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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I haven't ridden this one enough to have hit anything LOL I do know it has been in mud twice so that might have been where this problem came from! I am just glad I caught it early! I noticed on second day of videos the noise, only when I was slowing down and was guessing it was brakes...
I started making a tool to pull axle bases off for when I get the parrts from service... I am going to put it up on my trailer/workbench LOL and strap it down and attach a comealong to it to pull these off... Will that work? or better to make a hammer thing on the end of it? I have enough chains and ratchet binders to secure it and slowly ratchet the stubs off... it will probably take a full day of pb blaster/ and a small click of tension at a time...

hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
here is what I got started on the bearings...


Get the flange out then take a punch and drive the bearings out from the inside.

Time to check the other side looks like the grease on this side was all dried up?


the other side didn't look bad, but when I get my parts for the tranny seal I will replace every thing on the other side too...


If you ever hit anything hard enough to dent or bend a rim on a Pilot change the bearings no matter how good they feel they will fail shortly after usually when your far from camp at your favorite riding area :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaQYbiKj43w


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
ok I got the bearings replaced and put everything back together so I could make one last video with the shocks at 125 psi...
not worth a ship... you can see it almost bottoms while I am turning...
I can't believe that me being 20 pounds heavier would make these things ride so much different from trevors setup?
I am half way done with putting the stock shocks back on...
For mud and Stone when you put the brackets on you need to make a spacer equal to the stock shock to keep the bolt from squeezing the stock bracket closed when installing... Also need to have a spacer to match the stock shock width down low when you go to tighten the lower shock bolt or it wil bend the shock plate... Maybe just need to cut a new piece of copper tubing to match the stock shock bushing!
Another thing to work on for the next guys that use these is the rubber bushings up top are so difficult to get to fit in between the brackets...


Attachments:
125psi 009.jpg
125psi 009.jpg [ 328.06 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
File comment: A little patience and some GOOD TOOLS and these came out...
125psi 001.jpg
125psi 001.jpg [ 322.81 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
File comment: is this hole to add grease? why is it tapped all the way threw??? Why isn't there a zerk in these???
125psi 002.jpg
125psi 002.jpg [ 321.86 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
here are some more... I used some caveman tools and buggered up the race area of the carrier but was able to smooth it out with a dremel tool... I am no Speedchaser LOL


Attachments:
125psi 003.jpg
125psi 003.jpg [ 59.15 KiB | Viewed 1254 times ]
125psi 004.jpg
125psi 004.jpg [ 50.41 KiB | Viewed 1254 times ]
File comment: I used the old bearing to tap down the dust seal and bought a 1 13/16 socket for 6 dollars at tractor supply
125psi 005.jpg
125psi 005.jpg [ 71.85 KiB | Viewed 1254 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
ok I got the bearings replaced and put everything back together so I could make one last video with the shocks at 125 psi...
not worth a ship... you can see it almost bottoms while I am turning...
I can't believe that me being 20 pounds heavier would make these things ride so much different from trevors setup?
I am half way done with putting the stock shocks back on...
For mud and Stone when you put the brackets on you need to make a spacer equal to the stock shock to keep the bolt from squeezing the stock bracket closed when installing... Also need to have a spacer to match the stock shock width down low when you go to tighten the lower shock bolt or it wil bend the shock plate... Maybe just need to cut a new piece of copper tubing to match the stock shock bushing!
Another thing to work on for the next guys that use these is the rubber bushings up top are so difficult to get to fit in between the brackets...


Read all this yet?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
ok I got the bearings replaced and put everything back together so I could make one last video with the shocks at 125 psi...
not worth a ship... you can see it almost bottoms while I am turning...
I can't believe that me being 20 pounds heavier would make these things ride so much different from trevors setup?
I am half way done with putting the stock shocks back on...
For mud and Stone when you put the brackets on you need to make a spacer equal to the stock shock to keep the bolt from squeezing the stock bracket closed when installing... Also need to have a spacer to match the stock shock width down low when you go to tighten the lower shock bolt or it wil bend the shock plate... Maybe just need to cut a new piece of copper tubing to match the stock shock bushing!
Another thing to work on for the next guys that use these is the rubber bushings up top are so difficult to get to fit in between the brackets...


Read all this yet?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html


yes I did...
in hindsight I think I would have been happier with the works shocks... I want to ride not tune... I am sending these back to get different compression/rebound thingies in them! I will have to buy the kit with the adapter and some oil I am sure to get these to work right...
The 2 biggeset reasons I went this route instead of the works was thw cost, which the kit was a unknown at the time...
The ability to easily resale these was #2 reason... I will eventually do a long travel in the rear like adnoh

What shocks are you using that have the rezzies?
Are they an air shock or emulsion shocks like these... If these are even emulsion shocks???
http://downsouthmotorsports.com/i-13449 ... hafts.html

The guy that sold these to me told me these shocks are not designed for high speed running, and he warned me it would be difficult to get them dialed in right... And after reading the pirate link I agree...

If it were not or the video's I made I would have no Idea how to tell him what is wrong, or what I don't like about the ride

$426.00 initial cost
$65.00 second day air (my choice he offers free shipping!)
$40.00 to the #$$h0^% with the nitrogen
$60.00 I am guessing to ship these to CA and BACK
$425.00 for a kit I just googled this... http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Nit ... -p-56.html build your own goes to about $300.00


works shocks mount once and tune while you ride... no need to go back to the shop and remove shock to add oil etc...

$750.00 maybe a bit more... looking at chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts site


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Turbo, how can you be sure the WORKS arent going to provide the same ride? I understand the WORKS are coil-overs, but is that alone the only difference between the 2 and will that alone solve the ride issues?Try going up to 200 psi with the oil you currently have-might be alittle better on the rebound-can't hurt to try it at the stage your in right?I can't see you buying a set of shocks until you have exhausted all options for the FOX'S.Have you call FOX and asked a tech by chance for some advice for the oil/air conbinations?I figured these shaocks were good for tuning, but now I see the might not be.
The kit LUTREV sold doesnt have the shims needed for tightening the shocks?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
'The guy that sold these to me told me these shocks are not designed for high speed running, and he warned me it would be difficult to get them dialed in right... And after reading the pirate link I agree'

What did he say the application was good for? Turbo, trails, on/off throttle, I am curious as my riding here up North is way different then you guys down South, we have tight trails heavy rocks, gravel,etc where as the riding for you may be wide open runs, sand dunes, etc.Mabye these arent what you need after all -but may be good for us Northeasters.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Mudbogger wrote:
Turbo, how can you be sure the WORKS arent going to provide the same ride? I understand the WORKS are coil-overs, but is that alone the only difference between the 2 and will that alone solve the ride issues?Try going up to 200 psi with the oil you currently have-might be alittle better on the rebound-can't hurt to try it at the stage your in right?I can't see you buying a set of shocks until you have exhausted all options for the FOX'S.Have you call FOX and asked a tech by chance for some advice for the oil/air conbinations?I figured these shaocks were good for tuning, but now I see the might not be.
The kit LUTREV sold doesnt have the shims needed for tightening the shocks?


I am extremally pleased with the works on the ODY!!! yes when I first got them I had to make some adjustments to find my happy spot but I could stop in the desert, get out make some adjustments and get back in and go! No going back to the truck/shop and dragging out a "kit" to change psi, or like in my case I think (key word there is THINK) I need more oil to keep me from bottoming out... so I would have to go back to truck remove shock add oil and reinstall... So yes they are extremely tunable not easily tunable...
And as many DIFFERENT places I ride at I want easily tunable...

I will most likely use these since i am this deep into them, and when I get around to redoing the rear I will replace with a different shock...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
I am using the same shocks you are using I added the reservoirs to them, you use the same shocks for a LT kit in the future you just adjust the oil level and nitrogen pressure, nice thing about the air shocks is you never have to buy springs to change the spring rate, I had FOX send me the valve stacks when mine was still under the valve guarantee and I changed them myself VS sending them back to FOX, I saved on shipping and ended up with about 100 bux worth of valve shims by time I was done I can use for future shock tuning.

I would like a explanation as to why they guy says they wont work in high speed running the valving assembly is the same one used in their spring over shocks so the only difference would be the shaft size.. Back in the stadium lite days 90% used these shocks.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Mudbogger wrote:
'The guy that sold these to me told me these shocks are not designed for high speed running, and he warned me it would be difficult to get them dialed in right... And after reading the pirate link I agree'

What did he say the application was good for? Turbo, trails, on/off throttle, I am curious as my riding here up North is way different then you guys down South, we have tight trails heavy rocks, gravel,etc where as the riding for you may be wide open runs, sand dunes, etc.Mabye these arent what you need after all -but may be good for us Northeasters.


Reading the pirate link leads me to believe they are designed for rockcrawlers...
Reading the link to the redline forums some of them are swapping out the stock airshocks for something else...
I like the Fox coilovers I have up front!!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
I am using the same shocks you are using I added the reservoirs to them, you use the same shocks for a LT kit in the future you just adjust the oil level and nitrogen pressure, nice thing about the air shocks is you never have to buy springs to change the spring rate, I had FOX send me the valve stacks when mine was still under the valve guarantee and I changed them myself VS sending them back to FOX, I saved on shipping and ended up with about 100 bux worth of valve shims by time I was done I can use for future shock tuning.

I would like a explanation as to why they guy says they wont work in high speed running the valving assembly is the same one used in their spring over shocks so the only difference would be the shaft size.. Back in the stadium lite days 90% used these shocks.


I think his words were that is is hard to make them work... I wish I had your skills so I could change them myself...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Turbo, how can you be sure the WORKS arent going to provide the same ride? I understand the WORKS are coil-overs, but is that alone the only difference between the 2 and will that alone solve the ride issues?Try going up to 200 psi with the oil you currently have-might be alittle better on the rebound-can't hurt to try it at the stage your in right?I can't see you buying a set of shocks until you have exhausted all options for the FOX'S.Have you call FOX and asked a tech by chance for some advice for the oil/air conbinations?I figured these shaocks were good for tuning, but now I see the might not be.
The kit LUTREV sold doesnt have the shims needed for tightening the shocks?


I am extremally pleased with the works on the ODY!!! yes when I first got them I had to make some adjustments to find my happy spot but I could stop in the desert, get out make some adjustments and get back in and go! No going back to the truck/shop and dragging out a "kit" to change psi, or like in my case I think (key word there is THINK) I need more oil to keep me from bottoming out... so I would have to go back to truck remove shock add oil and reinstall... So yes they are extremely tunable not easily tunable...
And as many DIFFERENT places I ride at I want easily tunable...

I will most likely use these since i am this deep into them, and when I get around to redoing the rear I will replace with a different shock...


NO NO NO


You would go back to the truck and jack up the Pilot until the shock was 100% extended, blow off the nitrogen, remove the shrader, add oil, fill with nitrogen then GO.

Once they are adjusted your done, I went years without adjusting mine then I decided to try a few ideas to make mine adjustable without adding or removing oil http://pilotodyssey.com/FOXAirShox.htm

Then just recently I made more changes I went to a larger diameter hose between the reservoirs so I will have to play with them again to get back dialed in.

If your the type that wants to adjust your shocks for each riding area then STOP and sell these and go buy works, I get the feeling you already have it in your head these will never work right (That guy told you so), that coupled with you totally not liking the stock shocks (your the first I seen to totally diss the stock rears on a Pilot) figure you will play with these for another 6 months, dump another 300 bux into them then end up selling, I would sell now and cut your losses.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
'The guy that sold these to me told me these shocks are not designed for high speed running, and he warned me it would be difficult to get them dialed in right... And after reading the pirate link I agree'

What did he say the application was good for? Turbo, trails, on/off throttle, I am curious as my riding here up North is way different then you guys down South, we have tight trails heavy rocks, gravel,etc where as the riding for you may be wide open runs, sand dunes, etc.Mabye these arent what you need after all -but may be good for us Northeasters.


Reading the pirate link leads me to believe they are designed for rockcrawlers...
Reading the link to the redline forums some of them are swapping out the stock airshocks for something else...
I like the Fox coilovers I have up front!!


I read some of the redline guys comments on shocks, they are die hard coil over shock guys, the only experience they have is with coil overs they have absolutely no clue how the air shocks work, most didnt even research them they just thre money at the redline and bought new shocks, don't make them bad just uninformed.

Many redline owners cant get over the the body roll yet at the same time never tell you what it hurts, I assume they all drive a car with stiff suspension like a Vette or something sporty, my Pilot never steered good until I installed the FOX airs and got the weight to shift so the turn tire (outside tire) had enough weight so it could bite.

I suggest you sell yours I can see you have it in your head they will never work, its plain to see these shocks are not for you..


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Actually I have only changed my shocks on the ody once... Here at home the neighborhood track is real flat with small jumps, so I adjusted the preload to take out some f the bodyroll... which rode like crap in the desert... So I went back to the settings I had for the desert and lived with the bodyroll... once I got used to it it was ok... If I ever had to race on a similar track I could easily adjust and whip some butt... I watched this video and the revolt has too much roll...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OALachj ... re=related

I know they work great for you but you have skills I don't...
My opinion on the stock shocks was based on the initial set I had having blown seals...
but the pair I have now still bounces in the rear just not as bad as these fox's do at this time!
I am sure once the downsouth motorsports guys send them back I will be happy! It was my bad that I didn't give him enough info when I ordered them...
Mud the shocks you have settings for is for the front... The rears might be different

hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Turbo, how can you be sure the WORKS arent going to provide the same ride? I understand the WORKS are coil-overs, but is that alone the only difference between the 2 and will that alone solve the ride issues?Try going up to 200 psi with the oil you currently have-might be alittle better on the rebound-can't hurt to try it at the stage your in right?I can't see you buying a set of shocks until you have exhausted all options for the FOX'S.Have you call FOX and asked a tech by chance for some advice for the oil/air conbinations?I figured these shaocks were good for tuning, but now I see the might not be.
The kit LUTREV sold doesnt have the shims needed for tightening the shocks?


I am extremally pleased with the works on the ODY!!! yes when I first got them I had to make some adjustments to find my happy spot but I could stop in the desert, get out make some adjustments and get back in and go! No going back to the truck/shop and dragging out a "kit" to change psi, or like in my case I think (key word there is THINK) I need more oil to keep me from bottoming out... so I would have to go back to truck remove shock add oil and reinstall... So yes they are extremely tunable not easily tunable...
And as many DIFFERENT places I ride at I want easily tunable...

I will most likely use these since i am this deep into them, and when I get around to redoing the rear I will replace with a different shock...


NO NO NO


You would go back to the truck and jack up the Pilot until the shock was 100% extended, blow off the nitrogen, remove the shrader, add oil, fill with nitrogen then GO.

Once they are adjusted your done, I went years without adjusting mine then I decided to try a few ideas to make mine adjustable without adding or removing oil http://pilotodyssey.com/FOXAirShox.htm

Then just recently I made more changes I went to a larger diameter hose between the reservoirs so I will have to play with them again to get back dialed in.

If your the type that wants to adjust your shocks for each riding area then STOP and sell these and go buy works, I get the feeling you already have it in your head these will never work right (That guy told you so), that coupled with you totally not liking the stock shocks (your the first I seen to totally diss the stock rears on a Pilot) figure you will play with these for another 6 months, dump another 300 bux into them then end up selling, I would sell now and cut your losses.


You know me well LOL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Quote:
You know me well LOL


Well I am hope I am wrong :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I want you to know I am not upset at you trev! The douche who charged me 40 did get under my skin! I went down to 125 psi on the reccomendation of the guy at downsouth! He wanted to see the difference BEFORE I sent them back! If he is willing to redo them on his dime. I am going to do what he asks!
As far as the spacers - used a torque wrench on the lower mount at 33 ft/pounds and it bent the shock mount plate. The top mount - tightened up enough to get both nuts on. My top mounts must be different than yours were because it was loose when I slid the bracket on! I was not complaining, just informing! I got pictures at home but I am on the blackberry...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Hey Turbo. I been reading and logging info. The "stock setting" is a base line number for which adjustment are made from. So the 125 are a drop in base line setting and 210 is an increase from base line if 200 are the base line (stock setting). I have two different base line setting listed for these shocks. So I see some confusion. I watched and watched you videos. I do not understand these shocks so advise from me would be poor. If it were a coil over the fix would be obvious. I'm not saying go get coil over shocks just saying it's an easy fix. The shock for this kit is new and will not work the same for everyone. Please do not give up on an inexpensive option. Being new there's a guinea pig variable. The data you provide is essential for others to dial in there kit. A simple fact here is you will spend some cash to get them right and help other from spending there hard earned cash if you do not give up. I like the way they look, I like the way the work, I see the potential for increase performance for the value of the dollar. Please take notes of your work so you and others know where you started and you can provide good recommendations.

Your rear shock is simply running out of stroke. This is poundage. If you add preload (increase in ride height) the poundage has not changed. You have just increased the amount of stroke. Look at it this way 200 inch pounds is 200 inch pounds. For every inch of stroke it increases 200 lbs. SO if you have 8.5 inches of stroke you have 1700 pounds of bottom out poundage. This is based off of a liner spring. These 200 lbs per inch example is a liner spring. SO if you add preload the only thing you changed is the static preload or the amount of poundage applied to offset the weight of the vehicle. The bottom out poundage has not changed. It will still bottom out at 1700 lbs based on a one to one ratio you have. The 1 to 1 is shaft travel to wheel travel ratio. If the wheel travel were 12 with 8.5-inch shaft travel the ratio would be around 1.4 to 1. Either way the bottom poundage is the same but the wheel rate poundage is different for one inch of wheel travel, softer rate. So is the fox air a linier or non-linier rate shock.

What would one do to have an effect on the set poundage?

Compression rate, the resistance to the fluid flow based on gas pressure. This is done by making it harder for the fluid (oil) to flow, which the spring must over come. The negative effect is a rough ride at 20 to 70% of stroke.

I'll add a side note here:

You documented well the fact that the sock is bottoming out. This is where a portion of your kick is coming from in this case. In the video you shock bottoms out prior to the bike rising over the lip. This is like having no travel at all (aka, fl250) and the kick is a result of this. Until the shock is set not bottom out to soon in this case (I stress in this case) the control of the rear suspension cannot be fixed. Compression damping will help and also will have other related low speed problems if you try to fix bottom out poundage with compression rate. I call this a band-aid fix.
I will not go into this to deep as not to compound the issue. As a rule the lower the ride height the stiffer the spring rate, higher the ride height softer the spring rate. This will provide a supple ride and provide the greatest wheel control over obstacles.

Since I have ZERO knowledge in these shocks how to fix bottom issue you will need to take those who knows advice. If adding oil is the key than do it. If there is a ratio of oil to gas than that is what you do no exceptions. Do it or suffer the results. You also need to know that if you shock gas is too low this will cause what is referred to as cavitation. This will also cause the shock to bottom by loose of fluid control against the gas. Since gas is used to adjust the static load of the shock (weight of the machine compared to the shock shaft length for ride height) and there is a minimum for gas pressure so cavitation does not accrue. Is this a cavitation issue of simple a poundage problem? Only the professionals at FOX can tell you here. They will need to know how much weight is on the rear tire at what shaft length with what setting you have (aka stock settings) to advise you on corrective action. Do you see how the spring rate now relates? Your dealing with 8.5 inches of shaft travel, which is different from the 7" stock or the 12" LT. and your rear wheel rate

Now since you have the poundage thing down let discuss compression and the effect on shaft travel during what is documented in you video. Simple put you’re to soft for the oil/pressure your running. This is very noticeable form the simple fact of acceleration. Your using too much shaft travel during acceleration. Yes spring rate also plays a part here as well. This is why you first need to fix poundage (the spring rate) and then compression. This fact that the shaft rate is excessive for acceleration which allows in your case too much weight transfer and affects the motion ratio and basically effects the turning ratio of the front end by removing weight of the front end. You have read in the past about balance. Now you are felling and seeing the effect. So what is to blame here? Surprise it's the front shock setting as well as the rear poundage. This is real obvious by the fact that your video showed low speed plow as you accelerate form a dead stop with the wheels turned and the amount of rear shaft travel (squat). If its bad here just imagine the effect at high speed coming out of a corner on the gas, who knew. It will be a big hand full and basically slow you down. This will also cause a very bad effect know as by cycling and endo. I like to call in walking a tight wire, a little to far and you fall. You also will notice if you accelerate threw the whoops it's like riding a bull, it will throw you around out of control and cause you to hang on for the ride.

This balance issue is a little harder to solve. So think about this slowly. At it squats in the rear the front shocks are extending. Why? You are removing the static load (weight at rest) from the front shock and the spring is extending to predetermined pre load poundage. Could this be why, Lutrev and "H" ‘s, do not react the same way as your with the same or close to same so called stock or base line settings. See why I collect data. I have it down that all have diff front shock than you. And I would bet there all set different from spring rates etc. How would the difference have an effect well refer back to poundage according to shaft length and you will see the ratio. What would happen if the font was set for 40% verses 20% again refer to above. Recap for reference: longer travel/ greater sag /stiffer spring rate, same travel/ less sag /softer spring rate. This is done by dual rate springs or a non linier (variable rate spring). The bottom out poundage at shaft travel dictates this for a smooth motion ratio. Hence change in balance to the rear under acceleration. Remember as you unload the front end the front shock will return to it's static setting in poundage with the exception of the unsprung weight as a factor. See what a rebound front adjustable shock now has to do with it as a adjustment. The rebound control will help slow down the front unload once your rear is close as a fine adjustment. This is not the main function of the front rebound but it will have a very slight diff on handling.

I feel I might be getting off track on how the front is an issue you must solve as a piece of the puzzle. I just wanted you to think about the whole machine and how the front will play into this under YOUR issue. If you set up the rear to soft you will be chasing steering (under steer) if to stiff you will be chasing your tail (over steer). If you do correct the poundage you will be kicking forever and maybe kicking your tire as well.

For the sake of the board and future fox installers do not give up on this application. Plus with your front shock as mentioned the works static setting may not work either. Then what. I would recommend fixing bottom out poundage first and then go from they’re keeping in mind you plan on installing Yoda's kit and then what. Yes start over. Collect the data so you can adjust once you install your front end and then maybe what adnoh did in the rear. My rear will not work as it's set for Yoda's arm with out adjustments. I have logged data so it most like could.

Hang in their Turbo I like turbo vision. Plus the shock look like it does work well.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Quote:
Your rear shock is simply running out of stroke. This is poundage. If you add preload (increase in ride height) the poundage has not changed. You have just increased the amount of stroke. Look at it this way 200 inch pounds is 200 inch pounds. For every inch of stroke it increases 200 lbs. SO if you have 8.5 inches of stroke you have 1700 pounds of bottom out poundage. This is based off of a liner spring. These 200 lbs per inch example is a liner spring. SO if you add preload the only thing you changed is the static preload or the amount of poundage applied to offset the weight of the vehicle. The bottom out poundage has not changed. It will still bottom out at 1700 lbs based on a one to one ratio you have. The 1 to 1 is shaft travel to wheel travel ratio. If the wheel travel were 12 with 8.5-inch shaft travel the ratio would be around 1.4 to 1. Either way the bottom poundage is the same but the wheel rate poundage is different for one inch of wheel travel, softer rate. So is the fox air a linier or non-linier rate shock.


You simply add more oil to increase the compression ratio in the shock so the spring rate increases more before it reaches the end of its stroke preventing it from bottoming out, be like adding 1/4" oil in your Pilots cylinder the piston would never reach TDC (Top Dead Center) because the oil used up all the space and it would slow down faster as it reached TDC (Top Dead Center) because your compression ratio went sky high!

Download this and play with the numbers you can probably figure out exactly how many ounces of oil required to fix it. http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... _chart.xls your a numbers guy you will probably love that litte app.

That download comes from this article on these shocks.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html

I am not a numbers guy I just guess at the oil, I know that 30cc = 1" of oil in the reservoir or the body of the shock, if go do a huge jump where I am sure I have used all my shocks stroke then stop and look at the oring and see I didnt use the last 1" of the stroke I would just remove 15cc oil -recharge the shock and go try it again, by removing the 15cc I would go up 5-10 psi on the as found nitrogen pressure. I only guess because its IMPOSSIBLE for anybody to setup shocks for every type of riding, my shocks are adjusted to give me comfort over 'most' the terrain I will ever put it on, IMO it works well on everything, if you wanted to you could make the FOX airs completely adjustable from the drivers seat and adjust them whilst driving, compression and rebound adjustments, shaft speed adjustments, compression ratio adjustments, nitrogen pressure adjustments, if you wanted to go super shock homo and be the king of the offroad shock queers you could hook that system up to a computer, add a few sensors and have the computer adjust it for you in real time based off the last shock stroke, its all how much you want to spend, how much complexity you want to add to your machine, how much weight you want to add.

The bore on my reservoirs is the same as the shocks so I could probably use that program on my shocks too by playing with the input numbers.

I cant understand why others spend 5x more on big name custom shocks and the final results is they
are ---->.......<----- that much better than my cheap POS setup over the same terrain, only thing I can think of its prestige or physiological gains they live for.

You have followed Old Blue around the dunes before? I have followed it for hundreds of miles probably closer to thousands of miles that suspension works perfect and after following Drakmans new Drakart I would say Old Blue offered a better and smoother ride, Alain really had those shocks dialed in nice on Old Blue!

When I remove all the nitrogen out of my rear FOX airs and check the total travel I am getting 9" my findings are with the suspension all stock that's about all your going to get, I doubt Turbo's shocks are too short unless he is running a different length?

The thing that hurts the Pilot the most is the length of the travel, my findings are that even with 9" of travel in the rear its not enough travel for the tires to follow the bumps entirely at full speed so you end up with the rear tires off the ground more than one would desire, the tire rebounds fast enough the car is just too far off the ground for it to reach lol now follow a Drakart through the same terrain and watch what the extra travel does.

Play with that shock program I think you will understand these shocks better, remember as the shaft goes in its displacing the oil volume in the shock compressing the nitrogen then the spring rate goes up, now if you add a external reservoir their is no nitrogen in the shock body its in the reservoir so their is a flow of oil both ways as the shock is stroked, control the flow of that oil you have compression and rebound adjustments, adjust the volume of oil in the reservoir and you control the compression ratio or the spring rate and the rising rate, make the nitrogen volume section of the reservoir adjustable and you can adjust the nitrogen pressure externally, you can get even more shock homo and add external piping to the shock body like the high dollar bypass shocks and have more fine tuning. . :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:01 pm 
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shock homo= shock queer :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Are you aware you don't have to use nitrogen?
You can simply use air while your trying to find the sweet spot. Then once dialed in recharge with nitrogen.
:-)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:21 pm 
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lutrev wrote:
Shock Homo, to funny Hoser. Sorry if I sounded like a dick Turbo, was just hoping you would have pressured up instead of down. That excel program is pretty cool for plugging numbers in. The fella at fox should look at cowboys video before he says anything about these shocks on a pilot. :-)



I think the shock homo thing is a Stoneman TM I forget for sure.

I don't think the guy that made the comment was from FOX I think he was just a vendor selling Turbo the shocks?

I do know not all the people that I have talked to at FOX like the fox airs but this is years ago and they were trying to steer me into some of their newer improved products (buy another set of shocks) I ignore all their crapola I know for fact that these shocks work and work well, they are quality and reliable, the worlds top stadium lite builders and racers used them for a reason, if they didnt work or were not reliable they would never have used them.. Like everything else they have their idiosyncrasies (<-- spelling?) and are not for everybody.

Cowboy knows way more about these shocks than I do he has tested all kinds of different things I got mine where I was happy and pretty much stopped playing, I am sure someone could dial them in much better.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Stoneman wrote:
Are you aware you don't have to use nitrogen?
You can simply use air while your trying to find the sweet spot. Then once dialed in recharge with nitrogen.
:-)



Not sure I agree with this, where did you come up with that idea?

For one the air will probably contain moisture that's not good for the oil or shock internals.

The other problem I have with it is your adding oxygen to the same chamber your oil is in then compressing it to a high pressure is their a chance it could cause combustion? Poofkaboom big mess on the rear of Turbos Pilot as it blows the seals out?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Stoneman wrote:
Are you aware you don't have to use nitrogen?
You can simply use air while your trying to find the sweet spot. Then once dialed in recharge with nitrogen.
:-)


LOL I know but I am loosing my arse... litterally so there isn't as much to ho;d down the pilot as there used to be LOL
195 pounds and counting LOL

And you guys should know I am too damn stubborn to give up no matter the cost... As much as everyone has helped me I don't mind taking one for the team!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:59 pm 
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lutrev wrote:
http://www.foxracingshox.com/atv/sport/FLOAT_R

Not sure if these are the right ones, but the floats are air adjusted.


Those are a whole different shock.


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