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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I broke down and bought a cheap harbor freight bender and started making some a-arms for the pilot! Just winging it for now, then will take cutsheet notes on the second set! I am using oem ball joints and the same piece that bolts to the frame on the lowers, then I will use hiems at the top to tune!
I'm thinking I should have done hiems on all 4 to save the notching and cutting


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Location: New Mexico
Looks great so far David, can I ask which bender you bought? I was just there this morning looking at benders, and couldn't make up my mind what I wanted.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:45 pm 
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rarerat wrote:
Looks great so far David, can I ask which bender you bought? I was just there this morning looking at benders, and couldn't make up my mind what I wanted.

The little 12 ton one!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I never liked this method chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts used to tie in his shocks???


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
How bout a full plate there and a mounting bracket on that as the shock mount?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Nice! :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
davidafco wrote:
How bout a full plate there and a mounting bracket on that as the shock mount?

That's the plan! I will use the fox shocks I have, build the bottom mount like oem and go from there!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Cant wait to see it come together. I will be following this.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:38 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Nice start Turbo. Slap on some yellow paint and call them Turboized plus arms. You know the Yellow paint is going to stick with you even if the PPE goes away. Happy hacking.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:42 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
adnoh wrote:
Nice start Turbo. Slap on some yellow paint and call them Turboized plus arms. You know the Yellow paint is going to stick with you even if the PPE goes away. Happy hacking.

I might need your help with setting up the shocks... kinda like when you relocated the stock arms I tried...
Right now I see the tie rod ends being my limiting factor in the droop... not sure about bump yet???


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:38 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
With your bump kit it should not be an issue. As you change the location of the ball joint pivots( forwads to back wards) you can either lenghten or shorten the distances between tie rod joint centers on the rods and correct. As you design the shock lower pivot keep in mind the distance from ball joint center to lower shock pivot center. This will have the greatest effect on spring rate. If you can memick the shock angle and ball joint to lower eye center on the arm than the shocks rate and valveing will be real close. The only varible would be balance front to rear. If your ride sag is higher the front will be lighter and if the ride sage is lower the front will be heavier. As you move the the arms forward it also effect balance front to rear. So if you move forward than think about the other location and there change will effect the shocks settings. An crud example of this would be move arm forward( make car lighter) offset with an adjustment to lighten up the rate ( increase angle or move lower shock pivot in) if not than the spring bias fornt to rear is off and it will change the way the car rolls into a cornor and effcts the steering rate( traction force on front tires). If it off a little then you can add camber and reduce caster to dial it back in and reduce you rear ride sag to load the front. Lot of dicessions to consider. Move one it effets lotof others. Then if you change the rear to a longer and wider set up start over. Try to set up with the goal in mind. I run two different set up on the front. One for trails and one for wide open racing. I have two positions on the front arms one for each. Then I set up the springs,clickers,toe,caster and camber for each. One turns better and one handlles better at speed. Dunes or trails trxs or pilot I can change for the ride. I'm kinda wierd that way. Not to mention factoring in the head for each. Low Cr and High CR. If your going do a dual set up you will need high speed adjuster or a dual compression to make it work. You could get by with dual in the front but the high speed circuit is a must


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:55 am 
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Turbo, Let me touch a bit more on the high speed adjuster and determinig the lower shock eye setting. The high speed adjuster or high speed compressino is a bypass bleed which will not effect low speed compression setting. This is an indapendant adjustment an only comes into play at high shaft velocitys. Do not confuse high speed compression with the speed at which your going it has simple to do with the speed of the shock shaft. Got it, shaft speed not car speed. If you have low speed only or no compression adjustment your only adjust in the spring rate and the preset valving. So with out an external adjuster one compastes with a stiffer rate of more preload whcih effect handling and feel. If you experence bottoming or harsh feed back then one tends to stiffen up the rate with either a spring change,tansitin positin cchange or add pre load. Alll of this changes the handdling by effting balance and load transfer to the wheel were the tractin is. The next varible is low speed adjusters. This help dial in the weight transfer and controls body roll and few other things. Here the important thing( pay attention here) If you change low speed compression only, it will stiffens for high speed shaft velocity. The side effect is it also effects low shaft speed as well which changes the roll stiffness and low speed feel which effects tire traction. The whell looses contact with the ground at small bumps and skippes over the bump not follwoing the bump. It help to a certain point on sharpedge and jump faces but does more overall damage the good. This is were you use the low speed for contol at slow shaft speeds and dial in bottoming and high shaft speed with rate and valving UNLESS you have high speed adjusters. You can run the soft low speed at the correct ride height for rollcontrol and good handling then stiffen upth ehigh speed for harsh hits and jump faces. This will allow you to dive in harder and hit the face quicker and assorb the those cross ruts with out runing a hars stiff rate and valving.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:12 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
As you drive across ruts ectat a lower viechle speed the shaft speed will remain high as it impacts the sharp edge or square edge bump. With out this adjuster the shock willbottom sooner and feel harsher as the low shaft speed adjuster allows the shaft to incease in speed with valve damping and the spring rate take over relating in feed back to the wheel and loose of tire traction and you slow down. Not if lets say a additinal set of valves were in there to compasate for this high shaft speed than the valving will asorb more of the energy with out feed back or bottoming at the lower spring rate and allow the car to maintain control across the square edge bump at a higher vehicle speed stillmaintainig ride controll and handling. I like to say set the high speed to were it hurts the add 2 to 3 clicks and then butter. How this plays into the two shock eye setting are pretty easy now that one knows the effects. As I increasee the wheel load via moving the lower shock eye in ( future from ball joint) the shock get softer due to the wheel rate. Now I have #1 more travle, #2 softer rate thu stroke,#3 more ground clearence for high speed running,#4 better handling at the increased speeds,#5 more more balance to rear ( which make front lighter). There more but I'llstop there and mentiion some of the adjsutment for the change. #1 change transiton spacer infront shock to get onmain spring sooner. #2 lower ride sag %,#3 increase low speed compreesion ( increased lever ratio) and then increase high speed doule the low speed adjustment. The reason for double if the shaft travle at the new lever ratio. The wheel rate is greater related to shaft travle ininches. This will change the over all rate and valving. As an example if the shaft moved at a 1.8 to 1 than changed to a 2 to 1 than shaft does more work for every inch of wheel travle thus an even higher shaft speed. And a certain shaft velocity is what I want to maintain.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:19 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
The fox coilovers I have only have a compression adjuster... And a preload clip I can move...
I am hoping these will work, as I don't want to spend much money...
They worked flawllessly on the stock a-arms...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:25 am 
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Turbotexas wrote:
I never liked this method chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts used to tie in his shocks???


What was the reason for making the shock mount like that, he was trying to put the shock precisely in that location so that's what it took? Drew it all up in cad so was stuck to that location type thing..


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:37 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I seriously doubt chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts drew anything in cad! Look at the lt kit massody had on his pilot and I bet chucklenuts copied it!

hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
I never liked this method chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts used to tie in his shocks???


What was the reason for making the shock mount like that, he was trying to put the shock precisely in that location so that's what it took? Drew it all up in cad so was stuck to that location type thing..


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:40 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Now for the statement of the spring bias front to rear. Since I alteredteh front and dialied in the front shock to get it close to what it was it still cause an effect on the rear and the relation of the spring bias and valving front to back.
In my case I will have to make a rear transfer adjustment. I need more weight on the front. So I need to change the rear ride height ( sag%), low and high speed adjusters, tender spring and or cross over point or a combantion of all depending on where and what I'm chasing and the terrane. Basicly the bias now is to the rear and a little needs to be moved forward if not the car will pitch thu the woops and the rear will squate during accerlation. To correct I can apply more low speed compression which will correct the accerlation squate and roll I also can change the tender spring and the transition position. If I have more weight in the rear and even more if it sqates undeer accerlation the shaft speed will increase. Now hit a square edge and if it does not trantion sooner to main it will buck or kick unless the high speed valving is increased to help dampen the shafts velocity, if you have a high speed compresion adjuster. If not you must rely on the spring rate and low speed if available if no low speed than the transion to the stiffer rate must accur sooner. This will provide a harsher ride at low vehicle speeds with out the adjsuter and tender spring change.This bring another issue into paly with is rebound. If a a ratical spring rate change is done the rebound valing most likly will be off. So do yo want to car to tell yo how fast it can travle over an obstical or do you want to have a say in the matter with out up settng the handling and feel.This coming froma back yard hacker with NO professinal experencie,so take it for what it's worth. Any way Turbo keep some of this in mind when choosing the location of the pivot and the shock being used and what the setting were and what it was on. I would defenty recomend make the front uppers fully adjustableand keep good notes.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:50 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Turbo as far as the shock location on the PPE arms I would bet it was to accomadate the longer shock. To avoid what I mentioned in my post about wheel rate vs shaft travle ratio. The better the rate the eiser to control. I just wanted to touch base on the fact your using the fox shock and the efffects on the location of the lower shock pivot and some of the effets related to positions so you do not run into a mjaor sping valve change which is the same cost of new shocks and if you go LT in the rear and do it again. Then you have bought a set of good adjustable shocks. I would also look at the eye to eye and shaft travle lenght and compare them to other bikes to see if you can a bolt on set of factory later and just change springs if need be. A lot cheaper set up than full custom. Yahama has one of the best take off set around. They are high /low speed and rebound adjustable. Heck ask Factory 45 if he has a spare set of shock layiing around he races you know. Who better to ask.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:53 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
So without buying a new set of adjustable shocks, what should I expect if I mimic the stock a-arms mounting point? As I only stretch the outer ball joint...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
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Location: near NJ rider
Is the "balljoint" weldable material?
Will it cook the grease out or is it greasable?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
bullnerd wrote:
Is the "balljoint" weldable material?
Will it cook the grease out or is it greasable?

???
If your want to go thru the trouble of typing something why don't you just say it instead of implying it...

Again you show your lack of knowledge of the Pilot... Did you not read this thread??? I am using the oem ball joints... these were welded in the first place... So I am sure the metal hasn't changed composition in 20 plus years??? Or did you read that it does on the internet???
IF I welded this continuasly I am quite sure the grease would burn and the rubber would melt... DOH??? So I am welding this one little 3/8" at a time... then I let it cool for an hour and then do the next bit... And I was able to do this with out reading it on minnie ( as in mouse) buggy!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Location: CT
Wrapp the joint in a wet rag before and while you weld it or the heat will cook the grease out of it. The wet rag will absorb the heat and minimize the cooking of the grease. Doing it at 3/8" at a clip will not promote good penetration (lack of heat).

Whats up with the flaming? The guy stated a perfectly good question. Do you know what kind of steel the stock ball joints are made from? Different types of metals require different methods/types of welding. You wouldn't want to mig a cast iron ball joint.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Location: Chicago
King Kx wrote:
Wrapp the joint in a wet rag before and while you weld it or the heat will cook the grease out of it. The wet rag will absorb the heat and minimize the cooking of the grease. Doing it at 3/8" at a clip will not promote good penetration (lack of heat).

Whats up with the flaming? The guy stated a perfectly good question. Do you know what kind of steel the stock ball joints are made from? Different types of metals require different methods/types of welding. You wouldn't want to mig a cast iron ball joint.


I assumed their is a history/tension from another site, been their done that haha.

I thought it was a good question it brings out discussion and is great for others regardless if Turbo knows what he is doing or not. .


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:21 pm 
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Location: near NJ rider
I wasn't implying anything.I did read the thread.I did see you said stock balljoint.For some reason I thought they screwed in.My mistake.It looks like you were trying to weld to the outside of a tierod end.If its forged or cast it may not be too easy.

Honda probably welded it before putting the internals in.I could not see the other side so did not know if it had a zerk fitting.

I'm glad you were able to do it without reading it on MBN,please stop bringing it up.I have had engineering,welding,machining schooling, long before the internet but I don't bring it up in every post.

I guarantee I am one of the nicest,willing to help,easiest to get along with people you will ever meet.Ask NJ rider,Mickey,Pnut,Pdick,Cafe..I rode with them.


Let it go,I was just trying to help.I will stay out of your way from now on.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
No Hoser it's not a Minnie buggy thing... More of a condensending attitute and the sence that he thinks he smarter than me... Like many on minnie buggy do! I have had the yahoo's call me stupid on the other forums and I won't tolorate even the snide implications like this...
My Daddy didn't buy me a collage education so I have to learn things the hard way... BY DOING IT, not reading about it... If you have some knowledge on the subject I appreciate the feedback. If not please keep your snide comments to yourself...
KingKx I was using the wet towel method you mentioned thank you... I have a grease needle to regrease things when I am done... And I should have said 3/4" at a time... about enough to where I had to stop and move the piece to get to another angle...


bullnerd wrote:
I have had engineering,welding,machining schooling, long before the internet but I don't bring it up in every post.


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