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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:45 am
Posts: 1040
Location: hole above ground
Hello Turbo I been looking at your project here
and was talking to Mudbogger do you need new bottom arms built for that ?
mud has a set that I can copy from that are not all bent up
but I think you need to go to a larger lower ball joint that has a bigger threaded end on it
so that being said what is the Dia. of lower tube and what is Dia. of the ball joint threaded end


Thanks Speed




::-:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
Perhaps buy a bumper from SPEED for that ride as well Turbo :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Damage
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
redman wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
redman wrote:
Is your front spindle cracked in the last pic just above the R or is it just an illusion?
Redman


I see where you are talking about, the upper right corner? I will look tomorrow...



Actually it's right in the center of the hub...See the R on the hub in the pic? Now look just above it...It runs horizontal...
Redman


Must be a dillusion!!! Nothing but dirt on there, but I still haven't looked inside yet!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
speedchaser wrote:
Hello Turbo I been looking at your project here
and was talking to Mudbogger do you need new bottom arms built for that ?
mud has a set that I can copy from that are not all bent up
but I think you need to go to a larger lower ball joint that has a bigger threaded end on it
so that being said what is the Dia. of lower tube and what is Dia. of the ball joint threaded end


Thanks Speed




::-:


I will check here shortly! I am in middle of my first 4 stroke top end... LOL (Look out larry) I am looking for my caliper for that project... Will measure everything up! Maybe mud can send them to you to copy! If we can do an easy weld in fix to the lawyer links we will have a good a arm set up for the group!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Mudbogger wrote:
Perhaps buy a bumper from SPEED for that ride as well Turbo :-)


I got a bumper already! Might need to send to speed to fix... I hit a damn tree... LOL After all these few years of riding here lately I been hitting some things... LOL Why I like the desert so much! LOL no trees LOL


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utv race results1closeup.jpg
utv race results1closeup.jpg [ 665.41 KiB | Viewed 2568 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
we are looking at 1" tubing on the lower and upper arms, and the threaded ball joit fits a 15/16 nut. Now when I was younger I believe they taught us subtract 3/16 off the nut size and that is your bolt size... so I would guess 3/4"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
we are looking at 1" tubing on the lower and upper arms, and the threaded ball joit fits a 15/16 nut. Now when I was younger I believe they taught us subtract 3/16 off the nut size and that is your bolt size... so I would guess 3/4"


Look at the bracing of the lower stock Pilot arms, just throwing larger diameter or thicker tubing at something might not be the answer, on other sites I seen questions like "what size and thickness tubing should I use for my" insert trailing arms or A arms, or frame or roll cage, then they get a flood of answers ranging from one extreme to another personally I cant see how you can answer the question without knowing the design that will be used, how can you say "use 3/4" .095 moly" when you have no idea how it might be braced or what the radius of any bends might be?

Where is LEE he can probably add to this where you will understand better heck maybe he can perform a stress analysis for you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I questioned chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts about why the lower was so poorly designed compared to other a-arms... Of course that was when all the shit was flying back when I foirst bought these. I didn't like the way the shock was mounted and didn't feel there was not enough bracing for my riding/driving LOL
I will try to call Randy and see if he can get a new one from chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts real quick like. That or buy a bender somewhere, and wait for speed to get one made...


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 Post subject: tubing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:19 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 70
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
we are looking at 1" tubing on the lower and upper arms, and the threaded ball joit fits a 15/16 nut. Now when I was younger I believe they taught us subtract 3/16 off the nut size and that is your bolt size... so I would guess 3/4"


Look at the bracing of the lower stock Pilot arms, just throwing larger diameter or thicker tubing at something might not be the answer, on other sites I seen questions like "what size and thickness tubing should I use for my" insert trailing arms or A arms, or frame or roll cage, then they get a flood of answers ranging from one extreme to another personally I cant see how you can answer the question without knowing the design that will be used, how can you say "use 3/4" .095 moly" when you have no idea how it might be braced or what the radius of any bends might be?

Where is LEE he can probably add to this where you will understand better heck maybe he can perform a stress analysis for you.


I think he was saying that 1" is what the old one is made out of,not what he thinks it should be made out of.....Get too strong and the arm will become too rigid,and the next thing to bend is the frame, and that's BAD.....No arm of no design is going to survive a hit from a tree,fence post,big rock,or whatever it was that it hit,and if it did, the frame would be bent...If the other arm hasn't bent from the riding you have done, then I would make it exactly like the one that came off of it....It has done it's job the way it was supposed too.....As for copying the arms,I don't think that's cool...Someone put a bunch of time in them,and if he is marketing them,he deserves enough respect to have them bought from him if someone wants a set....I know if I designed something,it would piss me off royaly to find out someone copied it and was selling it,wether it was in large numbers or just to a few people....It's not moral or ethical....
I looked at the pic and didn't really see anything wrong with the shock mounting design...Can you elaborate a little on what you don't like and how you would change it? This is one of the kits that I have been debating on with Yoda's...It does have a bunch more moving parts,but seems to have a bunch more travel as well,and makes the machine 6" /- wider which should put the rear and the front about the same width...I have read some of the concerns and merit each one,and maybe something different does need to be done with the steering,but the concept seems great....I have a few ideas already on how to fix or improve the steering lockup problem...
Redman


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 Post subject: Re: tubing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:52 am 
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Posts: 1040
Location: hole above ground
redman wrote:
It has done it's job the way it was supposed too.....As for copying the arms,I don't think that's cool...Someone put a bunch of time in them,and if he is marketing them,he deserves enough respect to have them bought from him if someone wants a set....I know if I designed something,it would piss me off royaly to find out someone copied it and was selling it,wether it was in large numbers or just to a few people....It's not moral or ethical....
I looked at the pic and didn't really see anything wrong with the shock mounting design...Can you elaborate a little on what you don't like and how you would change it?


Ok I will bite ware in my post did it say I was going to charge a price of them ?

If you have read threw the posts that are about this kit from aftercrack

They will not give turbo the time in the day

as for copy some one's stuff this happened every day it call free Enterprise





redman wrote:
This is one of the kits that I have been debating on with Yoda's...It does have a bunch more moving parts,but seems to have a bunch more travel as well,and makes the machine 6" /- wider which should put the rear and the front about the same width...I have read some of the concerns and merit each one,and maybe something different does need to be done with the steering,but the concept seems great....I have a few ideas already on how to fix or improve the steering lockup problem...
Redman


this kit from aftercrack is for the fl350

Yoda's kit is for the fl400 pilot only

How can you compare the two they are total different




Thanks and Have a nice Day
SpeedChaser


:-)


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 Post subject: Re: tubing
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 70
speedchaser wrote:
redman wrote:
It has done it's job the way it was supposed too.....As for copying the arms,I don't think that's cool...Someone put a bunch of time in them,and if he is marketing them,he deserves enough respect to have them bought from him if someone wants a set....I know if I designed something,it would piss me off royaly to find out someone copied it and was selling it,wether it was in large numbers or just to a few people....It's not moral or ethical....
I looked at the pic and didn't really see anything wrong with the shock mounting design...Can you elaborate a little on what you don't like and how you would change it?


Ok I will bite ware in my post did it say I was going to charge a price of them ?

If you have read threw the posts that are about this kit from aftercrack

They will not give turbo the time in the day

as for copy some one's stuff this happened every day it call free Enterprise





redman wrote:
This is one of the kits that I have been debating on with Yoda's...It does have a bunch more moving parts,but seems to have a bunch more travel as well,and makes the machine 6" /- wider which should put the rear and the front about the same width...I have read some of the concerns and merit each one,and maybe something different does need to be done with the steering,but the concept seems great....I have a few ideas already on how to fix or improve the steering lockup problem...
Redman


this kit from aftercrack is for the fl350

Yoda's kit is for the fl400 pilot only

How can you compare the two they are total different




Thanks and Have a nice Day
SpeedChaser


:-)


Actually, it was Turbo that mentioned the fact of copying them and having a good a arm set up for the group...Not you...Maybe I misunderstood the intentions and if so, I apologise...Enterprise or not,it's still wrong....The very thing of China copying other stuff has been ridiculed even on this site,and there's really no difference.......
The kit actually makes the fl350 front frame a copy of the 400...It is my understanding that the arms bolt directly to the pilot without the subframe...I have seen the kit advertised on e-bay for the pilot, and that was my understanding of how it worked....As for comparing the 2,I think if Turbo's kit had the steering issue resolved , there would be no comparison...I am patiently waiting on the tow change from Mudbogger through the suspension travel,but all indications are telling me that the bumpsteer with the long travel shocks and brackets is going to be excessive which is a bad thing...I sincerely hope i'm wrong about this,but the laws of physics is working strongly against it...Might not be a big issue for sand riders,but for riding on hardpack,it's a major concern...
Redman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Why does this project bring out so much drama??? This group here is all about helping others. I have been to several forums that PUSH products onto unsuspecting newbies. Atv Forums are everywhere started by mfg's but anyhow...
I don't expect speedchaser to spend his own money on materials to make me something I can't get from chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts. chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts doesn't return my emails so I am left to fix this myself... Too bad Pilot-odyssey.com isn't still around so I could link you to the drama I created when I ask chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts for some help regarding some pieces that were MISSING from my order... Instead of contacting me it was all turbo is an idiot... So I will just go off and figure out a way to fix this shit I foolishly bought. I don't have the skills to do what shabadouba did, but I will try...


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 Post subject: arms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:09 am 
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Posts: 70
Turbotexas wrote:
Why does this project bring out so much drama??? This group here is all about helping others. I have been to several forums that PUSH products onto unsuspecting newbies. Atv Forums are everywhere started by mfg's but anyhow...
I don't expect speedchaser to spend his own money on materials to make me something I can't get from chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts. chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts doesn't return my emails so I am left to fix this myself... Too bad Pilot-odyssey.com isn't still around so I could link you to the drama I created when I ask chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts for some help regarding some pieces that were MISSING from my order... Instead of contacting me it was all turbo is an idiot... So I will just go off and figure out a way to fix this shit I foolishly bought. I don't have the skills to do what shabadouba did, but I will try...


I completely understand your disgust...I wasn't referring to you paying him to make an arm to fix your broken one, I would do the same thing...When they are copied and made for a "group", that's where I feel it's wrong, no matter how much you dislike the guy....Maybe just design a different steering mechanism and market it as an option to use on his a-arms...Then again, the dimensions on his arms probably aren't any big secret, and are probably similar to the ones used on ATVR's arms,so take those measurements,redesign the shock mount you didn't like,maybe a different balljoint configuration,and build away.....
As for drama,look at the length of this topic....lol....That's enough to bring some drama to even a boring topic,much less one with as many interesting posts as this one,not to mention all the bashing,argueing,and criticising.....There's not this much drama in soap operas,and this is even real world....lol....
Redman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I got the quad working better and am waiting for Honda OEM parts so I went to get some done on the ODY...


Attachments:
File comment: Funny discoloration????
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File comment: even some discoloration on the inside rim???
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File comment: some hardware that came with the 400ex Matches the taper on the ody!!!
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:27 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
What I mean by For the group... Improving on something chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts copied from someone else...
It is so guys who have been left with no support on a product like myself... And Yes there are others who have had the same experiences with chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts as me... So no it really isn't just "me" I am wondering if the hiem joints like those pictured be.low will be a better improvement??? I am willing to try, but I am no expert like several here...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I have to find a torch and a good jaw clamp and fix this first... All I can think to do is bend it back to as close as the opposite side.. Mirrow image it... I don't have a tubing bender yet so I can't rebuild with new parts


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:27 am 
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Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
I have to find a torch and a good jaw clamp and fix this first... All I can think to do is bend it back to as close as the opposite side.. Mirrow image it... I don't have a tubing bender yet so I can't rebuild with new parts


Not sure I see the direction of the bend its bent up?

Cant you lay it on wood or even concrete then take your trailer jack and crank down on it and flatten it back out? That is if its bent up.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:04 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
It is bent up and in so I am thinking of getting a big pipe for leverage and a small torch... not sure yet how it will work???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:15 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Do not use heat to bend back it will weaken the arm. Bend back use intermitent force. this will allow it to bend back easier using less force and with less metal fatigue. I use hiems on mine, there chromoly and its eaisier to fine tune. The hiems are easly replacable as well. You must keep clean and lube with graphite. Do not use all type of oil on them. Turbo remember when I took my 450 upper and bent it to fit the pilot. If you have a v- block that you can place over the center ofthe bend then support each end spaced at an equal distance then apply pressure to the block then release and then repeat as many times as necessary. There is also some ball joint out thee that are a lot stronger as well.


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Arms.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:37 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Here some info on joints. This is from ricky stator

A - Is Ricky Stator's full ball joint which has the most degrees of angle movement of all except the MOOG es2074 (C) which is the same. It has a 16mm threaded shaft and is essentially a copy of the TRX250R as far as the stud and socket is concerned. The ball has a lot of contact with the socket making for a more distributed load which results in better wear characteristics. Our ball joints have been tested in every long distance race and has won them all.

B - Is the OEM Honda from a TRX250R.

C - Is the MOOG tie-rod end from a Mazda truck. Probably used by a bazillion fabricators for at least 15 years with good success. Unfortunately it is a tie-rod end that requires greasing since it is metal to metal and has the spring (that occasionally breaks) for shock absorbing - good in tie-rod applications but not for ball joints. The threaded shaft is not always threaded straight and even also.

D - Is the VW transporter tie-rod end. It has a 14 mm shank which we feel is too small (bet the guy that wrecked this one feels the same). Notice since it is a tie-rod end it has the spring also. This type has been used for years since the stud fits into the Honda spindle without machining.

E - Is the "Italian" made so called ball joint. This is a typical auto tie-rod end as you can see.


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BALL JOINTS.jpg
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:47 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
This to me is a great choice for a ball joint for safty if you do not want hiems. Its rebuidable and strong.

This is our new fully rebuildable ball joint. It features nylon bushing on the inside and a anodized cover on the bottom for easy rebuildability. It comes with a rubber boot on the top to keep out dirt. This ball joint has been tested for while and have really proved themselves to stand up. You get the ease of a ball joint and the saftey of a heim with this new design.

It may be time to got to a lower chromoly arm and let the upper take the abuse and cheaper to replace caring spare. This will improve relibility and and still provide a give in the system before frame get tore. This to say there not indstructable. If you use a hiem set up you just unblot bad parts and replace. In most case the upper hiem will let go and there only 20 buck to replace and can be done at your ridding area in fifteen minutes. If the arm does bend just readjsut unitill you can replaceas long as not excessive. Never use a bent hiem shaft or ball joint shaft. They tend to snap.


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450 ball joint 2.jpg
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
On the bump issue. To much is bad, A caster change will help offset some of the bump effect at full droop. Most LT kit set there static caster this way for that reason.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK I will try to shape this back with out the heat... I don't think it will be easy as I can't seperate like you did... I will buy a 8-10 foot section of pipe and use fulcrum... LOL I just will have to clamp it to my trailer...

The ball joints will have to wait till next time as I have already purchased the MOOG's

If I can find some suitable tubing I might cut off the top arms and install hiems... I want to try the different idler arm first though...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:11 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
On mine I bent in steps not in one big jump so the metal had time to relax between steps as not to weaken the metal. Just have to revese the pressure.

I have a bent lower stock arm knda like yours. I will go try to straighten to see what hacker tools may work best. "H" had a good idea using trailer jack for the pressure. I will wood for v block chian or flat strap and hydrulic jack. If I rember right you did say the lower arms were plain steel.

You can call fireball racing and they will sell you the bung hiems and missalign spacers. If you weld them in be sure to v the tube so you get better coverage area. If the lower arms are indeed based off of the pilot I will compare the the to what I do to see if a lower chromolly arm can be used.

Since yours is off lay on paper and mark a line where the frame bolts go and draw a stright line from end to end and mark the back side of each pivot point. Second mark center of ball joint ( or ball joint tube, outside edge and inside edge) on the paper. Line the marks up with straight edge and draw a stright line back to the one you made for the frame mount bolts. Now use a square and mark a square line for each end of pivot forward. Now use you square to line up the center of ball and measure the distance from the front and rear pivot lines. This will tell me how far forward the ball is from stock. Use your square from the back pivot line and line up with center of ball joint location and mesure that distance. Last but most important from the center ball joint square line use a protractor and find the angle of the ball joint line to pivot. This angle is very important to make sure the caster run true tu travle or change it for better turn in traction.

If it rains here today I will go to gargage and do the same for stock pilot with pics for you. Speed had a good idea on useing a set of good one to remake an imporved set using chromoly.

I did see where it bent which is normal for that kinda impact. The bend told me the the tress factor was highest at the ball stem and behind the shock support and the rest was deflected thu frame. Once this is improved the stress will be focused futre back to the frame pivots. This is why I feel it may be best to let the upper take the abuse and give it a place to go with out complete failure. I did some reading last night on motin force and that it is a based on a two plains and based on vectors. The math was to complacted for me to do but I got the diea of what it was telling me. What it told me was tree verses a-arm , BAD.

You may want to check all you steerig lingages and the areas there fastoned to.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:35 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Well this won't qualify me as a back yard hacker but Adnoh inspired me LOL Well he is an electrician LOL I bought a 10 foot section of 2" conduit as leverage and I think I got it bent back better than New! LOL It was quite easy once I got the Mickey Mouse clamps to hold it in place!


Attachments:
File comment: How I clamp it to trailer
straightnga-arm 001.jpg
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File comment: 10 foot pole
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File comment: fixing to tug on it
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File comment: top view
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File comment: This bolt came off the quad, long enough to just reach across, but not go all the way into the other side, from all views it looks straight and measures right... It was near dark so I left it till this morning!
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