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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:04 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
here are some pictures... I swapped out tires and i have a whole different beast lol
video to come


Attachments:
File comment: here is where mine didn't fit as well as yours did
stockshocktires 001.jpg
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File comment: I had hell getting this back in...
stockshocktires 002.jpg [39.84 KiB]
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File comment: see how this is bent?
stockshocktires 004.jpg [52.91 KiB]
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File comment: Hoser could the fox air shocks use the stock rezzie like you are doing? Is that where you got your rezzies???
stockshocktires 005.jpg
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File comment: the beastie tires hehe
stockshocktires 006.jpg [84.94 KiB]
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:55 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
more turbovision...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CcJC7CEQs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEZBjcM1i_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gugmdVHmeUg


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks for the link and info everyone. I was having issues loading. I got it now, oh boy. So is the data in the right of the work sheet for this shock or for the 14 inch shock. Can I just use this data with a cut off at 8.5 for rate of change. It look like the interpolation would be off based on max volume related to pressure and change the progression rate. Little help. I see I have a lot of work to do over christmas vacation. I will use my pilot data for some calculations. I like new toys.

Data
Max Oil Volume of shock 24.4 cu. In.
Max nitrogen vol @ Max Oil Vol 16.8 cu. In.
Max Total Volume 41.2 cu. In.
Stock Oil Vol 19.8 cu. In.
Stock nitrogen Vol 21.4 cu. In.
stock nitrogen pressure 200 PSI


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Man I like Turbo vision. Nice to see you getting a handle of simple adjustment and effects they have. Now imagine how to applies these diffs to diff riding conditions and cornor at what speed. This will improve your entrace speed and point of breaking. Just remember to break before cornor and roll into cornor and see where it starts to turn ( front tire traction) then how much throttle can be applied to bring it around ( change to oversteer) and power thu cornor. The more power you can applie sooner and maintain the quicker you will be. If you want to play a little more. When using the smaller tires in the rear If you can lower your front ride hieght ( decrease prelaod) and then one to two click increase on front compression. Remember to log your changes to put back if it gets worse or better and the diff using stock tire verses smaller tire. You will soon be able to graph this info.

Make a side note on traction material ( dirt type) and what helped where.

Example:
Stock rear shocks:
22" rear tire:

Flat ground with easy rollors. the one click shock setting has a turning advantage over 4 or 8 clicks on compressin damping in front at moderate turn in speed. So 1 to 4 is prefered in front were there is no square edge hits or woops. Heavy breaking on turn in increse one click( check traction loose on front under breaking into cornor).


Just think how much better it will be once you get those foxs dialed in. From the video you can see how the bottom out poundage will reduce kick. The stock shock is not hitting bottom and using the stroke more effectivly.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
These fox coilovers don't have a threaded preload like the works do! I am sure with nitro changes and oil changes I could??? It looks to me that they are using the stock springs froim the amount of spare parts iu have left from purchase from original owner I wonder if works can make a shock for the yoda kit? Anyone ever ask???


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: CT
Any pics of those fox coil overs? I have the fox on the rear of mine, they don't have threadable preload but it does have grooves in the shock body that allows me to remove the snap ring, slide the collar up or down then reinstall the snap ring to adjust the preload.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
King Kx wrote:
Any pics of those fox coil overs? I have the fox on the rear of mine, they don't have threadable preload but it does have grooves in the shock body that allows me to remove the snap ring, slide the collar up or down then reinstall the snap ring to adjust the preload.


Couldn't see a clip from here... but I do see the grooves...Is there a special tool to do this??? will I have to remove shock from pilot?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
King Kx wrote:
Any pics of those fox coil overs? I have the fox on the rear of mine, they don't have threadable preload but it does have grooves in the shock body that allows me to remove the snap ring, slide the collar up or down then reinstall the snap ring to adjust the preload.


Couldn't see a clip from here... but I do see the grooves...Is there a special tool to do this??? will I have to remove shock from pilot?



Shorten the spring and push down on that thingie the spring is pushing against then you should see a wire clip you can move up and down in the grooves to change the spring rate.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I see the clip, looks like it has holes for a snap ring tool... should I be able to move the spring with out tools like on stock rears???


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: CT
Turbotexas wrote:
I see the clip, looks like it has holes for a snap ring tool... should I be able to move the spring with out tools like on stock rears???


You may be able to just jack up the pilot by the frame to take any weight off the suspension. If the springs are then loose/rattle, then you will be able to remove the snap ring with snap ring pliers and adjust the preload to what you want. If the spring is too tight to remove the snap ring, you can use a ratcheting tie down strap, hook one end to the spring, the other to the a arm and compress the spring a bit to allow for removal of the snap ring.
From watching your videos I see that there is no sag in the front suspension. This will make for a poor steering. Ideally you want about a 1/3 of your suspension travel to be sag. (according to a supposed engineer at works) I took his advice and had them make me new shocks for the front of my briggs car (that wouldn't turn before hand) now it turns very good with not quite a 1/3 of its travel being sag.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:28 am
Posts: 708
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hey Turbo, I see you have a G-Force harness, what did you pay for it & is it a 6 point?

I just bought a 6 point for $90Aud & was thinking of drilling the two holes in front of the 350 seat right through so I could fix it there with bolts.

Will it affect the structural integrity of the 350 frame by drilling these two holes??

Like the vids Turbo.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
mozzy wrote:
Hey Turbo, I see you have a G-Force harness, what did you pay for it & is it a 6 point?

I just bought a 6 point for $90Aud & was thinking of drilling the two holes in front of the 350 seat right through so I could fix it there with bolts.

Will it affect the structural integrity of the 350 frame by drilling these two holes??

Like the vids Turbo.


Post some pictures where you want to drill, maybe start another thread..

You should wrap the harness around the frame tube you should be able to take apart your harness to do this, post pics of your harness too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:52 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I paid too much for the simpson belt! it is a five point and I wrapped it around the frame on the pilot...
on the ody I have an aftermarket seat frrom odysseysalvage.com and I built a spot to bolt the sub belt to the frame of the seat


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
I paid too much for the simpson belt! it is a five point and I wrapped it around the frame on the pilot...
on the ody I have an aftermarket seat frrom odysseysalvage.com and I built a spot to bolt the sub belt to the frame of the seat


Harness is never to go to the seat its to the frame only...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
I paid too much for the simpson belt! it is a five point and I wrapped it around the frame on the pilot...
on the ody I have an aftermarket seat frrom odysseysalvage.com and I built a spot to bolt the sub belt to the frame of the seat


Harness is never to go to the seat its to the frame only...


it is the submarine belt that I am refering to...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:28 am
Posts: 708
Location: Melbourne, Australia
hoser wrote:
mozzy wrote:
Hey Turbo, I see you have a G-Force harness, what did you pay for it & is it a 6 point?

I just bought a 6 point for $90Aud & was thinking of drilling the two holes in front of the 350 seat right through so I could fix it there with bolts.

Will it affect the structural integrity of the 350 frame by drilling these two holes??

Like the vids Turbo.


Post some pictures where you want to drill, maybe start another thread..

You should wrap the harness around the frame tube you should be able to take apart your harness to do this, post pics of your harness too.


Yep, will do Hoser.

Pics to come tomorrow, my time, when I get home.

Added pics.

http://pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopi ... 1&start=60


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
Rear FOX air shocks on my Pilot have 6-1/4 " of shaft showing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for the measurement Hoser


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Rear FOX air shocks on my Pilot have 6-1/4 " of shaft showing.


I think mine was 6.75 when I had the 150psi in it! If I had to do the adjusting on what I have learned so far I would have added more oil, and dropped the psi to 140... After seeing what 125 was like...

http://downsouthmotorsports.com/contact.html



These guys are all good in my book!!! I sent these back Monday, and they recieved them Yesterday! He called me and told me they were ready today! I asked him to send them second day air and was wanting to give him a credit card number, but he wouldn't let me do it???
Now I will admit I didn't give him enough info on what these were going on, I admited to him I only gave him info from someone else and I appreciated him revalving these, but I felt obligated to pay for the shipping back home especially since I asked to have it second day aired!!! It cost me 60.00 extra the first time I had them sent!
So after seeing Mudbogger'S ordeal with his shocks that where TOTALLY WRONG and not HIS mistake I thought I would let every one know the difference... My shocks were 213.00 each or 426.00 for the pair, and I paid 60.00 extra for the second day air... Compared to the other prices I have seen I think Downsouth Motorsports is still very competitive, and I of all people am very appreciative of the GREAT SERVICE!!! Sonny is the guy I dealt with!
I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO MY NEXT PURCHASE


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
King Kx wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
I see the clip, looks like it has holes for a snap ring tool... should I be able to move the spring with out tools like on stock rears???



From watching your videos I see that there is no sag in the front suspension. This will make for a poor steering. Ideally you want about a 1/3 of your suspension travel to be sag. (according to a supposed engineer at works) I took his advice and had them make me new shocks for the front of my briggs car (that wouldn't turn before hand) now it turns very good with not quite a 1/3 of its travel being sag.


OK from what I remember from my works shocks, and it has been over a year since I messed with the adjustments I screwed the threaded preload down to put more pressure on the spring but I don't remember what that did to my preload... I just got back from a short trip and tomorrow I am going to try to adjust these springs down... Mark was right the pilot does sit up high and when I sit on the BUMPER it does go down to about where it should be with the sag set right...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Hey Turbo I will see if I can shed some lite on preload for you.

The static preload on a sping is generaly Zero. This means the sping is at it's extended lenght with no load on it. Static is the base line ( as it is right of the box laying on the bench ect.) When the spring or springs are assembled on the shock the spanners or preload adjustes ( if ring and clip) are tightened down till the touch the sping or springs. This is zero preload or static preload ( shock at rest).

Now if one knows his or her spring rates ( 100 pound rate for example) this means that for every inch of sping compression it add 100 pounds of force on a linier spring. Example: if the sping is compressed 2", 2 x 100 = 200 pounds. One can calculate the spring rate of preload. This can be done by first measureing the total spring free lenght ( the spring at rest) lets say its 12".

Now we know we have a 12" at 100 pound rate. Lets alos assume the lever ratio of the suspenion is 1 to 1. This means the shock shaft travle will move the same distance as teh wheel in vertical travle.

I will touch on cornor weightor unsprung and spung weight and the effect on motion ratio.

Since you have no data on wheel rates and unsprung weights Lets just bolt up the shock and see how much droop( how far the shock is compressed under the weight of the car and person in it) you have. Then you measure the spring lenght. Let use an example of 10" on the sping lenght with the weight on the car. This means you now have 200 lbs of static load ( force at rest) on the shock at what shaft travle.

Since you have measured the total shaft travle, Right. Lets say the shock in use has 6" of total shaft travle. When measuring shaft travle one included the bump stop on the shaft. Belive me when I saythe bump stop will compress when bottoming. This bump stop is made of a material that compressos at agiven rate to smooth out the bottom poundage. I do wonder how the air shock preformes this since there is no visable bump stop.

Ok recap:
The spring rate is 100 lbs linier
The total shaft travle 6"
Sping free lenght 12"
Lever ratio 1 to 1
Static preload " 0 " the spring is at rest 12" free lenght with no load on it

Sag: the amount the suspenion is compressed at rest withthe weight of the car and driver
New spring lenght 10", 12-10= 2" x 100=200 lbs of preload at sag
New shaft travle 6", 6-2=4 or 33% sag

How does data related to the effect on suspenion, the set of pants feel and Turbo vision.

Well lets see.
First of all we know the sag base is 33% so were good here for basle line setting.
The bottom out poundage of the shockk is ?
The spring is 100 lb rate and the shaft travle is 6" so that's 100 x 6 = 600 lbs
Preload poundage is at 200 lbs with a static preload of 0 so the shock at sag will bottom with an aditional 400 lbs of force.

Know we have a few facts and we also know bottom out poundage will not change due to linier rate of the spring it's fixed 600 lbs at 6" is 600 lbs at 6". So what the preload going to do if we change it. Preload does a couple of things here. It changes the sag # and changes the avalible shaft travle at bump( compression of the shock) it also changes the avalible shaft travle in droop ( spung weight on the shock) as it travles over uneven bumps.

I will touch base on more of the effect later in the discussion and far as spsring poundage verse sag relation ship.

If we adjust the sag by adding static preload to the shock via the spanners or clip position on the shock what have we done to the numbers. The golden rule not always just golden One should not have to change the preload more than .5 to 1 inch. If so a spring rate change is required.

By adding 1" of preload the staic load on the shock at rest is now 100 lbs instead of zero and you have 100lbs of static preload. The shaft travle is at 6" and the spring is know at 100 lbs fully extended. This means that with sprung weight the shaft should be 5" instead of 4" at and change your sag to around 20%. Why would we does this and what effect on handling it may have.

We know the shock will bottom out at 600lbs or will it. Keeping with the 100 per inch rate and we now have 5" of shaft travle 5 x 100=500. We now have 500 pounds to bottom than the previous 400 at 4" of shaft travle at zero static preload. We alos have 100 additional pounds and one less inch of droop control over uneven surfaces. What effeect will this have (Later).

Lets say we are bottoming out to soon or excessivly at a gaiven track which is pretty flat with kickers and roll on and accel jumps and there is no compression or rebound on your shock. Do we slowdown or make an adjustment. If we slow down we are letting the shock control our motion, I say make a change. We can add preload ( static preload to the shock) and see if it has an effect on the harsh landing and take off,s, Yes I did say take off's. The shock can also bottom out on square edges hit or jump faces. Do we want additional poundage on the on a face of a jump. Depends on the rear shock settings. Keep in mind compression and rebound fixed. What happens when the front prload poundage is increased is it also effect rebound since the you have added 100 lbs static load that wille effect the rate the fluid passes thu the valveing. This changes the transfer rate to the rear and could cause it to bottom out to soon on the ramp by reducing the shaft travle of the rear shock to soon.

Back to prleoad poundage. If you sag is to low of number ( to much shaft travle) the front will get light and twitchy and effect the way it cornors. Remember you have added prload poundage which effects body role and weight transfer effecting balance. If you car has bump ( toe change) steer built in the tire camber is altered and traction force is effected. This is one reason to have an asjustable front end so one can dial in camber as needed.

What I'm trying to get at here is the preload increse is not always the anaswer. The preload should just be used to fine tune the ride height only and not compasate for any thing else. You can but it's a band aid to a bigger problem. Some times the best thnig to do is change the spring rate or rates or adjust the valving.

Back the spring rate. If the handing is well and corning is well at 33% and the bottoming out is an issue on a non adjustable shock ( compression and rebound) than increase you spring rate. How ?

On a single linier spring ( rate per inch the same) incresing the rate will change the ride height its a given. Know if we were to purchase a dual rate spring set up what happens. We use two linier springs two different rates. We know can calculate the rate needed and which cross over point is required to achieve a desired sag and increase in bottom out poundage.

Numbers:
33% sag 200 lbs at zero static load
500 lb bottom out poundage at 4" shaft travle, increase of 100 pounds to cure based on the 100 lbs preload adjustment.

What this will do will leave body role and decamber alone and provede the ride you liked before with little change in compresion and rebound valving.



I do so number input on later.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
The more I read this the more I see what you are refering to... It tok me several trys when I first got my fancy shocks up front on the ody, and then I still had to go back and change the rear shocks also to find the ride I liked while in the rough desert conditions I was riding most!
I have been riding the snot out of the Pilt the last two days at an off road park in Texas... The owner built some jumps just for me! Nothing sending me up high, just long! I have also been experimenting with different tire combo's an Honestly think My 25" tires I had on were the cause of a lot of the rear bounce I was getting! I looked at the videos with the smaller tires and the bounce was still there just not as drastic!
I didn't mess with the shocks as I think it will require me removing them and I don't have the patience for that right now, I think I will wait till I get the new Fox shocks back first...
I am buying myself a tubing bender for Christmas!!!
Video is being loaded on youtube...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
this wasn't as fun as it looked LOL I could smell the belt burning when the water dried up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEJI6K95D7g


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
This was fun!!!! Did this again his morning but I changed tire to some bear claws and only did a few laps... I didn't like them one bit!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Yaxof_fag


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Today I went and started to replace my tires. I ran some mud type bear claws from Kenda that have been in a shed for a few years. These are good tires, still hold air after sitting on polaris rims 4 years! I ran about 20 minutes yesterday at the track.
I am putting my old holeshots on the back and am using the dirt hooks up front for now. I am looking for a flatter profile tire for the fronts but have some other priorities first LOL plus I have a lot of tires laying around to use up LOL

I fiddled with the front shocks and found that the springs were loose when The pilot was up on jackstands... I will finish the front tire swap and then try to muscle my way into dropping the spring down a few notches...


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