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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:49 am 
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The saga continues, I don't understand why you have to cut and mod its a adjustable bolt on system.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:48 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
The saga continues, I don't understand why you have to cut and mod its a adjustable bolt on system.


Yea that is what he (chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts) say's but when the pieces don't match up it creates problems... Kinda like when pieces are missing or made wrong, creates issues...

Next on agenda is to try something similar to adnoh front end links...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Turbotexas wrote:
hoser wrote:
The saga continues, I don't understand why you have to cut and mod its a adjustable bolt on system.


Yea that is what he (chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts) say's but when the pieces don't match up it creates problems... Kinda like when pieces are missing or made wrong, creates issues...

Next on agenda is to try something similar to adnoh front end links...


Yeah I would hook up with adnoh let him look at it see what he thinks, you also should look at his bump steer setup and fab something similar...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Wow what a nightmare. Can you adjust the ball joints out maybe 1/4 inch,and adjust from there, this will free up some space on the lawyer links for toe adjustment and then you can adjust that camber easier. Can you replace the nut on the outer tie rod end with a smaller jam nut, maybe a combination of the balljoints moved out the 1/4 inch and using jam nut will prevent binding on the lower a-arm. And maybe youve tried all this, LOL, good luck man!!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Turbo. Stop, Please do not cut nothing yet. I just seen post. Let me look over the pics and ask you some questions. I did not like what I seen on the set up. I know you have played with a lot of the setting I hope you log them for a battering line of questions and be willing to start over from zero. If you are I will be happy to walk you through set up one item at a time. Since the hub are stock odysse we will set up the front to those specs and then dial in the arms. I will try to kepp it simple silly.

First of all lets talk terms.

Camber. Camber is negitive and positive. Looking from the front. negitave camber is the top of the tire leaning in toward the frame. Positive camber is top of the tire leaning out away for the frame. Easy right, wrong.

Your Static camber setting is set at ride height. and ride height is set by the shocks spring rate and preload adjusters.

Discussion:

Camber should go form positive of zero to negitive as the suspion is compressed, talk why latter. This is called camber gain thu bump. Bump being compression. This effects the way it turns under load. The static setting dependes on the amount of caster you put in the hub.

Caster. Caster is also negitive and positive. Negitive is never and I mean never used. Looking from the side of the car positive caster is the hub or upringht where the ball joints are boted up. If you line up the holes so the straihgt up and down this is zero and as you move the upper hole backward toward the rear of the machine is goes to a positive setting. The amount of positive caster has and efect on how the car feels at the wheel and help with the self center of the whell when in motion. This also effect the way the car turnes.

Toe, well you got that one and will discuss the relation on handling later. So for now as we discusse caster and camber setting this will stay at zero toe.

Get a handle on this so We can be on the same page because it relly get tuff if you get lost. Please get out pen and paper and date each log setting and the relation to change.

On paper draw a tire and line thu the center of the tire and the center line being zero. do this for the front view and side view. Now you have zero camber and caster. The side view center line is the hub inclanation ( ball joints go there), Caster. The front view is zero camber at ride height. Remember were setting this up at ride height and zero toe.

I'll assume you recieved you arms and kit in pieces with no static setting so yo must do this your self and then adjust to dial in car. It sucks but is a must. The good thing here is you get to get a handle on suspion not most do and how to change for racing effeting the way the car handles to your inputs.

If your willing to do this and see this thu I will continue. Heres a couple pics from a book. I mean no disrespect just need to be on same page so we can follow each other thu discussion. I will try not to get backward if I do call me on it and I hope the board we do also. Please do not change or cut or disamble before were ready. thent hte set up will be easier.

I need to know if you a-arm ars are an uequall lenghts and if the upper arm front imount is higher then the uuper rear mount at frame.

By this I mean looking from the front is the upper mount futher outbound toward the wheel than the lower. I hope so or we may need to rework. This has a big effect on the camber and caster thu bump( compression) and handling. Get me front view pic of the setting now taking the pic from the center of arms getting the whloe arm assembly in pic. I will take and pick it apart for posting and discussion.


Attachments:
bump #1 mock up.jpg
bump #1 mock up.jpg [ 84.62 KiB | Viewed 845 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Yea, what Richard said :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:23 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK Here is what I got accomplished today... I didn't see your post richard in time to stop the cutting, but here are some photos of why I cut what I did...
I don't have heims on the end of these a-arms, so I can only adjust the camber. I think that the castor is set in stone at the spindle I will check that out tomorrow...
I did get the camber to go to 0* and I built some skids because I have never understood why a $750.00 dolar pair of shocks had no protection designed into the lower arm. I found ceder tree fibers in the bushings and decided to protect the investment...
Richard I will take a better look at my castor setting and see if there is any way to adjust it...
I only cut about 3/16 inch off of the driver side, and it seemed like it wasn't enough... So I quit there and went to set the camber and think maybe the passenger side is to short... I have a few more threads showing and will put a washer there to prevent the ball joint from bending...
Tomorrow I want to "hoserize" the lower a-arms with a 3/4" angle iron across the front to keep it from bending when I hit a rock... I have already bent one side first week out... lol


Attachments:
File comment: sitting level on pick up bed...
0416091340-02.jpg
0416091340-02.jpg [ 40.77 KiB | Viewed 824 times ]
File comment: standing side by side...
0416091340-03.jpg
0416091340-03.jpg [ 40.29 KiB | Viewed 824 times ]
File comment: not the same length???
0416091340-04.jpg
0416091340-04.jpg [ 39.67 KiB | Viewed 824 times ]
File comment: one is finished different than the other???
0416091341-01.jpg
0416091341-01.jpg [ 40.16 KiB | Viewed 824 times ]
File comment: Here is the Skid plate I ade for the shock bottom... not fancy but I think it will work...
0416091832-00.jpg
0416091832-00.jpg [ 29.47 KiB | Viewed 824 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:27 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
The subframe is supposed yto be a duplicate of the Pilot...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 am 
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Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
The subframe is supposed yto be a duplicate of the Pilot...


Right in theory you should be able to put those arms on the Pilot, I assume the steering is different?

He never thought about protecting the shocks because he never rides and when he does its on dunes or a groomed track.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:00 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
The subframe is supposed yto be a duplicate of the Pilot...


Right in theory you should be able to put those arms on the Pilot, I assume the steering is different?

He never thought about protecting the shocks because he never rides and when he does its on dunes or a groomed track.


I have never had the chance to crawl under a pilot... but from what I saw before I purchased this it is the same steering link stuff. In the pilot kit you have to weld the bracket that holds the large heim that the lawyer link drags thru???
I agree on why he never thought of the shock being exposed... but even in sand I would want it protected... I can't remember ever seeing an ATV or even a sand car with this exposed like this...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK Richard/adnoh I couldn't get much done so far today, raining cats and dogs here... I did cut loose one of the struts that are in place of the shocks and do see a slight camber change as I go to full compression... But I do not have the tie rods in place at this time... I did notice it seems the toe changes as I lift on the a-arms as it goes up it toes out more??? could this be because of the position of the ball joints/castor???


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
OK here is what I have so far... I installed new ball joints, and to get the hub to be level vertically I had to play with the threading... where the arrows are is the difference in the gap... I am wondering if I got one of these infamous blem kits I just learned about??? http://www.minibuggy.net/modules.php?na ... 5019#65019


Mudbogger's kit was a blem too.

You can tell moskito likes playing the heavy LMAO Better watch out he might beat you with his purse...
How come he is the only moderator that has a problem with you?

"Funny" how you get the definition of blem but atvmutt has not post what the blem is.... its almost gone "priceless"


here is a current link to the Blem kit...
http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/sale/821 ... m-kit.html


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK Adnoh (Honda backwards...) I got some pictures for you...
these 3 are of my cambor at static, and full droop and full comp... at full droop it stayed at 0* which I think is good...
at full bump or comp, it was at 5* is that good or bad???


Attachments:
File comment: rain drop must have fogged up the lens...
camber at static.jpg [69.17 KiB]
Downloaded 129 times
File comment: see the tin on the ground...
camber at full droop.jpg
camber at full droop.jpg [ 191.46 KiB | Viewed 706 times ]
File comment: this is all the way up as far as the a-arms would let me go, further than the shocks will allow me to go...
camber at full comp.jpg
camber at full comp.jpg [ 147.38 KiB | Viewed 706 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Now the fun part, I tried several different methods and they all appeared to come up with the same conclusion... my castor is not pretty, almost 0* or even a 1-2* positive... I will have smeone (GF) help me double check it later but here are some pics...


Attachments:
File comment: drivers side
drivers castor.jpg
drivers castor.jpg [ 73.01 KiB | Viewed 367 times ]
File comment: passenger side
passenger castor.jpg
passenger castor.jpg [ 122.63 KiB | Viewed 706 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
here is why I think the casror is bad... look at the threaded pieces that the ball joints screw into, they are cocked in two different directios and prevent the spindle from haveing the negative castor... sorry for the poor pictures...


Attachments:
File comment: the lines are an approximation...
pass plumb shot.jpg
pass plumb shot.jpg [ 284.82 KiB | Viewed 706 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I sent chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts an E-mail...

Would you please forward me your new and improved directions for this A-Arm kit I purchased a year and a half ago. I need a cambor and castor setting. in degrees please. Is there a way of adjusting the castor angle?
Thank You,
David Mills


Let's hope he will be willing to help...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Turbotexas wrote:
here is why I think the casror is bad... look at the threaded pieces that the ball joints screw into, they are cocked in two different directios and prevent the spindle from haveing the negative castor... sorry for the poor pictures...


You can adjust the hiem joints to change the caster, looking at your pic to make the TOP ball joint move forward of the lower ball joint you would need to turn IN the upper forward hiem joint OR shorten it up, you would see LESS threads when you adjust it.

Follow me?

You also could turn in the BOTTOM rear hiem to move the BOTTOM ball joint towards the rear.

I would adjust the one that has the most threads showing, the most adjustment...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Ok. You have camber change on bump. Negitive or positive? Put hub in ride hiehgt position and see what change you have ride height to full bump ( compressed) and ride height to full rebound ( extended). SInce the upper arms do not have hiems ( bummer) and you welded in the mounts was there a templete to use or did the upper and lower come together and than welded to frame. What I'am tring to get at here is, if the mount is off so is the caster. This can be fixed easy if the arms were made from standrd chromoly, a bung can be welded in and a hiem used to fix caster issue if there is one. I would bet the stock odysse hubs camber setting was zero. If you cut the ball joint mount on the arms so it could be moved no big deal. The futhure its mountd in the stronger and the great wheelrate change you can get. If you cut the lower arm it must have had a negitive cambe problem. This may be ok depending on the camber gian thu travle. I will touch why later. We need first to log what its doing and than work on corrections. Please get me the info on camber change. The skid plate good idea.

Please list problems from worse to least and We will come up with fix's or at least try. I opened up a work book for this so start post #'s and info.

Since the lower arms are off lets strat there. From center line of pivots how long are the arms and from center of pivot. How far to the center of shock hole from center of pivots. We will add the ball joint to this # as we go to set arm netural and set up shocks. Yes it's important.

Oh ya forget the set up instruction. Let do it our way.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
NO hiem joints... just a tube with a bushing thru it, then a 7/16 bolt thru the mounting tabs...


hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
here is why I think the casror is bad... look at the threaded pieces that the ball joints screw into, they are cocked in two different directios and prevent the spindle from haveing the negative castor... sorry for the poor pictures...


You can adjust the hiem joints to change the caster, looking at your pic to make the TOP ball joint move forward of the lower ball joint you would need to turn IN the upper forward hiem joint OR shorten it up, you would see LESS threads when you adjust it.

Follow me?

You also could turn in the BOTTOM rear hiem to move the BOTTOM ball joint towards the rear.

I would adjust the one that has the most threads showing, the most adjustment...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:25 pm 
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Correct me if Im wrong Hoser as Im still learning but are there are no heims on his arms, see pic at the bottom. http://pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.ph ... &start=216


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:27 pm 
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I will go over all the pics tonoight and tlet you know tommorow. You want negitive caster gain under bump. Good. Do not look at the ball joint mount but the ball joint line looking straight down. What you are noticing the effect of unequal and the upper arm front mount higher than the rear. that's also good.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK The camper changed none when it went from static to droop... only a small 4-5 inch droop though... I should jack up the front to get more travel? It did change when in full bump 4-5* negative... remember though this is with out the shocks attached...
The Subframe is bolted on and Maker claims it is a duplicate of the Pilot mountingpoints... In other words I could put a stock set of a-arms onto there if I wanted to...
These are not cromoloy but DOM I will post measurement I took yesterday before I cut anything... there were some discrepencies... I was wanting to take the toy hauler to witchita and stay a few days to let you look at this, but that white stuff keeps falling from the sky???
Thank you...

adnoh wrote:
Ok. You have camber change on bump. Negitive or positive? Put hub in ride hiehgt position and see what change you have ride height to full bump ( compressed) and ride height to full rebound ( extended). SInce the upper arms do not have hiems ( bummer) and you welded in the mounts was there a templete to use or did the upper and lower come together and than welded to frame. What I'am tring to get at here is, if the mount is off so is the caster. This can be fixed easy if the arms were made from standrd chromoly, a bung can be welded in and a hiem used to fix caster issue if there is one. I would bet the stock odysse hubs camber setting was zero. If you cut the ball joint mount on the arms so it could be moved no big deal. The futhure its mountd in the stronger and the great wheelrate change you can get. If you cut the lower arm it must have had a negitive cambe problem. This may be ok depending on the camber gian thu travle. I will touch why later. We need first to log what its doing and than work on corrections. Please get me the info on camber change. The skid plate good idea.

Please list problems from worse to least and We will come up with fix's or at least try. I opened up a work book for this so start post #'s and info.

Since the lower arms are off lets strat there. From center line of pivots how long are the arms and from center of pivot. How far to the center of shock hole from center of pivots. We will add the ball joint to this # as we go to set arm netural and set up shocks. Yes it's important.

Oh ya forget the set up instruction. Let do it our way.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
adnoh wrote:
I will go over all the pics tonoight and tlet you know tommorow. You want negitive caster gain under bump. Good. Do not look at the ball joint mount but the ball joint line looking straight down. What you are noticing the effect of unequal and the upper arm front mount higher than the rear. that's also good.


I was only measureing cambor (top to bottom NOT front to BACK) when I posted the 3 photos did I mess up and call them wrong???


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
NO hiem joints... just a tube with a bushing thru it, then a 7/16 bolt thru the mounting tabs...


hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
here is why I think the casror is bad... look at the threaded pieces that the ball joints screw into, they are cocked in two different directios and prevent the spindle from haveing the negative castor... sorry for the poor pictures...


You can adjust the hiem joints to change the caster, looking at your pic to make the TOP ball joint move forward of the lower ball joint you would need to turn IN the upper forward hiem joint OR shorten it up, you would see LESS threads when you adjust it.

Follow me?

You also could turn in the BOTTOM rear hiem to move the BOTTOM ball joint towards the rear.

I would adjust the one that has the most threads showing, the most adjustment...


Their is part of the problem lol YODA kit has them too bad he don't make a kit for the 350 :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:57 am 
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No your not wong, YOUR RIGHT ON MY MAN. Way to go. The purpose of negitive camber gain is to offset body roll keeping tire contact patch levle with the ground using all the turning traction to pull front end around cornor.The more meat on the street the more traction you have to use. This is why the uneven arm are used. Now take a rectangle and draw it in a 5 degree tilt and draw you arm in full bump with the tire levle. This is maxium traction force to which more weight transfr can be added, maybe. If you get this, now think about at whcih speed you turn in a cornor and forces applied to the tire. If the shock compressed 2 to 3 inches the tire would be at 75% traction( example will get to the math later). Now if you were to dial in 2 dergees of negitve camber the tire would be 90% of it traction at that compression ( shock ging into bump) rate. Now it will pull around the cornor better. don't just assume this is what to do it may not be. An example would be it turned fine at 75% tire tractionand had understeer on entry and over steer on exit. by adding camber it would oversteer quicker and try to come around on you which effects the slip angle under accerlation . The key here is steering input. The steering wheel will tell you. If your tring to correct to hold line the tire is looseing traction via a slip angle which would require you to back off the gas. I will break this out for you later. Fisrt undeer and oveer steer.

If you can not tell what its doing you can not adjust effectivly. Undestanding the effects of input is key. One of the best speed secerets I can share is less change to input the faster you will be and less effect on output. Plus the lees you mees with behind the wheel the more you will be focused on where your going. Lightspped once said my butt must be very sensitive. He was right. On a lighter side an movie example ( you being in a movie) of this would. In Days of thunder where the crew chief said heres the tires his way and here the tires my way. Its easy to drive straight its the cornors which will have the greatest effect on speed.

I know bla bla bla.

One other thing I would like to touch on and for you keep in mind is. When we alll and I mean most all of use we set are bikes up levle and in a strihgt line. This is key for static setting for adjustments. Next what I like to do is once the static setting is done it to remove the shock and lower the frame to ride height. Now take a pic of the front with wheel straight and turned to lock each way. You will see the effects of the camber and caster. If you uppers were adjustable( which I recomend) if you were to take out some caster it effect the camber when the wheels are turned. and vise a versa. If the wheel felt heavy you could take out 1 to 2 degrees of caster and dial in camber to keep traction forces up This will effect the tunr in under and over steer. A caster change will also effect this but the camber can not be reset and there is a trade off for the slip anlge on accerlation. Once you get pics change your bump rate, 2 to 3 inches the 4 to 5 and reshoot then do full extended ( rebounded). This should open you eye's to the handling effect changed by compression rate and body role. Then you set for that rate. It's all about where you want to be not were your at.

Understeer:
This is were the car needs MORE than normial sterring angle to go around the cornor. The FRONT tires loose traction and slip ( push) toward the outside of a turn. You turn the whell and it goes stright.

Oversteer:
This is were the car needs LESS than nornial steering angle to go around the cornor. The REAR tires lose tractionand slip ( coming around) toward the out side of a turn. You turn the well and the rear slides

These examples are steering input only no BREAKING or ACCERLATION. This is when the car has taken set and steering input takes place. Here is where the cornor weights come into play as well as spring rates and static load on the shock and the compresson levles as welll as CASTER and CAMBER. Your shocks have compression adjusters time to use them. Granted there only comprssion and not low and high speed compression but they have an effect. The shock setting will control body role or roll stiffeness which effect the negitive camber cain under bump which effects the front tire loading and undeer and oveersteer. See how it related.


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