and so I just replaced it. I also checked the fuel filter and it was FILLED with sone yucky crud as well. Looked like either dirt or possibly some rust from the tank. I did drain the tank and rust/dirt and some water did actually come out also. I replaced the filter and the lines going to/from it as well.

I can't find anything on yellowdogracing.com's site about this head. There SEEMS to be a double metal head gasket under the head. Cant really remove it right now (Water needs to be drained :) and I'm out of time. I'm going to measure squish band right now though before I go to bed :)

I have no clue what jetting this thing is running but whatever it is its running piggy rich. It's late and I'm going to bed in just a bit


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:40 pm 
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OK so, uh... This thing must be set up for race gas, either that or someone didn't know what they were really doing??

Squish clearance is 39 thousandths. that's too tight for pump gas! I'll be running C12 110 octane as I have a 55 gallon drum for my 'toys'. Likely with that kind of squish and the low compression, the top-end needs to be serviced.

Another strange thing I never see with the squish reading, is it measured 45 thousandths at the piston edge, and about 1/2" inward is started to measure tighter down to 39 thousandths. This should never be the case as most heads I've seen should have a relieving angle greater than the piston crown's angle. Only other thing I can think of is someone put a regular piston in this thing instead of a flat-top, or theres a small perhaps chance the piston in this thing is getting a little roached around the edge from too low an octane.

Does anyone know if K-Fab heads are one piece or removable domes? Do they run a gasket or O-Rings?

@hoser - Why would the squish be so tight, and get tighter 1/2" from the cylinder wall like this?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
From the little bit of info I have been reading about K-fab, it appears to be part of Yellow dog racing.
It seems that they had an in house machine shop so they probably machined this head right there.
This would account for the "special" head you seem to have on your new machine.

At the end of the day here, since you have suspect compression and suspect head squish, I would if it was my machine, take it apart.
Your compression -- poo, squish -- poo, jetting -- poo, gas tank -- poo, filter full of poo, original stock hard as rock intake, pressure/vacuum unknown ---------------- need I say anymore ?? Why destroy your new toy. Start over.


Edit: Pull that fuel tank and take it to a rad shop to be cleaned/coated properly. Just a thought.
Edit 2: Just for fun try to pull your axels and see if they come out and have been lubed. I do this on my FL350's every year. I bet very few do this to their oddy's but they will take out the splines if they don't.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:51 pm 
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So I could not help myself because we're going to test this thing out a bit tomorrow. I pulled the head. Looks like this thing has been running a long time and so I feel like the trip tomorrow will be helpful, and also pretty safe given its an old build and still runs great.

The head has a removable dome.
I could not remove the dome so I have no clue what size in CC it is.
The dome has some very slight ever so slight pitting like sand specks. This is a sign of pre-ignition likely because the squish is too tight and fuel was pump gas. I'll be running C12 race fuel with R50 40:1 tomorrow. I've seen worse on jetski engines which ran a long time. I'll be checking the new plug's heat range tomorrow for sure.
I went ahead and scuffed out the sand specs with some 400 grid wet sandpaper for a minute. Nice and smooth now.

The K-Fab dome is cut for up to 82mm.
The piston is just a whee bit loose in the jug as it does look to be out of clearance/spec.
The cyl only has a very tiny bit of nail-catch near the exhaust port.
Theres sign of some slight surface rust on the side of one small part of the cyl, which I've seen before where the build/rebuild was very old. Its not a big concern.
The cylinder is NOT ported.

The piston is a a weisco and is a 81mm. Part number 577MG8100 is in it right now.
The piston edges and top look (old) but in good shape. The top of the piston has good piston wash but a lot of carbon build-up.
So its been bored over once or twice. Looks to have been done quite a while ago.
I can bore the cylinder two more times up to 82mm.

I put it all back together for now. I feel better about my purchase :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Here is a good thread about squish: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6797&hilit=piston+weights
It's long winded but a very good read. Yes I know they are talking about a FL350 head but it is still a good read. A must read until at least page 2 to about three quarters of the way down to speedchaser's comment. Hell read it all LOL. According to Hoser the rule of thumb for setting the squish clearance is Stroke in inches x 0.0135 = Squish clearance.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Yes that would be 42 thousandths as FL400 has a 79mm stroke.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:10 am 
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If you have any questions k-fab is the mod on mini Buggy.net. I asked him questions about parts I was looking for and he did respond.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Where are you located ZC?

Id be more concerned with the crap in the fuel tank than the Engine.

I still don't get why someone would pass up a pilot for a low compression Engine? Such a small part of the puzzle and so easy to fix.

I use to run my 77 and 86 CRs until I could kick start them by hand! Still fun as hell! And when you rebuild them it feels like a new bike! LOL!

Yellowdog isn't into 2 strokes anymore.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:45 am 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
bullnerd wrote:
Id be more concerned with the crap in the fuel tank than the Engine.

I still don't get why someone would pass up a pilot for a low compression Engine? Such a small part of the puzzle and so easy to fix.


Yup and yup
Pick up tubes might be badly corroded now.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:38 am 
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Does anyone know why my pilot has a little red button, that’s apparently broken, in the middle of the steering wheel?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:00 am 
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Nice looking Pilot, congratulations. Might that be a speedchaser head with k fab engravings.
Attached are pictures of speeds head. Maybe, maybe not.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:22 am 
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Well done Steve,I Thought the same but our planetary time diffs beat me to it.Currently Sat night Downunderwear7.15 pm as sittin by the pool downin some beers and ciders.Thinkin of you blokes upover and havin some extras on your honour.and behalf :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:06 am 
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Location: Ma
bugeye59 wrote:
Well done Steve,I Thought the same but our planetary time diffs beat me to it.Currently Sat night Downunderwear7.15 pm as sittin by the pool downin some beers and ciders.Thinkin of you blokes upover and havin some extras on your honour.and behalf :-)


Good to see hear you're doing well and enjoying beverage. Speed makes a great head.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:25 am 
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With those head pics I believe this is a speedchaser head. I presume new head domes are available then?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
I believe Kfab made some also.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Location: East Peoria IL
ZeroClient wrote:
Does anyone know why my pilot has a little red button, that’s apparently broken, in the middle of the steering wheel?



Could it be for the light on the top? Follow the wires and see were they lead.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:30 pm 
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k I'm not really sure what the button was originally intended for. Its actually not connected to anything. Oh well.


So today, ran her for about 2 hours and all I gotta say is, OMG this thing is FUN!!!!!! She ran perfect. I even put the jet-needle back to where it was before and it felt a little cleaner. The plug is still coming out really black though, and so I'm thinking either maybe the idle jet is one size too rich, or perhaps the age of the Engine. Not sure. In any case, I'm likely going to keep things close to the way they are engine-wise and she runs spot-on. In about a month its more-so boating season for me, at which point I'll piece together an Engine refresh of sort.

The new fuel filters did their job; in fact the one nearest the tank picked up a bit more junk from the tank :( I'm going to clean it out (Its a cleanable filter) and repair the tank when I do a rebuild this summer.

The only bad from today was;
I dropped the large cir-clip from the top of the carb slide into the pilot and I couldn't find it for 30 minutes until I removed the rear belly pan; it was right there in the end but this almost stopped my day all together.
The left rear tire went 100% flat on me. Lucky for me it must have been the end of the day (I think I remember where it happened?) and it still got me back to the truck.
The front brakes are complete crap with absolutely nothing up front. I'll need to do something about that for sure. The bleed didn't help. I'm thinking the master cylinder must be completely shot as there are no leaks anywhere. Hopefully I can find a rebuild.
I need to consider looking for a belly pan for the middle of the pilot - just under the drivers seat. It would seem the seat is sometimes just inches above the ground with no protection, and a stick or rock could try to stick me where the sun don't shine if I don't put a protective panel under the seat.

While this unit is no "trailer queen", it did bring a crowd today. On 7 different occasions within 3 hours folks wondered up just to talk about WTF the contraption was. Questions like, what did you do to the Engine, when did Honda start making these again, and one dude with only 1 front tooth in his whole mouth was about to have a baby when I arrived - lol and the pilot was still on the trailer.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:23 pm 
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[quote="ZeroClient"]So today, ran her for about 2 hours and all I gotta say is, OMG this thing is FUN!!!!!! She ran perfect. I even put the jet-needle back to where it was before and it felt a little cleaner. The plug is still coming out really black though, and so I'm thinking either maybe the idle jet is one size too rich, or perhaps the age of the Engine. Not sure. In any case, I'm likely going to keep things close to the way they are engine-wise and she runs spot-on. In about a month its more-so boating season for me, at which point I'll piece together an Engine refresh of sort.

I need to consider looking for a belly pan for the middle of the pilot - just under the drivers seat. It would seem the seat is sometimes just inches above the ground with no protection, and a stick or rock could try to stick me where the sun don't shine if I don't put a protective panel under the seat.[quote]



You really need to move to the state of Nevada. You are clearly a gambling man.
Basically what I have found is that when you buy one of these machines the first thing you do is pressure/vacuum test. I say this because the previous owner may not even be aware that he had an air leak. Also there were several other issues like the fuel tank. If the pick up tubes were corroded there is a possibility that you will run short on fuel supply and lean out the Engine. You had no front brakes so were the rear pads good ?? Did the ebrake at least work ?? Your a gambling man.
On a positive note you appear to be mechanically inclined so an Engine poofkaboom don't matter.
With regards to the seat pan -- yeah all my FL350's have an aluminum plate. That's actually one of the first things I built for them. Where we ride that is a very dangerous gamble without one.
Congrats on the new machine.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
Sounds like a fun day!

That was on race gas?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
The head has a negitve squish
No big deal alot of pilot s run that head no issues.
Clearances ok as well
No need for race gas unless you want to.
If stock pilot plot with that head you better check your guage. Easy 170
Oil test the cylinder and compare numbers.
Memory serves you a water craft guy.
Did you get a number from deck to ex open?

K fab, come on we all know him.
Enjoy your time.
Post up a pic of piston if you can.


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