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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
I moved this from another post to clean it up and put the bla bla bla here.


I'll do my best to explain not being an engineer I can not be very accurate. What I can do is explain how I come up with the notations.

First I will look at the coil/ coil assebly. The manual showes different resistance values which tells me the primary and secondary turn ratios are different from the 90. Also the values for the assembly it's self. This can also be conformed since the parts list does still show both 89 and 90 are a different part number. Therers some more related info for this and will share later when time allowes.

Second the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition): I have both an 89 and a 90 so finding differncent items is pretty easy. The CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) is another matter as it looks the same. The 89 will work on a 90 and 90 on an 89 and the parts fisch show one for both years. However theres a difference. On an 89 you can hook up a harley tack which usally is a two pulse per revolution with out a tach adapter. On the 90 the tach will not work or read the single pulse single even with a tach adapter. I also investaged this with an newer from honda 90 pre and post rev delete. SO (I) conclude two things Number one the 89 had a two pulse per revolutionup untill a certain rpm and number two the out put sine wave is different to which the tach can not read.

Now this is a back yard hacker set up and do not know if true or not however I run it.

I use and 89 set up for the values of the ignition system (CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition),coil,plug wire and an after amrket cap) and run a air to fuel ratio that works for that set up as well as Engine pramitiers around this primese. Agian this is just a hacker thing and can not prove other than with one system(89) it works and whenI change out to the (90) the Engine primatiers do not work. So what I did was set out to find out why. I was told weather true or not form a dealer I trust as he was an Engine guy and his guys in the shop back in the day that the 89 not only had a different head color but the head itself was differnet as well as the cylinder. Some one with greater knowledge then me can confrim that one however as of now I believe it to be true. With difference in sine wave the sparks duration and peak value will vary depending upon the resistave values( assuption based off of ignition theroy).

This leads to the statement of the 89 in stock trim being faster or quicker. From a seat of teh pants and at teh time having froiends with each which consisted of 4 89's and thre 90. no matter who rode what the 89's always was a touch quicker. I can contribute this to only the difference in component and the change from 89 to 90.

I look at the weight, not a big deal. Then I look at the ignition componuts,different. Them the exhaust system, different with the 90 being more restricitive. The intake system, reeds and reed valve and carb setting. You have got to ask your self why not only change the reeds and valve but the carb and its settings. I looked at this as an EPA thing due to the catch bottle leaner jetting and the exhaust restrictions. If you assume for a minute all of that and then factor in the cylinder and head rework it makes since to me. We can explore the two pulse thing for a minute. If its is true a two pulse for 89 and one pulse for a 90 then the 89 is firing at BDC. NOw ask yourself WHY. What effect on cylinder scavaging would this have and if true what cylinder change would be needed for a single pulse to achieve the same result for and EPA certifacation. Again I can not stress enough these are only my conclusions and can not support these with paper work. Only Honda knows and confirm or denia these.

SO I may be all wet and take this with a grain of salt and all one reads on the net is not always true.

As far as the two seater I believe it to be true the fact it had a 500 is new to me. I say A+++ for Lee.

This may spark( no pun intended) great debate however I bet some one will start reading and learn a thing or two about igniton systems and there efect on the cylinder combustion strenght as well as the power strokes duration. Not to mention the effect on the primary CR effectiveness. As I did mentin the intake system as part of the hypothises. The reeds and tip area ratio play a part in this. How you might ask, just like the top end the time the port (valve) is open and closes as well as area has an effect on the compression ratio. Couple this with the angles of the boost and transfers will have an effect on scavageing according to time.

Time for a what if. What if during scavaging the intake charge was clearing the top end the ignition fired and the flame kernal lite off some the clearing change or burn off some of the unspent fuel air mix from the squish. UMM, Just a thought in the process most likly has no merit.

Well that's the best I can doas an explanation. All feel free to jump in or on as an discusision. that's what this board is about.

Adnoh.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
This is also what I posted in the other post.


I forgot to add the most important item. At the canopy plug where the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) plugs in the (H E O) for 89 is black letters and 90 is red letters. I have more on this subject and will share later as I can. mean while all you guys go look at your bike. if you have an red on our 89 most likly it has the updated CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition). AHH could this be why it only list one for the pilot, an update. Wonder if the changed the capisator discharge timeing and quantiy for cleaner burning at high rpm, Ummmm.

Darn EPA.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
I thought I would move this over here as not to clutter up the other post and post additional information. I went out to teh garage yesterday and did some modding/fixing and testing. What I did was take some video and pic to share on this subject to help show th edifference between the 89 and 90 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition). Honda only list one CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) for the pilot so I would bet as stated above there was an update to which both use as a replacment.

What I did was shoot some video using both an 89 and 90 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) moded and unmoded. When I say moded that referes to as REV delete, it will allow the Engine to rev above the preset rpm limit in the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition). I also went ahead and repaired a faulty 90 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) that had been modded and failed. I also went ahead and modded a 89 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) as a check to see if it altered the results.

For this I used my 89 which has stock coil assembly moded plug boot (resistance)and theh Vapor computor I use for data loggiing in hours, rpm, ride time, distance and tempatures. The vapor has settings that can be changed to fit many applications. In this expermint I used the rpm function and the PPR which stands for Pulses Per Revolation. The Vapor showes in the video that there is a difference in the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) output. The output is different to which the vapor will show a difference in the way the rpm is displayed on the bar graph and nurmical reading.

First I will look at teh visable difference holding both in my hand and the only difference I can see is the the HEO letteres on the canopy plug and the MFG imprint on the case in relation to the plugs oriantion. I feel the plug HEO color is the difference between 89 and 90 and the case just simply which way they installed the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) into it's case.

The first pick will be of the HEO plug color


Attachments:
File comment: 89-black
90-red

89 black,90 red letters.JPG
89 black,90 red letters.JPG [ 16.97 KiB | Viewed 595 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22102
Location: Chicago
Thought the bump on the outside of the flywheel triggered the coil to fire wouldn't the flywheel need 2 bumps to make it fire 2 times per revolution or is the second fire estimated in the computer off the first trigger?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Now I will show some video of the two using the vapor and the two different setting for PPR The 89 uses a setting of (2) PPR and the 90 uses (1) PPR. the result are pretty clear as far as the way the Vapor read or interprets and displays rpm. The pick up lead of the vapor is wrapped around the plug wire so the way I interput it is it only displays what it sees. If it sees or detects for a better word a single pulse than it will display the value at that pulse. The pulse I refer to is the voltage being sent to the plug through the plug wire from the coil. I will touch more on that later. Since the vapor tach lead is wraped around the plug wire it acts as a coil and sencsos current flow and sends it to the vapor. The only way it can detect a pulse or voltage on the plug wire if there is one present and current is flowing to the plug which has to jump the gap to ground so the curent will flow.

This is one reason to which I base my conclusion upon and the other will done later using a different tach that only read a 2 PPR single.

Time for some video.


Attachments:

89 CDI 2 ppr.wmv [ 3.23 MiB | Viewed 593 times ]

89 CDI 1 PPR, part 1.wmv [ 3.14 MiB | Viewed 593 times ]

89 CDI 1 PPR, part 2.wmv [ 3.03 MiB | Viewed 593 times ]

90 CDI 1 PPR, part 1.wmv [ 3.16 MiB | Viewed 593 times ]

90 CDI 1 PPR, part 2.wmv [ 3.26 MiB | Viewed 593 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Yes "H" your correct on the trigger for the coil to fire or interrupt the primary voltage to which the DC CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) then controls. The CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition), in this case the DC CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) output single is what is in question and what may be the diffeence in output. I would say that the two pulse rate I refer to is so close together regulated by the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) or the way the charged capisitior release there energy is the difference. I would say the 90 it simply a single pulse longer duration with increased capisitor discharge verses the two pulse shorter capisitor release of the 89. No engineer or electronic pro so it's just a guess and want to show theres a difference between the two CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition)'s. I also wanted to cover the ignition circuit it's self. I was also going to cover the advantages of a DC CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) in case of the pilot over the standard CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition). This also may be just the sine wave on the out put that is detected by the vapor and the harley tachs. This take equipment and knowledge I do not pocess.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
While I went and shot some video using the harley tach. I also found a problem in my one of my theroys. The issue would be why does the factory Honda tach wotk for both or do they. I need a little help her as I have only sean them on 89's. So ones with 90's and Factory Tach please let me know. Is there a link to the drawing stating 89/90 wiring diagram. What a probie moment! Any way I know there is a diff or the vapor settings and harley tach would work for both.

Heres the video on the harley tach and the 89 and 90 CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition).


Attachments:

89 CDI Harley tach.wmv [ 2.64 MiB | Viewed 574 times ]

90 CDI harley tach.wmv [ 1.9 MiB | Viewed 574 times ]
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