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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
got some more springs set and measured up today.


Attachments:
New Springs Sorted 1-40.JPG
New Springs Sorted 1-40.JPG [ 74.32 KiB | Viewed 469 times ]
New Springs 1-40.JPG
New Springs 1-40.JPG [ 73.49 KiB | Viewed 469 times ]
New springs 1- 40.pdf [189.96 KiB]
Downloaded 22 times
New springs Sorted 1-40.pdf [189.42 KiB]
Downloaded 26 times
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 352
Location: Indiana
Any updates? How's the rebuild going, no snags I hope.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:34 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Going well, I went out of town so nothing got done. I also was waiting for the mfg to get back with me on a couple of issues.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
I was working on the fiber plates and taking some numbers. The purpose was to find the best fiber for the install to work with my springs. We have some stock numbers but no numbers on the available fiber plates. As we know the thickness of each plate has an effect on poundage based on the installed height or load height.

I have two sets of Ferodo which I measured and I got a set of numbers from another board member for the EBC 1234.
What I would like is a measurement from others on what they have in stock including a stock Honda. I would bet the Honda grind tolerance is much better.

The importance of the grind tolerance will have an effect on the wear of the Fiber plates and plate warpage of the steel under static load. The book list warpage to .02 mm service limit.

Another important item to note about my springs are to match them to a set of fiber plates and steel plate so the torque clutch will operate within and above factory limits. I have built a spreadsheet to do this. Once I have more info on fiber and steel I will start matting them together. The use of old steel plates with in limits and springs, new and old as well as fiber plates can be entered and the spreadsheet will give us the numbers.

My goal is to match up parts so all can have a clutch packs for the pilot for years to come. I have good news to share in the future as I go. I thank every one that has posted and can post additional information for me to use.

Here is a pic of the fiber info so far. keep in mind the numbers for stock vary with in the range listed in the book and do not of yet have numbers to match to the pic.

Edited pic, update numbers. found error in average


Attachments:
Fiber measured #s.JPG
Fiber measured #s.JPG [ 65.1 KiB | Viewed 418 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
What a PITA !

I can understand Honda not wanting to deal with parts after so many years since its not profitable but the least they could do is pass on all the tech info and specs to some after market supplier including the list of suppliers that Honda was using so they could continue to supply parts, I am surprised when Honda announced its new policy "Only stocking parts for 9 years" that someone inside Honda didnt start another company and take over parts for machines over 9 years old WTF Honda turn it over to someone like SUDCO or Parts Unlimited.

I hope were able to get this resolved, thanks for all your effort, once its sorted if you want to put together a kit that is all matched up or a 'matched set' let me know I will take at least one set, sooner or later I am sure I will use it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:37 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Yes "H" pain in the rear in deed. I'm not real happy with the grind on the fiber plates and hope to have a solution soon.

I also have a numbers pic to share. This will show some of the poundage with what I have ran. Now armed with some fiber numbers I can enter and compare and then maybe build a hole new pack set up. The cool thing would be the ability to change the poundage requirement for different applications and maintain some sort of slip as not to render the torque limiter useless. I will have to work on that one dynamically.

any way another pic.


Attachments:
Installed numbers with new springs.JPG
Installed numbers with new springs.JPG [ 38.74 KiB | Viewed 428 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
More progress done with the clutch pack. I ordered in some new Honda Fiber and Steel to build a pack using my spring.
What I did not like about the after market Fiber plates was the grind. So I found a new Honda brand fibers and like one of the two. The issue was the Fiber measured 2.4 mm in thickness which is pretty low looking at the pilot specs. This would reduce the packs over all thickness and effect the poundage at load or installed height of the spring. The second part to over come is the stock steel plate is no longer available. I do believe Mas posted a replacement number however the thickness would be the same as stock and still leave me with a pack thickness issue.

What to do:
The way I see it you either use the aftermarket Fiber and new Steel replacement and spring.
Or, you redesign the pack with new Honda Plates.

What I did:
First I found a fiber and as listed above the thickness is thinner. So I would need a steel that was thicker to maintain or increase spring load without over stressing the spring.

Quick notes: The pack thickness stock is made up of four steel plates at 1.39 mm each and three Fibers at 2.64 mm
each. This give us a stock pack thickness of 13.48 mm with a spring load of 155.8 lbs at a spring installed height of 20 mm.

The info above on stock parts was from board members, Thank you!

With the new parts I found the pack will be made up of four Steel plates at 1.58 mm and three Fiber plates at 2.4 mm (service limit 2.20 mm) for a new pack thickness of 13.52 mm. This will increase the pack thickness by .04 mm

Whats the advantage?
#1 Factory Honda parts with good grind specs.
#2 Available since they fit other machines in production and one that do not have there parts discontinued yet.
#3 Increased pack thickness will help with spring load using either new springs or older spring which have taken set.
#4 Adjusting pack thickness with new and old as well as after market parts with worn clutch outer plates as a new pressure plate can be had.

What to consider:
Why are we looking at this as there is very few failures. I feel the issue will come with time as the springs sag out allowing the clutch plate to wear past there service limits and damage the steel plates now that our machine are aging. The spring is under static load no matter what even if it sets in your garage. Granted the more the transmission is in use in use the more stress the spring will see and is subject to an heat load which could and will have an effect on the springs stress. As we add power and load to the transmission via high stall clutches and higher traction loads via tire choice and terrain. I would consider as you do your next top end, remove the clutch and inspect the parts to prevent failure or power loss that you may not be noticing due to operation of the belt converter (drive and driven) via loading. It's nice to have options.

I will post some pics of the plates less the part number for now as I need to do testing of the pack. I will also be using a set of my springs and a new Pressure plate for testing of the clutch. You part savoy guys can find these if you look and want to, I do not want to lead any one astray until I prove they work. The hardest part to find a a good replacement spring to use in your rebuild. Nitro did have success with using his old steel and new aftermarket Fiber and shimming his spring.


Attachments:
New Design.JPG
New Design.JPG [ 61.65 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
New Pressure Plate.JPG
New Pressure Plate.JPG [ 102.5 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
New Steel.JPG
New Steel.JPG [ 77.14 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
newSteel Thickness.JPG
newSteel Thickness.JPG [ 34.95 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics and pdf of work sheet


Attachments:
New Fiber.JPG
New Fiber.JPG [ 94.41 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
New Fiber Thickness 1.JPG
New Fiber Thickness 1.JPG [ 33.45 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
New Fiber Thickness 2.JPG
New Fiber Thickness 2.JPG [ 87.06 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
New Spring-Fiber-Steel Design.pdf [250.93 KiB]
Downloaded 26 times
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
Thanks for your work on this project it looks like your onto something.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Thank you "H". Well it's been a while since I posted on this project, so I thought I would get caught up and get the DCP up and running with the new clutch pack.

As you know I found some parts to replace the pilot ones and had some springs made. I put together a pack I think should work and time will tell. As you look over the pics you will notice the part numbers I used. Use at you own risk as I have not fully tested the parts. The pack is thicker than the stock pilot set up and leaves you with an spring installed height of 19.76 mm. with that in mind the cool thing is one can use the new fiber and combination of steel to achieve the correct height even if you drive and drive hubs have wear or you use new. You can go to partszilla and punch in the numbers and it list the bikes and lawn mower the parts fit. Now the spring is another matter. You can use you old spring with a combination of new and used parts to build it back close to stock or find you a new one based on my numbers.

I built a few work sheet to enter the combination of numbers to achieve the desired results. One will still need to be careful as you design the pack as you can cause spring issues. I mean that you can over stress the spring and be right back to where you were.


Well here is some pics to mole over.


Attachments:
part numbers.JPG
part numbers.JPG [ 106.74 KiB | Viewed 384 times ]
parts used.JPG
parts used.JPG [ 106.74 KiB | Viewed 384 times ]
File comment: soak for at least 20 min
fibers soaking in oil.JPG
fibers soaking in oil.JPG [ 152.86 KiB | Viewed 384 times ]
File comment: do not cut off corner as it may fall in oil that you gona put in your trans. hole only
cut hole in bag to drain back in new bottle.JPG
cut hole in bag to drain back in new bottle.JPG [ 91.36 KiB | Viewed 384 times ]
File comment: save bag to soak each steel before building pack
oil back in bottle.JPG
oil back in bottle.JPG [ 112.61 KiB | Viewed 384 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics

On a lighter note for laughs. as you read take note how many time the use the word Engine. Also note at the end they call in motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) oil. Its good to laugh some times.

I bet they meant to say used motorcycle oil.


Attachments:
File comment: each steel plate has a round edge and a sharp edge
New steel round edge.JPG
New steel round edge.JPG [ 82.7 KiB | Viewed 383 times ]
File comment: this sharp edge faces out or toward the cover as you build the pack
New steel sharp edge.JPG
New steel sharp edge.JPG [ 83.14 KiB | Viewed 383 times ]
new pack.JPG
new pack.JPG [ 105.84 KiB | Viewed 383 times ]
New clutch pack.JPG
New clutch pack.JPG [ 89.58 KiB | Viewed 383 times ]
File comment: please read the back of the bottle.
oil used 2.JPG
oil used 2.JPG [ 60.85 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
File comment: my choice of spring for clutch pack thickness
new springs used,.JPG
new springs used,.JPG [ 109.66 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
new spring on hub.JPG
new spring on hub.JPG [ 124.99 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
File comment: pic of work sheet for spring and tolerances for stress
springs used.JPG
springs used.JPG [ 45.31 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
new spring load height 1.JPG
new spring load height 1.JPG [ 117.5 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
File comment: use this number to pick spring from assortment based on set and solid load height.
new spring load height 2.JPG
new spring load height 2.JPG [ 121.54 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
File comment: based on work sheet they must be close
checking tolerence on #3 and #33.JPG
checking tolerence on #3 and #33.JPG [ 136 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
feller guage for #3 and #33.JPG
feller guage for #3 and #33.JPG [ 129.32 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
checking tolerence on #53 and #60.JPG
checking tolerence on #53 and #60.JPG [ 128.9 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
feller guage for #53 AND #60.JPG
feller guage for #53 AND #60.JPG [ 82.85 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
output  shft in trans.JPG
output shft in trans.JPG [ 100.39 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
clutch basket.JPG
clutch basket.JPG [ 119.29 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
Washer between basket and hub.JPG
Washer between basket and hub.JPG [ 118.85 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
clutch pack assembly installed.JPG
clutch pack assembly installed.JPG [ 109.78 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
washer installed.JPG
washer installed.JPG [ 111.34 KiB | Viewed 382 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
File comment: I used the old nut due to this pack will be removed for checking over this year. once all OK new nut will be installed
old nut.JPG
old nut.JPG [ 111.91 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
torque the nut.JPG
torque the nut.JPG [ 97.15 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
dimple nut into shaft groove.JPG
dimple nut into shaft groove.JPG [ 85.8 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
File comment: this will tell me if it slips. I want it to slip or a reduction in poundage will be required for the load.
pack slip markinging .JPG
pack slip markinging .JPG [ 98.25 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
home made filler tube.JPG
home made filler tube.JPG [ 101.04 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
oil and filler tube.JPG
oil and filler tube.JPG [ 92.17 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
old oil from trans.JPG
old oil from trans.JPG [ 84.29 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
speed run 238 feet.JPG
speed run 238 feet.JPG [ 144.13 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
view of speed run.JPG
view of speed run.JPG [ 94.01 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
File comment: I did a few warm up laps, once the Engine was cleaned out and up to temp this is what the pilot did in a short burst.
reading of speed run, 5 mhp rolling start.JPG
reading of speed run, 5 mhp rolling start.JPG [ 69.31 KiB | Viewed 381 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
more pics

On a lighter note for laughs. as you read take note how many time the use the word Engine. Also note at the end they call in motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) ((Internal Combustion Engine?)) oil. Its good to laugh some times.

I bet they meant to say used motorcycle oil.


don't allow stupidity to confuse you, motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) oil is the NAME they gave the oil to lubricate your Engine, don't take my word for it READ THE LABEL, READ THE MANUAL, READ THE OWNERS MANUAL, READ THE MSDS SHEETS, READ ANYTHING the MGF makes available to you ITS MADE VERY CLEAR don't tell me I am wrong because your too stupid to figure out the most simple of things, they are NOT trying to make a motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))/Engine connection by the name they used haha they make this VERY CLEAR in all their literature you don't even have to go any further than the bottle of oil you seen the word motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) oil on to be corrected haha, still not sure what kind of mental deficiencies it takes to make something so simple and clearly defined so confusing, I do know those handicapped by the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) Engine thing the jedi mind tricks should work real easy on these easy to confuse minds haha

Glad to see you found some free time to bring us up to date on this clutch repair and still have a sense of humor.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:08 pm 
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Posts: 531
Location: Carson City, NV
Looks great Adnoh. Have my fingers crossed that the testing comes out positive. :-)


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Thank "H" and Mas. Did some jetting for tomorrows ride. got it up to 47.8 in that 238 foot run. will be taking some temp reading thought the day.

Adnoh


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:42 am 
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Location: Monette Ar
how did all the temps work out?


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:01 pm 
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Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
The temp so far so good. There a learning curve to the temps. As we have to establish a base line.
On my pilot the higest temp taken at the clutch pack cover was 132 degrees and the highest reading at the cv out put shaft where the oil sets in the case was 110 degrees. EZ's pilot had about the same difference between the pack and case but at a lower temp. Yours had a higher temp in the reverse locations. your pack was cooler than your case
I used honda oil,ez used a syn and I do not know what you run. I will remove my pack and loo it over in a few days to see what I find. I may try EZ's oil to see if the lower temp is related or if it was just the way we ran the machines. I feel your was do to the 670 but that's just a guess as only future testing will tell. On our next ride I will stat taking notes and logging information across the board. One issue is the condition plate/spring numbers and oil for all machine in the test.
After looking over EZ's splines on his half shaft I would say his pack is darn good other than spring sag due to time but that's just a guess. I think EZ runs what "H" uses if I recall correctly and will verify with him. When we ran that morning my max speed was 61.8 at 8440 rpm so I know we ran it pretty hard.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
well I'm finally getting around to posting up some info on the clutch pack check I did recently. All in all good news to report.

I had about 8 hrs at time of check on the pack. The time on the pack was all dune ridding at LS. The oil was dirty which is a little disturbing however there was no wear on the fiber disc them selves. The oil was also darker in color then the previous change before the pack was installed. I mention this because EZ 71 has a post on Mobile 1 and the color or the oil at time of change. I have always used GN 4 so one has to wonder why or what has change to get the result I and others are getting. One thing to mention is the GN 4 bottles has changed from what I was using and had in stock. The nice thing is my Wife's pilot has the old bottle labeling in it. So I will pull that oil and see. Just wondering if they had changed additives leading me to believe this is causing the results were getting.

The only other thing to mention is the spring set. I had new springs made at a 25.4 set and the springs after pre set measured above this number. This changed the static load on the pack disc. The time the spring is under this load at a given stress level is what to me is important as I do not want the spring to further set past the 25.4 number at a given installed height. The metal and fiber plates as well as the hubs and there wear is what will effect the IH or installed
height. Since I have no measured change in the installed height which means no measurable wear of the plates and hubs the additional set of the springs will effect the static load on the pack. As far as time goes at the static lodd I will use 4 to 5 months. I will also mention that when the springs were pre set is was at a temp around 75 degrees (room temp). Since the pre set the springs have seen temp at and above 100 degree F at there installed height.

I will post a pic of the spring numbers and the additional set amount and the new free length as well it will show the static poundage upon the pack. Then you can look at the above pics to compare. I will also show a pic of the oil and the pack marking that show no signs of slippage of the pack assembly. I have to wonder though since the pack did not slip did I render it useless or did I not put the machine in a position for it to slip due to over torque.

I did take enough pics to do a removal and install pdf and will do so as work load allows. I did feel it was important to share an update on the pack configuration and the oil issue.


Attachments:
clutch pack hrs.JPG
clutch pack hrs.JPG [ 10.55 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
oil at 9 hrs pic 1.JPG
oil at 9 hrs pic 1.JPG [ 85.14 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
oil at 9 hrs  pic 2.JPG
oil at 9 hrs pic 2.JPG [ 86.69 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
pack alignment.JPG
pack alignment.JPG [ 57.2 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
new spring load.JPG
new spring load.JPG [ 34.06 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:24 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Anytime I have run down a long stretch of whoops WOT (Wide Open Throttle) then got out and felt the area of the trans where the clutch pack is it was warmer than the rest of the trans so I assume slipping in the clutches no other reason for heat to build up in that area?

If you went to the North entrance to the dunes and ran WOT (Wide Open Throttle) out to the dunes then turned around and went back to camp WOT (Wide Open Throttle) in the whoops again you should be able to feel the temp difference like I describe, be a good test your next trip back to the dunes, just do it on off hours and peak days so their is no traffic to worry about :-) Heck test all the Pilots in the group see if any differ.

Let the oil set for 3-4 weeks in a warm area, outside in the sun would be best, then drain it slow and see whats in the bottom of the bottle, I usually find some stuff like a dark gray powder if you smear it on your finger, never find any significant wear on the clutch parts or gears, maybe its a additive in the oil that breaks down from being sheared by the gears?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Posts: 531
Location: Carson City, NV
Adnoh I have been an AMSOIL dealer for a little over 20 years. I have been getting tech news that tells about other companies now using poorer additives in their oils than they used to save money because of the higher price for raw materials. One thing that I have noticed with AMSOIL in the last few years is that they have changed their labeling even though the product is the exact same thing. For example series 2000 2 stroke oil is now called dominator. I guess they think that dominator sounds better. Haha Hehe Some things they have changed to improve their products or to make it meet the requirements for other vehicles but I have always found them to be honest. If you ask them what grease to use in a CV they will tell you none of their products will work for that not lie and just try to sell a product. For my pilot trans I use AMSOIL dominator 15-50 motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) oil and I have noticed it still comes out very very clean in both mine and my brother in laws pilots. We are running magnetic drain plugs and only the first time we installed it we found some micro silt size particles on it. The other times they have stayed clean. I think then that your black oil is probably not caused by age of the seals because mine are all original to the pilot so it probably is a change in your oil. Please don't think that I am trying to sell you AMSOIL I am just pointing that this oil has not changed color coming out of the trans recently. I hope this helps everyone.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Thanks "H" and mass. Yes I do think I will try the amzoil to see. It would be nice to find an oil that works well and does make one think there is an issue. Mass, what would you recommend for a change interval since you have used it. Then I can rule out any deterioration of the fibers contaminating the oil. Make 450r has a dry sump and I use GN 4 in the trans. It always has looked dark when removed. I may even try it in there as well. The only diff would be the dynamic effect of the springs in the pack. Mass and "H" thank you for the suggestions and I will give them a shot.

Mass what does a couple of quarts retail for or do they sell in by the gallon.

"H", I have seen in some four stoke Engine that run a syn or full syn after they set a while (months)I find a sludge looking film in the bottom of the crank cases and pans. I have even noticed it in automobile transmissions. I do have the bottles I used to change the oil in the pilot trans so I will cut open and take a look.

Adnoh


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