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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
I would to here input from the board on choice sand/dirt front and rear. and how well they preform.

There has been some post in the past about pro and cons on tire/wheel choices just wanted to throw smoe info out there.

The pilot used in this test is a stock wheel base with works shoccks, HRD power block, pipe and carb. I myself have chose stock front and rear for dirt I use both stock steel and after market 1.90 AL. The stock steel wheels are a little heavier then the AL. I went with as close to stock offset as I could so the handling didnt suffer. On the handling issue I tried different offsets and found that the front offset needed to be as close as you can to stock or the bike just dosent like to handle well in cornors. The front developed a push and unlesh you braked early and set up wide you found your self driving up and over the turn and where slow on exit. The work shocks did help with this alowing the front to compress better during the first spring stage and then holding the cornor as it transitioned to the second stage allowing the front to drive thru with out the push. One thing to mention on the shock setting is that if to soon of transition into second stage the push will return and too late into the transition and a understeer will develop as the rear tries to come around. I did discover that a 1" offset in the rear with stock front offset did alow for a quicker second rate transation alowing faster entry speed and holding the cornor. One thning about the front Al wheels if you hit hard on the front off camber they like to pop the bead loose. Like "H" said "you would think the wheel MFG should be able to provide a better bead or as well as stock". Yes the stell wheel bead does hold better than AL. I have not used bead locks and would like feed back on them. I feeel bead locks with close to stock offset would be a good choice for the front. A side note on pressures, the stock front using a 1" wider offset in the rear works shocks did require a pressure stager 4.5 in front and 5.5 in the rear. I found this to be optimum for loose dirt and sandy loom. While playing with the rear pressures I did find that 4.5 is too low for dirt conditins. The low rearpressure in a roller section got a little sideways underpower and poped the bead sending up sidways and over costing me a new mirror. When testing one should remove all possable expensive body and frame parts just in case.

Using the same pilot In the sand with the exception of clutch set up I use a 22x8x10 single rib sand tire on AL close to stock as I can in the front and 22x10x9 prowedge ( which measure 23.5 inches when inflated)in the rear using a 9x9 Al 1.90 6x3 offset in the rear. Prowedge!common question when others see my tire choice. Rember my pilot is using a stock A cylinder bore of 80.016. with milled head and 39mm carb. My tire choice wass due to the power to weight ratios of the odysse and pilot. Yes I used thes same tires on the odysse of the past and ever 250r's. The prowedge tire is a v-shaped flotation type of tire that was developed for snow which I run reversed for better traction. I found that the different types of traditional paddle tires take a lot of HP. The paddle require a heavy throttle and provide excelent forward bite which do cause some turing and upshifting issues under speed on less powered machines. The prowedge will not hole shot a set of paddles which to me no big deal I do not drag race. One thing the prowedge type does provide is the less rotating mass and insted of digging chunck and tossing them at your friends which by the way is fun the prowdge will try to get on top and sty there while still digging under low speed conditions. This is to say at low speed where the contact patch is at it' createst it is dispersing the wight to a wider area and under speed this contact path is of less area. This allows a quicker up shift and a better power to wieght ratio when take rotating mass and resistance into the equation the clutch will run a higer gear and a lighter throttle position at speed. The prowdge tread pattern allows for good side bite while turings due to the tread running down the side wall. When the pilot/odysse is slamed into the cornor and the clutch down shift to a lower gear the side bite contact patch allows the bike to roll thru the cornor under power and acclerate verses forward throw of the traditional paddle. I refer to the as rolling resistance the less restiance the HP it take to get and keep it moving. Ever let of the gas with paddles you feel a instant restiance. Ok for straight line drags and hill climbs not good for high speed trail ridding with under powered machine it robs HP. Tire pressure can effect hadling when using this tire as well. Less air in dry conditions and more air in wet allowing the bike to be dialed in for high speed runs. If the bike gets a little squirly when at a dry conditin a 1 lb adjustment( 6.5lb t0 5.5lb) will dial it in and provide more forward bite and better turning. The same for wet conditins If runnig 5.5 lb in the rear the front will tend to lift in the cornors causing a push and slow the up shift raising the pressure changing the contact patch will correct the problem.

Talking with Marc he did find a copy of the prowedge which is a 10" instead of 9" which would provide a better close to stock offset on the wheel. I bet we can get him to post link to review tread pattern for those who say prowedge!Good job Marc.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Where is the link to the prowedge?

I always liked and ran the stock Honda tires for everything and feel they worked great over all, now you cant get the new rears any more I need a replacement for the sand, my stock rears still have enough tread for everything but sand so I will get many more years out of the stock rears (have 3 good used pairs) ...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:39 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Hoser. The AMS Zipper 22x10x10 tires looked to be compatable with the Ohstu Power Wedge 500 with the exception of the 10" diameter.Heres what the dealer had to say about them... Lightweight two-ply casing reduces unsprung weight and increases flotation in sand and snow conditions. Casing expands at high rates of speed for added traction and stability. Shock-absorbing casing provides a smoother ride. Natural rubber compound runs cooler in the desert and stays flexible in snow; increased puncture resistance in both climates.Design allows reversal of tire rotation for increased traction in a variety of conditions.
I guess I will find out when they arrive and I get them installed. I am hoping for better flotation. I was using Kendas Sand Geckos on my FL350. IMO they were awful. They tended to dig the entire time from out of the hole to WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Then during decelleration lots of resistance. I will be ordering the AMS,as seen at http://www.rockymountainatv.com/home.do ... .westring1 shortly along with a pair of Douglas .160 10X8 with 3X5 offset. I was going to get the .125 but with the light to moderate jumping i do and if the mood is right who know what kind of jumping ha ha,I decided to go with .160. I will post a performance reply when I get them installed and have a chance to get to Little Sahara to run them which will hopefully be in a couple weeks.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:48 pm 
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stix9567 wrote:
Hoser. The AMS Zipper 22x10x10 tires looked to be compatable with the Ohstu Power Wedge 500 with the exception of the 10" diameter.Heres what the dealer had to say about them... Lightweight two-ply casing reduces unsprung weight and increases flotation in sand and snow conditions. Casing expands at high rates of speed for added traction and stability. Shock-absorbing casing provides a smoother ride. Natural rubber compound runs cooler in the desert and stays flexible in snow; increased puncture resistance in both climates.Design allows reversal of tire rotation for increased traction in a variety of conditions.
I guess I will find out when they arrive and I get them installed. I am hoping for better flotation. I was using Kendas Sand Geckos on my FL350. IMO they were awful. They tended to dig the entire time from out of the hole to WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Then during decelleration lots of resistance. I will be ordering the AMS,as seen at http://www.rockymountainatv.com/home.do ... .westring1 shortly along with a pair of Douglas .160 10X8 with 3X5 offset. I was going to get the .125 but with the light to moderate jumping i do and if the mood is right who know what kind of jumping ha ha,I decided to go with .160. I will post a performance reply when I get them installed and have a chance to get to Little Sahara to run them which will hopefully be in a couple weeks.


I have seen them before I cant find where it says how tall the tread is have you seen it?

Here is the part I don't like....

Quote:
great tire for sand. Had problem with it staying on rim. Kept loosing air. ran at 3.5 lbs. and it wanted to roll off rim and lose air. Had to re-air a few times. For performance I give it a 4. Just be careful when fishtailing.


I wonder if using the OEM bead will hold them better or maybe need to use bead glue on them?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:36 pm 
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I did a search and found this page showing tread depth for the AMS Zipper. http://www.amstires.com/productDetails. ... ry_id=1297 .If link does not work the tread depth was listed as 18/32. I just ordered a pair with .160 douglas AL at Rockymountainatv and used GarlicGregs code for 20 clams off. Also when searching for thetread depth I found a website http://www.partsmag.com/0406/AMS-0406/A ... -0406.html stating that the AMS Zipper is an "OEM-like" replacement for the Ohstu. Guess we can take that with a grain of salt until it put to a real life dune test. I did read the 4 reviews and was concerned with the tire breaking bead. that's not good. We can only hope he had crappy wheels, he might be a big guy, maybe he caught a rut...Again you have to consider his application. Anyhow hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:21 pm 
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Hers is some pics with the prowedge on wifes


Attachments:
s Pilot.JPG
s Pilot.JPG [ 84.64 KiB | Viewed 975 times ]
s Pilot,rear stance.JPG
s Pilot,rear stance.JPG [ 81.37 KiB | Viewed 975 times ]
side view of prowedge.JPG
side view of prowedge.JPG [ 75.26 KiB | Viewed 975 times ]
Top view of prowedge.JPG
Top view of prowedge.JPG [ 74.42 KiB | Viewed 975 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:31 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I have seen these on Richards Pilot and he had full control, was able to keep up with the tigers and spit sand all over my little ol ppe (purple pilot eater) I might try a set of these when my side winder paddles I have now wear thin... the side winders worked well today at buttercup dunes in California!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
AMS Zipper 22X10X10. Great rear sand tire for my FL350 Odyssey IMO

Image
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Looks like a new set for Adnoh. I think we Stixs and I may need to setup course and do time trills then switch tire and run again to get a haldle on the two. I really like the 10" and they tend to look a little flatter across the tops. Time to scale them stixs.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:39 pm 
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Good eye, I didnt notice the flatness,6-8lbs pressure in them as shown. Time trials you say? Hmmm, you just want to show off. Ha.... Yes I agree, good ID.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Nice looking tire... Do they make it in a 24"? size? with the 10" rim size? You can also send these rims out to have them converted to true beadlocks... ATVRacing does them if you feel the bead breaks loose to often??? I almost drove to waynoka today to blow off some steam, but decided to save the trip for when others are there... I tend to get lost easily LOL


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:55 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
here is what I am currently useing
http://www.amstires.com/productDetails. ... ry_id=1295


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:35 am 
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Did some surfing and couldnt find the Zipper in 24". What does ATV racing charge to convert to beadlock, is that feasable or would it be better to just buy a pair of bead lock rims.
So far I have not broke bead with 6lbs. I ran it pretty hard, although never slid the bike sideways hard but made some good sharp turns. Under what circumstances will the tire usually loose bead?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:21 am 
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Stix to get an accurate measurment of the tire in dia. Jack up the rear,run string around the center then measure this will give accurate of dia used to calculate gear ratios. As a side note if you measure across the tread using a level while odysse on ground this will provide you with the height or what I call contact patch area. What you ask. If you roll the odysse with the zippers does the contact patch change in height. Know do that with the paddle. You will see the diff. Know attach scale to front end and pull on level ground see how much force is require to roll the chassie with both tires. Know think about how the Engine and drive trane intrupets the force in relation ship to contach patch and dia. I call that the KA CHUNCK factor. measure the distance between the paddles The zipper contact patch area is less the the area on the paddle. This will require a lower gear and more HP to turn. Think about the flat part of the paddle, using the level again whent he paddle is at is KA CHUNCK stage of rotation then measure. I would bet the distance is decreased and the zipper is taller. For low powred machine this will gain them an advantage to there HP. To say this will alow a high run out settings on clutch and achieve a higher top gear. If you like to climb and run at a slower pace then the paddle may be your weapon of choice with a lower gaer and bigger bore. The eassiest way to increase torgue is to increase displacment, rember where alking KA CHUNCK. If i was running a big bore fully ported then the zippers may not work the best. The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) will over power them Requireing the bead locks. Out of hole preformance and out of cornor preformance will suffer. Also be sure to weight them on there rims aired up to running pressures. Add this to the KA CHUNCK facotr and dia. youll get a good handle on what to run where and how and with what. A good balance of Flotation,Dia, Weight( Rotating mass) and Rolling restance in relation to HP will make a hugh different on preformance. I call this Mechinal effency on the drive train. There more at play and to consider like alignment ect. but I'll keep it simple. Ask a trucker what a trailer miss aligned and tires with flat spots does to his fuel econmy and preformance( increased rolling resistance). Just some thought on the tire choice.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
stix9567 wrote:
Did some surfing and couldnt find the Zipper in 24". What does ATV racing charge to convert to beadlock, is that feasable or would it be better to just buy a pair of bead lock rims.
So far I have not broke bead with 6lbs. I ran it pretty hard, although never slid the bike sideways hard but made some good sharp turns. Under what circumstances will the tire usually loose bead?


I can't remember what they charge, it was reasonable. but I haven't lost a bead on the 190's yet, but like the added security of not worrying about loosing a tire??? I keep my air at 4 or 5 LBS


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:59 pm 
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stix9567 wrote:
AMS Zipper 22X10X10. Great rear sand tire for my FL350 Odyssey IMO


I need to update this post. My good ol buddy Adnoh had the privelidge of joyriding my FL350, after sliding through an awesome right hand turn in the sand, right front tire lifted off the ground about 12 inches,then, the bead broke loose on the left rear Zipper. The tire had 6 LBS of pressure, so beadlocks will be necessary for the Zippers. You might get by with more tire pressure but I think beadlock wheels are in order. I have not had the bead break on me but I have not lifted the front wheel off the ground more than 6 inches while making a turn in the sand.[URL=http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010001yt0.jpg]Image[/URL]
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Sorry! I do have an Idea on how to avoid bead locks. The trick will also increase dia for top end and decrease deflection. The trick will cost ya about $12.00 a tire. I know, quite teasing. Its a tube 22x11x10 run at 6.5 lb's. Yes I run that combo. That may explain the tire dia diff from zippers and why the stay on rim while steering left while turnig right. What? yes break hard pitching left from bottom to mid of bank turn then power thru as the shock rebounds squareing off on exit. This may require a new front shock for the DS1 to keep it from tipping. A good dual rate front should do it using stock tires with a 1/2" toe out setting. I will read your tire post to be sure. Just a thought. Was fun just wish it would have lasted longer. The front stockers heat up quick and started bottoming in turns. The rears set up well. Curoious what spings on back dual or tripple. If tripple maybe a transition to second sping sooner would help in cornors coming in hot. Clutch seting spot on.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:10 am 
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Great.Id much rather invest in dual rate works for front rather than beadlocks. What is "decrease deflection"?Dread Sled...Catchy. During the resto I was calling it generic Ody 2 because Zacs was the first one I purchased so his was Ody 1, I can live with DS1 and DS2. Yea I was having a blast Piloting the Pilot and was just as enjoyable watching "DS2" get a work out.Ill give the tube consideration, although Ill need a crash test dummy to take it for its test run cause Im not agressive enough, YET, to break bead. Pretty sure rear Works are dual rate cause only two springs.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:27 am 
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adnoh wrote:
Sorry! I do have an Idea on how to avoid bead locks. The trick will also increase dia for top end and decrease deflection. The trick will cost ya about $12.00 a tire. I know, quite teasing. Its a tube 22x11x10 run at 6.5 lb's. Yes I run that combo. That may explain the tire dia diff from zippers and why the stay on rim while steering left while turnig right. What? yes break hard pitching left from bottom to mid of bank turn then power thru as the shock rebounds squareing off on exit. This may require a new front shock for the DS1 to keep it from tipping. A good dual rate front should do it using stock tires with a 1/2" toe out setting. I will read your tire post to be sure. Just a thought. Was fun just wish it would have lasted longer. The front stockers heat up quick and started bottoming in turns. The rears set up well. Curoious what spings on back dual or tripple. If tripple maybe a transition to second sping sooner would help in cornors coming in hot. Clutch seting spot on.


You try the Zippers with the stock Pilot rims to see if they will hold the bead?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:17 pm 
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hoser wrote:
adnoh wrote:
Sorry! I do have an Idea on how to avoid bead locks. The trick will also increase dia for top end and decrease deflection. The trick will cost ya about $12.00 a tire. I know, quite teasing. Its a tube 22x11x10 run at 6.5 lb's. Yes I run that combo. That may explain the tire dia diff from zippers and why the stay on rim while steering left while turnig right. What? yes break hard pitching left from bottom to mid of bank turn then power thru as the shock rebounds squareing off on exit. This may require a new front shock for the DS1 to keep it from tipping. A good dual rate front should do it using stock tires with a 1/2" toe out setting. I will read your tire post to be sure. Just a thought. Was fun just wish it would have lasted longer. The front stockers heat up quick and started bottoming in turns. The rears set up well. Curoious what spings on back dual or tripple. If tripple maybe a transition to second sping sooner would help in cornors coming in hot. Clutch seting spot on.


You try the Zippers with the stock Pilot rims to see if they will hold the bead?


I found this old thread while surfing. I have been using these AMS zippers fo a few years now at Little Sahara dunes. I have had them on various grades of Douglas and ITP rims, havnt tried the stock rims though. I have not lost a bead yet on any aftermarket rims running them on Pilots or 350's and I do run tubes.


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