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 Post subject: Mrs. Adnoh's siezure
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Well as some know The wifes pilot sized due to Drakemans and Tedpilots fastness( her words). I failed to read the leading indacators to the sieze, shame on me however the bright side my favorite, new parts. She had stated She needs more power. I felt really proud and started shopping. Ya some quick math a call to Honda shop and the parts are here.

New part include "C" cylinder,head and piston,rings, pin clips,and beraing, New crank, crank bearings,seals and complete gasket set. New intake boot and reeds, hour meter and barons tach, new HRD power block and driven goodies. The Old motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) was on it first over bore with woods porting. I have done some pre limb math on carb looking 38mm. I will use new porting and head specs using stock pipe. She siad power but not louder. Darn no top end pull. I will try to achieve a power range of 5500 to 6800. The stock pipe will be limit the amount of exhaust port duration and head pressure as well squish area. The exhisting head is a CW racing that dates back to 93. Back in 93 we cleaned up ports installed head and added power block which allowed some whelly time in the back yard and the church parking lot. It didnt take no time until we started adding weight to keep front end down as well as new shocks. The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) then recieved it first dose of porting in 98 when the rings went away and lost compression. New bore to .25 honda piston new bearing and all the goodies. A post ride compression check in 04 showed signed of possable ring damage. Pulled jug and yeap top ring was on it way out. The bore was still in tollerence so I honed and installed new .25 piston, rings, pin bearings, clips and seals. Ran well up to Last LS trip 3-08 where it went away. All in all not bad.

Why new cylinder and new parts. I like a new set up to free from possible damage from old parts and She runs he motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) hard. The new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) will be tight and be ran hard. I plan to build a DCP set up using the stock pipe altering her stinger dia to make full use of the porting. The new stock head will be cut 2mm instead of the piped DCP head which is 3mm cut and squished as well as fulll DCP porting less .5mm on exhaust port and 38mm carb verses 39 mm carb. Her Hrd has some time so a new HRD will be install using DCP sping set up as well as the driven will get worked over with spring change. Her current shock set up is a soft set up She tend to turn in late brake hard allowing clutch to down shift to a way low gear and power out as well as square off a lot verses rolling thru under power. A first rate spring change will help offset the increase of entrance speed and power out so she don't push over.

I will try to document as much as I can with limited pic skills. I know every one likes pics so the disasembly has yet to take place. I will first port new cylinder and do head work then break down motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and start rebuild. The rebuild will include the exhisting crank being rebuilt and the exhisting cylinder being bored to .50 honda and set aside for back up and in case we go woods riding in Arkansas, Tennesse and the local river. The stinger dia testing will occure on a stock 89 pipe using a new atvr silencer saving the stck 90 intact for the woods cylinder. This will make two rebuilt cranks and cylinder and heads ready just in case the expermint fails. After all I,am a BHY( Back Yard Hacker). I have read a litte about some different head gaskets that are avalible and will do some bench testing on comp,squish and vacume.

I have had an optunity to look over a set of new sand viper rear and they are really close to the prowedge. The tread (paddle) tapper worries me a litte and the side wall flex may be greater at lower pressures. There is a note on the tire that states bead locks are to be used. On the bright side the new tires do come in ten inch verses nine inch on the prowedge. I'am looking forward to Stix's ride report on them. As always any suggestion and comments welcome


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3173
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Cant wait 2 C your BYH progress. Sounds like its goint to B a learning experience 4 ya. Im going to start the Zippers off at 8-10 LBS, gett a little roudy then work down in pressure from there. With the rain expected early in the week I would think the sand will be "hard", so I would think this would be a good time to test for the need of Bead Lock wheels. HAve fun w the rebuild..Marc.P.S. R U going make it to LS. We'll be ther Thurs morn thru Fri...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Picked up parts to day. Some bad news the "C" cylinder no longer avalible. I took piston home to measure up. The new piston measured 79.925. Time to choose "B" or "A". Been doing math all nighton Engine pramanters. Any suggestion on cylinder from the board. The math likes the "A" better. The "B" will provide a tighter fit still allowing propper clearence. I will post some more when complete these are prlimb #s I will have to bench the new cylinder when it arrives to calculate the CR and intake and exhasut port duration in degrees



Limits limits Min bore max bore
Tobey piston 3-08 measured at OD min max


Piston OD 10 mm up from skirt 79.925 0.080 0.092 80.005 80.017

Piston crown 17 mm down fron crown 79.516 79.596 79.608


Swell factor tolerence 0.409 19.56% 22.49%

Bores A Avalible 80.013 80.018
B Avalible 80.007 80.012
C Not Avalible 80.000 80.006

Comp increase level% 12.00%

BHP 62.2888704 69.76353485
mechianl effency 70% 70%
Engine output HP 43.60220928 48.83447439


PSI 150 168
STROKE IN FEET 0.25916 0.25916

Square inch 7.776 7.776
RPM 6800 6800
sub = 2055532.723 2302196.65
div by 33,000 33000 33000 33,000 constance for 1- horsepower
BHP 62.2888704 69.76353485

effecny 70% 18.68666112 20.92906045
Engine BHP 43.60220928 48.83447439

Bemp 165 168 171 185
Woods Dune DCP Race Cm piston speed
0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166
3.11 3.11 3.11 3.11 L stoke In inches
6500 6800 7300 7700 N Crank speed in rpm
power range 3355.69 3510.568 3768.698 3975.202 Cm
bearing stress ok safe borderline max


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I got dizzy reading all that... lol looks like the misses will be riding right behind the draks!!!


adnoh wrote:
Picked up parts to day. Some bad news the "C" cylinder no longer avalible. I took piston home to measure up. The new piston measured 79.925. Time to choose "B" or "A". Been doing math all nighton Engine pramanters. Any suggestion on cylinder from the board. The math likes the "A" better. The "B" will provide a tighter fit still allowing propper clearence. I will post some more when complete these are prlimb #s I will have to bench the new cylinder when it arrives to calculate the CR and intake and exhasut port duration in degrees



Limits limits Min bore max bore
Tobey piston 3-08 measured at OD min max


Piston OD 10 mm up from skirt 79.925 0.080 0.092 80.005 80.017

Piston crown 17 mm down fron crown 79.516 79.596 79.608


Swell factor tolerence 0.409 19.56% 22.49%

Bores A Avalible 80.013 80.018
B Avalible 80.007 80.012
C Not Avalible 80.000 80.006

Comp increase level% 12.00%

BHP 62.2888704 69.76353485
mechianl effency 70% 70%
Engine output HP 43.60220928 48.83447439


PSI 150 168
STROKE IN FEET 0.25916 0.25916

Square inch 7.776 7.776
RPM 6800 6800
sub = 2055532.723 2302196.65
div by 33,000 33000 33000 33,000 constance for 1- horsepower
BHP 62.2888704 69.76353485

effecny 70% 18.68666112 20.92906045
Engine BHP 43.60220928 48.83447439

Bemp 165 168 171 185
Woods Dune DCP Race Cm piston speed
0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166
3.11 3.11 3.11 3.11 L stoke In inches
6500 6800 7300 7700 N Crank speed in rpm
power range 3355.69 3510.568 3768.698 3975.202 Cm
bearing stress ok safe borderline max


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
[quote="Turbotexas"]I got dizzy reading all that... lol looks like the misses will be riding right behind the draks!!!

Who knows, maybe in front? She going to retire the RZR, or just ride it somewhere else?

Richard, like Turbo says, all that math makes my head hurt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
I do belive the only thng to run in front or close behind the tigers are another tiger/drake. I will do my best thou to give her the best I know how to do. She cant get that lucky on the razor It will get made over after her pilot is up and running. Sorry for the lenghtly math I only posted a fifth of the results on piston, just wait untill I get to work on the cylinder and head I,am refering to G-max and CR. G-max will help on CR and CR will help on CC of dome and squish band width as well as exhaust duration in degrees using stock pipe fitted with new stinger. If you the board would like I just post results. The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) will take at least another 30 to 40 hours of math.Then I will start porting and work on intake strenght and carb size as well as cylinder stuffing. I know babble babble. I 'am trying to keep it simple as I can for Turbo,He like it that way. By the way Turbo send me some #s and run the math on your bike. Sorry drakman alredy doing your and so far very impressed. The Guy,s or Gals that engineered that motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )), WOW! I need to go back to high school and start over. The ninth grade math class I took to gradgurate high school just don,t cut it. So what do you guys think "A" or "B". Come on Turbo it a 50 /50 and I will some one to blame. Coin toss or what.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
I do belive the only thng to run in front or close behind the tigers are another tiger/drake. I will do my best thou to give her the best I know how to do. She cant get that lucky on the razor It will get made over after her pilot is up and running. Sorry for the lenghtly math I only posted a fifth of the results on piston, just wait untill I get to work on the cylinder and head I,am refering to G-max and CR. G-max will help on CR and CR will help on CC of dome and squish band width as well as exhaust duration in degrees using stock pipe fitted with new stinger. If you the board would like I just post results. The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) will take at least another 30 to 40 hours of math.Then I will start porting and work on intake strenght and carb size as well as cylinder stuffing. I know babble babble. I 'am trying to keep it simple as I can for Turbo,He like it that way. By the way Turbo send me some #s and run the math on your bike. Sorry drakman alredy doing your and so far very impressed. The Guy,s or Gals that engineered that motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )), WOW! I need to go back to high school and start over. The ninth grade math class I took to gradgurate high school just don,t cut it. So what do you guys think "A" or "B". Come on Turbo it a 50 /50 and I will some one to blame. Coin toss or what.


Order the smallest ID cylinder they have.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
adnoh wrote:
So what do you guys think "A" or "B". Come on Turbo it a 50 /50 and I will some one to blame. Coin toss or what.


Order the smallest ID cylinder they have.



yea what he said!!!

Hurry up and get it done I am coming to Little sahara within the next month cause I am so ready to ride...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks "H" and Turbo I took your advise and ordered both this way I,am right eitherway, I hope so much for 50/50. If the cold ones get flowing during the proting I have a back up in case. The real reason is if the piston I order is any indacation of what I might get I will have two to choose from and go with the best fit. I really do not care fot the way they suppersed a number to what they want you to have with out telluing you. So I question the measurement of the "A" and "B" cylinder and the rings. One set for all ? I thought I bought a Honda not a one size fits all. I bet my gaps will be all off. I ordered the "C" set up when, they the Honda shop said it was discountied but we have the piston and rings. A big red flag was beating me in the face. I replied I don't want them if the cylinder not avalible. They repied this will fit them all. To which I repied I be the judge of that. This is why I looked it over real close. When some one tells me this is standand for all three when there is three to choose from with out a real good ansawer buyer beware. I can know see why a lot of failures are taken place. When trust is put in a shop to supply the right parts which they take no responsable for It makes a guy wonder. What a shame, the shop I trusted for twenty eight years tried to throw me a bad bone. I guess I'll spit it out and try a new bone. What really got my goat was when he stated youll need to pay for this before you can look them over or leave with it. I ask him to check his computor on the account, which states no limit. This guy was really starting to get under my skin. He even had the nerve to tell me that's just the way it is.I finally told him if ihe continues down this path I will call my good friend over here to explian to him the errors of his way. I had to even quit was I was doing to help a customer with a helmet question because he was to busy jacking with me rather than taking a second to help a potential buyer of a new bike for his son. Luckly the guy next to him got off the phone and interseeded and informed him that he should do as I ask. I will have a heart to heart backed up by data with the owner and supervisors when he gets back in town. This is bad for PR. Oh well just another day at the office. I wont bother you with the rest of the story and what they were trying to sell the guy standing next to me. What a joke, "try these maybe they will fit" I can see he will be back buy a new cylinder. Again, thanks Adnoh


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Did you get anything done today??? get ready to go to Little Sahara soon!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Oh goody goody, The cylinders are here. I'll pick them up in the mornig. I ended up digging in the dirt all day, five and ten feet deep. Man my back hurts. It will take all day to bench them and do pre port math. I was looking over the box the new crank came in and it was damaged. I now have done run out measurements, theres two more hours without a cold one. I hope to pull motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) sunday and take picturs for board to say "way to go and enore the signs of loosing compression, gee". I i,amm going to repost previous data it posted all funkie it's no wonder I gave you guy's hedaches.

Tobey,s 3-08 motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))

Limits limits Min bore max bore
Tobey piston 3-08 measured at OD min max


Piston OD 10 mm up from skirt 79.925 0.080 0.092 80.005 80.017

Piston crown 17 mm down fron crown 79.516 79.596 79.608


Swell factor tolerence 0.409 19.56% 22.49%

Bores A Avalible 80.013 80.018
B Avalible 80.007 80.012
C Not Avalible 80.000 80.006
Comp increase level% 12.00%

Bhp 62.2888704 69.76353485
mechianl effency 70% 70%
Engine output HP 43.60220928 48.83447439
PSI p x 150 168
STOKE IN FEET l x 0.25916 0.25916
Square inces,piston a x 7.776 7.776
n x 6800 6800
sub = 2055532.723 2302197
div by 33,000 33000 33000 33,000 constance for 1- horsepower
BHP 62.2888704 69.76353

effecny 70% 18.68666112 20.92906
Engine BHP 43.60220928 48.83447
Bemp 165 168 171 185
Woods Dune DCP Race Cm piston speed
0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166 0.166
3.11 3.11 3.11 3.11 L stoke In inches
6500 6800 7300 7700 N Crank speed in rpm
power range 3355.69 3510.568 3768.698 3975.202 Cm
bearing stress good safe borderline max


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Sorry I can not post it right I will call my Daughter to get me set straight. Maybe sunday have more info. and pics.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
As the comic says "get-r-done". I finally recieved one cylinder today. I started tare down. I'am glad I ordered lots of parts. I was right about the rings going away and cooking the insides. The big and little end are gone. The little end looked like it was cooked preaty good and the big end is was locked up. I'am going to chart data but will type in for reading since I cant seam to post XLS correctly.

First Bore ware: 10mm form top 80.23,48.75mm down above exhaust port80.24mm, 80.61mm from botom below exhaust port, 30mm from bottom 80.28mm, bottom of bore, 80.23mm.

Ring thickness: New: top ring and bottom ring 1.46mm, old top ring 1.44mm, old bottom,1.44

Ring gap:at 12.55mm from top of cylinder top ring.70mm, bottom ring .65mm,at 47.70 above exhaust port, top ring .70mm and bottom ring .65mm, At 79.56 from top below exhaust port, top ring .75mm and bottom ring .70mm, At 132.41mm from top, top ring .70mm and bottom ring .65mm

Piston pin: form clutch side to center to stator side. 19.99 od,20mm od,19.98od

Little end ID X pattern from 45 degrees form center of rod measures clutch side to to center to stator side. A=left top of X and B=right top of X. Clutch A=24.98,ClutchB=25.01,Center A=25.03,Center B=25.06,Stator A=25.01,Stator B=24.99


The crank will need to rebuilt and a new bore for that cylinder. I concluded that the exhaust gases cooked it but good. I documented the heat pattern on crank at close to top dead center where the flash over enighted the crank mixture loosing lubracation taking the bearing apart than being pumped to top taking out piston compressing the dome down on rings sticking them int here grooves and then it really got hot in the case. The piston showes signes of the flame front travling right down the side of the piston that recieved damage from big end parts. The math showes the rigs cap and bore ware were at the max when she let go. I say shame on me for running her that long between rebuilds. I now have new HR meter for hers like I run on mine to prevent me from in the future running so many HR's on the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) before tear down. As I split case I will take better pics.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
some pics


Attachments:
File comment: wifes bike
s Pilot.JPG
s Pilot.JPG [ 84.64 KiB | Viewed 925 times ]
File comment: Her motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) in bike
s motor.JPG
s motor.JPG [ 88.48 KiB | Viewed 925 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:03 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Got to do couple at a time it times out.


Attachments:
File comment: COme back I'll trat ya better
Motor trying to get away.JPG
Motor trying to get away.JPG [ 75.92 KiB | Viewed 924 times ]
File comment: Head coming off, no not mine
ready to pull head.JPG
ready to pull head.JPG [ 72.76 KiB | Viewed 924 times ]
File comment: Nothing like redoing a head
Ouch! bearing parts damge to head.JPG
Ouch! bearing parts damge to head.JPG [ 80.1 KiB | Viewed 924 times ]
File comment: It was wore out anyway
Piston crown beat up around squish area.JPG
Piston crown beat up around squish area.JPG [ 57.12 KiB | Viewed 924 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Now its get good I also have altentive theroy but damage does not support.


Attachments:
File comment: not good
Damage from big end rod bearing failure.JPG
Damage from big end rod bearing failure.JPG [ 47.84 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
File comment: blow by effect heading to crank
blow by gases effect on litte rod end(cooked).JPG
blow by gases effect on litte rod end(cooked).JPG [ 48.58 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
File comment: Shime damaged from siezure
Damaged shime, Big end bearing failure.JPG
Damaged shime, Big end bearing failure.JPG [ 39.66 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
File comment: Hate when this happens good by little end
Flash over signs from ring blow by gases.JPG
Flash over signs from ring blow by gases.JPG [ 36.72 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
I know you want more. Baz loves pics.


Attachments:
File comment: Good by big end. notice the crank location in time, yep right after top dead center.
Blueing from heat of bearing failure.JPG
Blueing from heat of bearing failure.JPG [ 44.72 KiB | Viewed 908 times ]
File comment: Um
Other side not as bad.JPG
Other side not as bad.JPG [ 40.05 KiB | Viewed 908 times ]
File comment: ya tools
just some tools used for tear down measurments.JPG
just some tools used for tear down measurments.JPG [ 90.99 KiB | Viewed 908 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
look for a micro option on your camera for closeups it should have a tulip emblem... they are blurry???
that or quit spilling cold beer on your camera???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3421
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Thank god it's not ME then! :-)
Had a Barbie n CoronaThon on last night.
Eyes still a bit blurry,but not by that much! :-)
Thanks for the pics Rich,but sunlight,steady hands and correct setting as Turbo states would make me feel a whole lot better! :-) ...Baz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Australia
bugeye59 wrote:
Thank god it's not ME then! :-)
Had a Barbie n CoronaThon on last night.
Eyes still a bit blurry,but not by that much! :-)
Thanks for the pics Rich,but sunlight,steady hands and correct setting as Turbo states would make me feel a whole lot better! :-) ...Baz


Hey Barry what you doing drinking that Cats Piss ?
On a different topic got the new Hilux and must say it shits all over the old Triton.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3421
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Cat's piss? :shock:
I hate cat's piss.
There's NO accounting for your bad taste Ted. :-)
Has a WEE bit more power hey.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3421
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Hey Rich,could you take a few pics of the Hondaline Bars for me? Please.
I need to make up a new set of nerfs as the taper on these funnel the other guy's tyre INTO the front!
This is what happened to me last race meet.
My mate Ian hit me midship with his rear tyre,then it ran along down to the A arm,then ontop of my front tyre!
The nerfs look good,but are not functional or practical for racing.
I need to make a rear and front setup as well.
Thanks Mate!...Baz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
What good is a tool if I don't no how to use it. Why didn't they put a piston on it instead of a flower. I thought it was the tree huger function. I want the dirt funtion. To me they look normial. Try a sixer and then look again I bet they will look better. Sorry! I will re shoot and post. I will also take close up of he nerfs and get you some mounting points location and meassurements. Talk to "H" about the front mounting plate he mention that the front bar mounts under the frame and could get you hung up on something so a skid would need to be added. for the LT pilot they may need to be pushed out and up a little with a middle crush bar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Thank 's Turbo I owe ya one or two. I took some new for those who did not want to view after a sixer. I'll try this.


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blueing at TDC.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
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