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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Sorry in advance.

I think a good place to start is the dreaded sprung and un-sprung number. So when we put a scale under each front tire we get a number for the pilot depending on choices around 100 to 105 lbs. Its key to do a scale on each side at the same time if you have shocks installed it will mess up the number. If you do not use two scales place a block with the same thickness as the scale underneath one of the tires. This number will be your Corner weight. Now for the not so fun one the sprung weight, the weight the spring supports. I found the best way for me is to simply put on a spring with a given rate then measure the springs height with the weight of the machine resting upon it. Then it is real easy to find the sprung weight number. SO I put the 240 spring on the shock and set zero pre load lower the machine and let the weight compress the spring then measure the spring’s height. I take the free length and subtract the compressed length and use that number multiplied by the spring rate. In my case the 240 LB/in spring has a free length of 8 inches and the compressed length is 7.5 inches. I take 8 - 7.5=.5 and multiply it by the springs rate, 240 x .5 =120 lbs. Does not get easier than that, no matter you your set up you can get a good number to use for the SPRUNG weight calculation. With this number you can do a lot with including finding and entering the UN SPRUNG weight number into one of those Spring Rate Calculators. Keep in mind this gives me 120 lbs at ½” of shaft movement or 240 load lbs per inch of shaft travel. With the corner weight and sprung weight number we can get the UN sprung weight number since that one is the one they ask for. We have to get a motion ratio number to get a close UN SPRUNG weight number. We take spring load number of 120 (lbs) x .5 (motion ratio) = 60 lbs without shock angle figured in. You UN-sprung weight number will be 105-60=45 lbs for the UN-sprung entry. Now you do not have to weight all the parts, yes I have and got between 40 and 45 for stock. With that as one builds there front they can weight as they go and get a good number for them to use as it will make a difference or just do the spring method.
Back to math stuff, the calculator asks for four more numbers to give you confusing results. The D1 and D2 or A and B oh my what? It’s easy really just measure from your pivot point center on the lower arm where it bolts to the frame to the center of the shock bolt (D1 or A)and then pivot point center to center of the ball joint(D2 or B) just get close to the 1/8 inch. With the DCP its supper easy due to the set up I run an 8/16. Also with my set up I have two different shock locations and the lower ball joint can go +/- 1” so I can play with the set up. For this we will stick to the 8/16, just like it shows divide 8 by 16 =.5. Now you have the Motion ratio which is one of those numbers in the results it spits out. See, not very hard to do in order to get two of the result from the fancy spring rate calculator now for me that is about all I would look at.
Now the calculator wants to know the shocks angle from vertical. It shows the angle they want and it’s not the angle when you put your angle finder on it from the tire side it is the angle from the frame side. Again easy to get this without putting it on in a tight spot, place your angle finder on from the wheel side and measure than subtract that from 90 degree. In my case 13 degrees so 90-13= 77, this is the number to enter. What the spring rate calculator is not telling you is this is a multiplier for the shock angle and again easy to get in way of a phone calculator. We enter 13 into the calculator and hit the (COS) button with the calculator set to degrees if you use radians if a little more tough to get so make sure your calculator is set in degrees. I have discussed this before; COSD (cosine degrees) for 13 is .97437. This is used for the shock being at an angle and a reduction in the spring rate or efficiency. The 240 spring with a multiplier of .97437 would be a rate of 233.84. For a stock pilot this shock angle is 20% or a multiplier of .939692. Go back and look at the sprung weight calculation. We also have to apply this to the motion ratio of D1 /D2 or .5 x .97437 (shock angle) =.4871. This is also used to calculate the Static load on the spring, we take the sprung weight of 60/.4871 (Motion Ratio) =123.20 lbs of static load on the spring. You notice this is pretty darn close to what I came up with above.

Since the calculator asks for one more number to determine you spring rate which for me is bla. We can provide the sag number or how much we want the machines ride height to be. It wants to know the ride height of the shock from extended height in inches, UM. We can guess here of do some more basic stuff already kinda discussed. We have to know the setups numbers to come up with a good number or use what the book says for a stock pilot or what my number is in way of wheel suspension travel. This is where I vary from the calculator from above I measured .5 on a 240 spring. I take the Static load of 123.17 and divide it by the .5 measured above, 123.17/.5 = 246.34 lbs/in rate. We always round done to the next rate so it can be dialed in by pre load if need be. This is another reason why I like to use a known spring rate to get the numbers, I trust it.

Now what’s this wheel rate thing? The motion ratio is squared to get this number so we take motion ratio .4871 x.4871 = 0.23726641 to get motion ratio squared and then multiply this by the spring rate 246.34* 0.23726641=58.4482074394. So what does this mean for me and what I want to do with it? How does this compare to stock pilot with works shocks? The wheel rate for stock/works is 63.43. So the stock has a larger wheel rate number. The down side here is with stock travel of 6 inches compared to the DCP with 12 inches. This calculation is for the DCP 11/240 for 40 to 50% sag. The bump travel for stock will be @ 20% sag, 4.80”x 63.43 (304.47) and the DCP will be @50%, 6”x 58.45 (350.70). One thing to mention and keep in mind this wheel rate is not linier as it changes as the arms go into bump from full extended. The ratio has a vector to it which lets just leave out for now and look at the arms angle at ride height and the change as it goes into bump and the effects on the rake from full extended to full bump. This is why attitude is important for the pilot due to the frames static settings. Unless you got a mile to turn and want to slow down to hit a bump without the wheel being yanked out of you hands.
Let’s look at the results the calculator gives us and compare to the Hacker Math.
1: Sprung weight 60 lbs, Above Calculated 60
2: Motion Ratio .487, Above Calculated (D1/D2) *(shock angle) = .4871
3: Static Load 123.16 lbs, Above Calculated 123.20/.4871=123.17 lbs
4: Spring Rate Needed 246.31 lbs/in, Above Calculated 246.34 lbs/in
5: Wheel Rate 58.46, Above Calculated 58.448


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
See that was no so bad.
You may be asking about the dcp single Rate and works dual rate. The combined rate for the works is 169 lbs in then crosses over to a 360. So once the spring set crossed to the main the wheel rate will go up for a inch or two. You can the motion squared and do the math for the amount of each for a total.

You also may be asking about my triple rate. It has a little higher ride height and crosses over to the 215 in time to get a good wheel rate. It is a softer set up to take advantage of different terrain and speed. Slower bumpier ridding which the triple rate will handle better than the 11/240.
I will be adding a 350 tender over the 240 for a 11/350/240. This will allow for a quick change between areas in case some razor shows up and I feel the need for speed. This will give a combined rate of 142 and let it travel two inches before it crosses over to the 240.
Take about fun with springs. All these setting has to comparable with the new rear set up.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
link to on line calc
https://www.hypercoils.com/spring-rate-calculator/


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Short version.
Use wheel weight to dial in a new front set up not spring rate.
Use wheel to find you spring.
Lower motion ratio requires a higher shock valving.
Note: stock handle's well so use it as a base line. Honda engineering is hard to beat.

More to come on the wheel rate.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Here is a pic to show how easy it is to find a wheel rate setting with out using an online calculator.

When you look at each set look for the constants and what changed in each line of the set.
an example would be D1: moving this changes the shock angle effecting the motion ratio numbers while D2 and Spring rate remain unchanged.

Look over each to get an idea of this all works in relation ship to each other. You will see it is pretty easy when formatted in a spreed sheet. Any one can do this with excel on there computer and build on it from there. It will make your life much easier when playing with your front end. Been a lot of talk over the years about extending the front out 2" now you can play with the idea and the impact on the shock and how to solve for the added increase in width or at least the shock anyway. Just use wheel rate to start with.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
After you mole over the three posted charts Look hard at the changed line compared to the wheel rate line.
See how each adjustment has what effect on the wheels rate.
I use a cheat set. see pic


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
What I see is the easiest way to increase wheel rate for the greatest effect with out buying new springs is move the D1 out toward D2 by one inch. This would be equal to using a 298.5 rate spring in the 8/16 position for D1/D2. Instead we use a 9/16 position for D1/D2.

Is it getting easier to understand now?
Now you have a handle on the wheel we can ask our-self do we need an increase or decrease or just use the base line wheel Rate.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
In case you you went UM. AHHHHHH


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Teaser pic of what up next, any guesses what that might be.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7701
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
Teaser pic of what up next, any guesses what that might be.


Droop ??
CO


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
CO, is plays a part in it. I just like posting pics of my pretty shock kinda like your flywheel puller. That should go on a shelf of CO stuff like a trophy. I know I would, its pretty.
Did you see the lines on the ground?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Back to the headache.
Got some work down and had lunch
Thought I would show you a real world example of how quick and easy this works.
One item to mention is a tire and wheel change. My sand set up is lighter, Just FYI.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7701
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
adnoh wrote:
I just like posting pics of my pretty shock kinda like your flywheel puller. That should go on a shelf of CO stuff like a trophy.


LOL
Well off to work now. Buddy called said bandsaw blew up.
Time to go play the hero again. Business down.
CO


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