no need to apologize I understand completely as my work schedule has permitted me from doing many things as of recently. I will send you the other two remaining pistons. Adnoh are you okay with him sending the Pistons directly to wiseco? Thanks to you both!

I can send both pistons to Adnoh if he wishes to look at the pistons but Andoh in no way should feel obligated or feel bad or worry about this issue just because he put this piston buy deal together, the problems are wiseco problems, this could happen to anybody, any vendor, any dealer its just a luck of the draw, NOBODY is 100% including wiseco shit is going to happen I am almost glad it happen here so all of got a chance to learn more about the real world.

I am grateful Adnoh took the time out of his busy schedule to put together this group buy, again nothing on Adnoh everything he has done on and for this site/group has always been in good faith and the best for the group.

I will wait until I have the other two of your pistons before I ship them any place, I doubt it cost any more to ship 3-4 pistons than it cost to ship one might as well do it all at one time.

On a side note should have your other Engine completed today if I don't get any interruptions lol seems any free time I get now days is quickly consumed by a knock on the door or a phone call.

Sorry to here there is an issue with a second one however I feel it can be resolved. I just back in town from an out of town job and read this. I have called the shop I purchased them from to report possible issue. They in turn are notifying wiesco to ask some questions and in turn return for inspection. When this first cropped up I notified each buyer and included a pdf for inspection. I will share a portion of this pdf with all to view. It contains some important numbers as they relate to gas pressure and ring twist information which I feel is important. We have not talked or discuses a lot about this and maybe it is time we do. With winter coming I should have time to write up some babble on this topic for all to read and open a debate on the importance. Then all that have old rings in the garage/shop can look them over and go UMMMM. This should shed some light o the subject of clearances and other Engine parameters. The land clearance and ring end gap plays an very important part in the seal and life of the rings. We have discussed before the amount of heat transfer from piston to wall through the ring and maybe we should discuss the gas pressure related to time and transfer related to twist and piston position. I myself am not real verses in this however do have a understanding of it's impact.

"H" once you have received al of muds piston kit. Please go through each one keeping all parts as a kit and put all the kit parts back in the box. Then you can send them to me to forward to my supplier and wiesco. Once I receive them I will send mudd his money back for each kit I receive plus shipping.


"This notification is due to a possible issue that has arisen with your recent piston purchase.
The issue was the ring land had a tight spot or the ring had a fat spot. This issue could cause the ring to stick in the land and or cause piston scuffing. I urge you to inspect your piston for this issue. If an issue is found please notify me so corrective action can be taken as not to lead to possible Engine damage. I, Richard Squib will buy your piston back and will pay for shipping back to me. This buy back has a 30 day time limit from time the message is sent. So please do your part and check the piston, rings and other supplied part that came with the piston kit. Please use care and caution when checking the issue as not to cause damage to your kit.

Here is some numbers for you ring check. Note the MM and inches in the numbers
Ring to land clearance .035 to 0.45 mm.
Ring to ring land depth clearance at crown dia .055 to .065mm
Rotational pin clearance end gap (back side ring gap) .075 to .085 inches at .004 x bore
Rotational piston movement lock to lock .012 to .013 inches with small end gap at .004 to bore
These numbers should get you real close. Be sure to clean your piston and rings good before doing any measuring. Use a tooth brush to clean the ring land and then use carb cleaner and air to blow any residue particles left behind before installing the ring for measurements. You should also use feeler gauges to find the gap of the ring lands and use it to in circle the lands before checking with the new rings. In order to check your rotational movement place the ring on the piston and install like normal into the cylinder then set up a dial indicator on the skirt of the piston and rotate easy pin lock to pin lock. You also should start with end gap numbers for both rings in the cylinder and you should know your bore clearance. You should be able to use the ring data I posted as a base line for these piston and rings. If you look at the numbers you should be able to see a common denominator or correlation for the wiesco piston and rings."

I will add another number to this. The ring grove should be around .049 inches. Be carful with this number. The rings land clearance is more important then groove number. Since this ring came from Japan the ring groove is set to the land clearance. The land is the top or bottom of the ring groove with the ring installed at full depth. This is what help set the gas pressure for ring twist in correlation with the rings end gap. One will influence the other. If you look at this with the amount of total thrust of the rotating assembly and cylinder x and y dimension with out of round and taper you can see why we see some new start up go south.

Adnoh

I appreciate what adnoh has done for us 100% as well and hold wiseco responsible for the issue.

Ok guy's I got some info to share about the piston. As you know I contacted them threw my supplier. The responded back yesterday. What I did was notify them about the issue "H" found. I then ask for Wiseco to get the specs for the piston. So far so good. I told them once I receive the pistons and compare to there specs I will confirm that they do not meet spec and send them to Wiseco for fix or replacement. They told me OK. This is not to say they will do it however I opened up a dialog with them in hopes to fix this issue and prevent one in the future. I also wanted to be sure I was supplying others with the correct numbers for checking and installation. This will also play a part in the gas discussion I hope to take place in another thread. In order for the discussion to be some what HACKER accurate I feel we should have the numbers from the maker them selves as not to just rely on a back yard hacker. I also believe we should look at the arts cast and the Wiseco forged as two different animals. Why you may ask? Well there engineered and made in two different way based on the casting/forging process to yield two different results. As you read this go ahead and do some Google searches on pistons, cast and forged to get an idea on the process and some of there effects related to heat and pressure.

Any way the numbers I got from Wiseco are as follows as they relate to the issue and what I posted.
This numbers are in inches

Ring groove .049
Ring thickness .0472
ring gap (small) .012 to .013
Wall to ring .02

Some other related info on the rings when measuring log each thickness no matter how slight and put the thinner on top with the greatest end gap. The only variable to this will be the land to ring clearance. Always use the greater clearance on top no matter what. Then use the largest gap or gap the ring equal to or greater than the bottom. This will play a part in the gas pressure discussion later.

Once you have set the minimums for the piston then factor in the rest of or Engine build to the numbers.
Some of the other items are:
Compression ratios
Top land height
Top Land to Second Land difference
Total thrust and the amount of the minor and major side.
Final honing stone grit
Final hone angles
Engine running temperatures
Plug heat range
Engine timing at full retard
RPM at full retard
Fuel type
Carburetors ratio to intake velocity
Case compression ratio
Reed tip ratio and lift
Blow down timing
Intake and exhaust timing
Exhaust temp and timing
Lubrication oil and its specifications and quantity's available

With all that in mind you should be able to fit the Wiseco for reliable life and fun. See Honda had already done all this for us using the cast piston the way it came form the factory floor. Then we just had to have more. Even with the cast we need to factor in other items to keep the piston and ring in check. This is why some get two minutes to an excess of 100 hours on and Engine build.

Any way I will keep all advise as this process take place. If need be I will enlist the help of a couple of professional Engine builders I know to verify my numbers and aid in the discussion after all our goal is to keep these machines running as long as we can for other generations to enjoy.

Adnoh

Adnoh.

Remaining pistons will be at Hosers on Wednesday, after reading the thread I had a 30 day period to return them to Wiseco or the supplier, I have been working so much and family obligations I forgot to send them, are/am I going to have an issue with Wiseco or the supplier?

No the money comes out of my pocket for now. The intent was to have all check and not be hit with an issue a year from now. Once I receive your pistons and check them they are going to the supplier and the two Engine builders for further checking. Then there going to the MFG.

I will send you your money + shipping cost for the piston (s) returned. I must stress I need the kits as I sent them out back. Sooner better then latter for the mfg or they will make me eat them. To be perfectly honest if they need just a touch up I'm going to keep them for my self as I have no issue fixing a minor issues. I can not count the number of piston/ rings I have had to do minor work to for a Engine build. It's actually pretty common. Major issue they will be returned to the MFG. I will run them though a set of test block to check the ring grooves. The test block are like a gas port block that are machined down to fit inside the groove.

Also Note: The returned pistons will not end up on ebay or be sold to any one. They will be used by me and me only in my engines. Be nice to have a couple of spares. I will use one for a new cylinder plating idea I have.

I will P.M. you once they arrive.

Until then every one have a nice holiday as I will be busy and gone until the first of the year.

Adnoh

Adnoh i would like to keep the pistons if they can be repaired or if the supplier will make replacement s but i really wantthe pistons back. The whole point of me startiing the process was i need them, please if we can i want them back. Pm please

Well its FOUR for FOUR, your other two pistons came today just took them out of the boxes and they are EXACTLY the same as the other two.

SO either your the most unlucky SOB on the face of the earth or I am the dumbest SOB on the face of the earth OR all the others who has received pistons out of this same batch has failed to follow my instructions on checking the ring grooves on these pistons.

Has ANYBODY actually installed one of these pistons in a Engine and run it? I find it hard to believe Mudbogger got the only 4 pistons with this problem if he is then this explains why his lotto tickets never win anything....

Remove one of the rings from the package FIND the locator pin in the lower ring groove lay the back side of the ring in the groove to the RIGHT SIDE of the locator pin it will fall into the ring groove with no effort (as it should) then ROLL the ring around the groove and all the way around the piston until you get back to the locator pin where you started, AT NO TIME should the ring stop or walk up out of the groove or you should feel any resistance getting the ring to fall to the bottom of the groove.

On these two pistons using a flash light and viewing from just the right angle AND with the condensation from taking the piston out of the 30 degrees outside moving into the inside where moisture is starting to condense on the piston like a haze of moisture on a cold can of pop on a warm day I can see a HUMP in the lower part of the groove, its a MACHINING FLAW its wide enough and high enough I wont be trying to scratch it out with a broken ring or gouging it out with a piston ring groove cleaner, Dremel tool or anything else THESE NEED SENT BACK TO WISECO so they can fix them, in case you forgot every since the company that owns wiseco bought out every major piston manufacture on the planet then DOUBLED the price of their piston kits their quality under the new Monopoly has suffered, if they didnt double the price on their piston kits in the past 10 years I might be more inclined to attempt a repair even tho I don't feel comfortable installing a part into one of my Engine builds with a known problem so it can then fail then I can do like ATV Racing and blame your jetting or the fuel your running then CHARGE YOU AGAIN to fix it, not how I do business....

Mudbogger did you put the wrist pin bearings in these kits or did these kits come with wrist pin bearings from the factory? If you put them in I will remove all 4 before the pistons are boxed up and shipped, I have a feeling if we ship these back to wiseco you will never see them bearings again lol. They usually do not come with the wrist pin bearing.

I would be adding a descrete lil ID marking of some sort,so you can check that they're just not sending back the same pistons?

Good idea, I can do that, take my smallest cutter and put a mark on the inside only seen if your looking for it, I have no problem getting the same pistons back long as they are right, I am not opposed to them making corrections long as its documented and if their is a problem in the future they stand behind it I hate to see the ring stick or be short lived then the owner getting stuck with the premature failure.

Take them out please they did not come with the pistons please take them out if you can.
I cannot believe all 4 are bad, my luck is so bad if i won the lotto for a million i would owe 1.5 after taxes.
This only happens to me, lol!

Same here my luck is not much better lol

Pulling all the wrist pin bearings putting them into your spare parts box, will send 3 of them back with your Engine if you like so you can put back into your stock.

OK, I just double and triple checked both of mine, I even had my wife watch as I did it as I am a little blind. I went all the way around both ring lands upper and lower paying special attention to the area with the problem and they are both fine.

If you need it Gregg I can send one of mine to Hoser for you.

"H" please do not do nothing to them with the exception of the marking on the places they are tight with a felt pen. I do not want them to have any reason for not taking care of the issue. If they are marked some how I will not pay for them so please do not mark. Do not worry about them sending them back the same ones as no way in heck are these gona be used by anyone but me or they will refund my money or add to the new batch. Mudd will receive all his money back plus shipping. So let me know what your additional shipping cost is so I can add it to what I owe you.

Richard Squib

Mudd the way I see it is "H" will not use them no matter what so it will do no good for me or anybody else to fix them and get them back to you. The only option is for wiesco to replace them and hope it passes "H"'s inspection. That a crap shoot at best. I would say get your money back cut your losses and look for another option. I have two Engine builders ready to inspect and provide a written report on what they find. These two Engine builder work with wiesco all the time and one even does most of machine work for a local ATV well know Engine developer. So I have very little doubt that I will get to the bottom of the issue and get results. You have my word on this. That is why I will pay for it. No matter what you and "H" are only out a little time (once you get your money back). So get me those kit back get your money and wait to see what happens. If I do not produce the results then all can bash the hell out of me.

Sound good to you?

Richard Squib

Yes send me one please.

How soon do you need your cylinder back looks like after the first of the year is going to be the soonest I can hand deliver, can ship if you need sooner.

I will get one sent out to you, keep my cylinder and bring it when you come.

Do you need the bearing as well? I have one if you do.

Again this is not at all on you these 4 defective pistons are all on wiseco IMO the pistons need to go straight back to wiseco so wiseco QC can see the problem first hand then make corrections in their business so it does not happen again, at least 4 pistons escaped their QC processes, wisecos quality control has been going down hill for years, let wiseco stand behind their products not your friends, you have already devoted enough time just in putting this group buy together in the first place and were all grateful for this and all group buys.

If you would like to look at these 4 pistons and show your buddies I would be more than happy to pay the freight so you can lay hands on and see what I am trying to describe, then you can forward the pistons back to wiseco. Far as warranty, who bought these pistons, where they were bought, when they were bought should have nothing to do with wiseco standing behind the MFG defects I found its all on them.

Pretty sure Mudbogger bought these pistons because he needs 4 pistons for inventory.

Keep in mind "H" didnt create these problems. Wiseco created the defective pistons, please don't shoot the messenger, the people of wiseco is the root cause of the problem and no customer should have to lower their standards to accommodate someone like wiseco. Nobody is 100% and I am not just being picky here these 4 pistons I have are DEFECTIVE POS JUNK not worthy of one of my Engine builds, they don't need just a little forging flash or a sharp edge left over from the machining process removed their is a machining defect like the CNC was not programed correctly and lifted too soon (not enough over lap on the cut I suspect) on top of that their is the YEARS of reading all the "quality" bullshit directly from wiseco (monthly news letters I receive) and all the bragging from the clueless I have had to endure over the years bragging about quality wiseco products that I never seem to end up with,9 out of 10 pistons I get need me to finish removing the sharp edges on or need the wrist pin bores realigned so the pin will glide through like OEM pistons do, I also noticed on all four of these pistons at very abnormal amount of water spots on the pistons (actually probably machining coolant not just water) I always find a little hear and their that has to be removed before installing but these 4 are the worse yet, perhaps their is a connection the operator that did these pistons not only messed up on the machine process but also skimped or failed at the post machining clean up, regardless this will be for wisecos QC department to sort out and address all I know is they are wrong.

Glad it happen at my shop and didnt happen to someone doing their first rebuilt or someone needing their Engine running by next weeks race.

No wrist pin needed Mudbogger sent one inside each piston kit so I currently have 4 I assume you still have my address on file.

I am very disAppointed with the pistons and did indeed buy them for stock.
Nothing adnoh did, and i appreciate greatly you offering for money back. Again replacement is my wish, but if that's not an option money back is fine. This is a real shame all 4 of mine are poorly made.

One piston kit is on its way to you, USPS priority. I will pm you the tracking #.

"H" I'm in no way blaming you for anything in any way. If mudd would like me to try to resolve the issue I need them back. Please state in a letter if you wish your issues so I can pass it on to Wiseco with the others that I was going to get from the other builders. I took it from your post even if Wiseco fixed them you would not use them. Did I read this wrong?

I say I will do what ever Mudd wants to do, there his pistons. Just let me know. I do not want this to drag out. The longer we wait the harder it will be to get results. If Mudd or your self or any one else would like to have it resolved that is fine with me.

I say lets not complain any more about it and do something about it. That is the approach I was going to take. Armed with facts go to wiesco and demand results. All they can say is to bad and then we as individuals need to choose to do business with them in the future. I can not demand results from my supplier until I for my self see and have a professional that my supplier knows and trust check them out and substantiate your finding. This is not to say your word is not good enough just that the supplier has the clout to get it done. I say we handle this is a professional way and we should be treated the same from wiesco.

Richard

Just got off the phone with the supplier again now there is four of them. He told me to get them back if the owner wishes and have me take them to the Engine builder they know and if he says there an issue they will take care of sending them back to wiesco. By the way this is the same one I was going to take them to.

Other than that I do not know what else I can do.

Richard

Sure thing will ship them out to you tomorrow, PM me the address you need them sent, no need to type out a letter just install both rings and you will see the problem when you try to install the bottom ring its 100% self explanatory at that point.